Python Owners speak up PLEASE

[darshu]

Then the solution is to tone down the running costs and costs of loss. Making an invulnerable 'giant-dad' ship is not the solution.

I agree but it was never invulnerable although people try to claim it was. Significantly lowering the price would imo be the easiest solution but if they want to have those insane costs they have to be justified or there will be no reason to use them.

 

[crushdepth]

Balanced ships are a good idea. And a balanced python gunship should ROFL stomp a balanced viper or cobra. Owners of same should fear to take one on solo and be looking to wolf pack them with minimum two or three ships.

If we end up with a situation where fighter jock Joe has a reasonable chance of winning a solo attack on a python you know where this leads? Boredom. The game needs hard targets and balancing doesn't mean a flaky little ship you bought at K-Mart should have a hope in hell of taking on the top end.

Case in point - the "Elite" anaconda missions. That's the toughest challenge on offer? Yay.

 

[darshu]

Balanced ships are a good idea. And a balanced python gunship should ROFL stomp a balanced viper or cobra. Owners of same should fear to take one on solo and be looking to wolf pack them with minimum two or three ships.

If we end up with a situation where fighter jock Joe has a reasonable chance of winning a solo attack on a python you know where this leads? Boredom. The game needs hard targets.

I Also agree with that but I've come to the point that i believe FD does not. So Ive kinda given up on it. I was hoping this game would be more then Start Conflict with trading but ill take what i can get.

 

[TehGems]

Guys I'm sorry but I haven't read the whole 46 pages, so forgive me if this has already been pointed out.
I don't understand.
I've been a happy Python owner since last week. I've been running around bounty hunting and trading with D thrusters and an A3 shield, and I have YET to take any hull damage. Why are you so worried about the changes? The Python will still be untouchable by smaller flies in PvE if you upgrade your shield by just one class. And seeing the upcoming nerf to dumbfires, I can't see how it could be touched by Vipers and Cobra in PvP...
The nerf is fine guys, it will just make the Anaconda a better ship statwise compared to the Python, and rightfully so. Combined with dumbfires nerf, the changes to the Python will have almost no effect concerning matchups vs smaller ships.
FD should just reduce repair and insurance costs all across the board in my opinion.

 

[bassman]

So you choose to ignore that making ships worth hundreds of millions be balanced to ships that are earned in a few days will encourage everyone to fly in the same cheap ships. while severely punishing anyone who wants to fly a expensive ship. Which will remove diversity.

So explain to me how the post-nerf python having about 4 times the hull strength and 2.5 times shield strength and offensive DPS of the viper is "balanced".

 

[Hazdoc]

I own a Python and I think they should be nerfed.

 

[remosito]

next week we shall have our concrete answers

 

[Jackruss]

I have a Sidewinder I go to the Shipbuilders.
Please Mr Shipbuilder I want to carry more cargo.
Ok but you will lose a little fire power and manoeuvrability.
I have a Hauler I go to the Shipbuilder.
Please Mr Shipbuilder I am making a better profit but I still need more cargo space.
Ok but you will need a lot of credits to make it bigger.
I earn more credits and Shipbuilder makes me a bigger cargo hold.
I am in an Adder and the Shipbuilder added a lot of extras into my cargo ship, including firepower and manoeuvrability, but I want to trade further out and maybe do some mining and exploring as well as more trading.
The Shipbuilder wanted more credits but he built me a Cobra.
The Cobra is a great all-rounder but still a little small.
He builds me a hundred ton capacity Type 6 but not as powerful or as fast as the Cobra.
I want more of everything.
The Shipbuilder wants a ton of money but builds me an ASP Explorer.
It is great at everything including protecting me while I make a ton of money trading exploring mining mission running even bounty hunting.
But after a while I keep getting killed by cheap fighters after my cargo or just being plain mean.
Back to the Shipbuilder, Ok so you want more firepower and speed and cargo space, he wants 57 tons of credits so I settle for a type 7 at 200+ tons cargo space to earn the cash for my ubber ship.
Trade trade trade then a visit to the Shipbuilder.
Ok you have enough credits for the ship but we want another 100 tons of credits to upgrade the new ship or it’s not worth flying.
Trade trade trade. I decide 80million credits is enough and I will trade my way up for the upgrades so I buy the PYTHON and do some scary trading to upgrade my “Pretty”.
Eventually I am in a moderately upgraded Python, loving it trading my way to a bit of spare cash for insurance and cargo, learned the fuel scoop trick and fitted an A3 fuel scoop. Now 2 jumps cost me less than one thousand credits.
Need to concentrate on weapons now to kill off anything that wants to take my “Pretty” away.
Now I am sitting in a nice place and can have a go at pretty well anything in the game thank you Mr Shipbuilder. Only problem is the Viper Jocks who are mostly better Pilots than me.
Oh by the way Cmdr Shug we made your ship too good and all the fighter Jocks want us to nerf it…then I woke up…ahhhhhh its not a dream it’s a nightmare…but true.

 

[Ruffgenius]

Someone certainly needs to start dealing with reality. Here are a few pointers to get you started:

1. Game balance is a fundamental aspect of what makes a game fun to play
2. The goal of balance changes is always to improve the game
3. Balance changes can only be made by the development team, not the players
4. Regular balance changes are a sign of a healthy game with a competent development team that's dedicated to making the game better
5. Game balance is a process, not an event - balance changes will be ongoing, and continue for the lifetime of the game

These are the realities of the situation.

LOL. No its not.

balancing the ships is fine. This in not balancing its nerfing there is nothing in game to balance it to except maybe the drop ship, clipper at a push but then come out at say that. It shouldn't just be one multipurpose ship nerf it should be all of them as all of them are kinda overpowered except for the drop ship.

Trying to balance a 4mil ship against a 300mil ship is ludicrous as they are in different leagues/classes and can not be balanced.

Yes the community should have a say in the game, the moment you start not listening the community the game will fail.

I wouldn't mind a balance once other ships or similar size and power in the game but they are not in yet and using a couple of youtube videos is crazy and shallow.

@ Mod:
A troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

The poster calling conspiracy was tolling as it was in fact true the posts have been closed that is just one example.

As for the post that was closed in the past when there has been more than one post on a individual topic the thread have been merged not closed. I fail to see why this wasn't done instead of closing it if it wasn't but to bury the poll. The poll was asked by people in this thread as a way of see who was wanting these changes and to no ones surprise it was indeed people who didn't even own the ship.
I think the poll was a good way of monitoring where the push change was coming from.

Just closing them because you don't like the conclusion is just bad practice, maybe as a moderator you can use a little persuasion to ask for a better reason for these changes.

Thanks

 

[Durden T.]

I am a happy Python owner since last Sunday. I honestly think this ship is all I wanted since I decided to trade my way to it.

I do understand the reasons of the nerf, while I think some of the numbers are higher than needed.

For me, the biggest motivation on this game (I mean, the thing that keeps me playing and not leaving to play another game) is to be able to fly a bigger, better ship. That keeps me motivated, that is my goal.

Until now my goal was to buy a Python. Now that I have it, my goal is to upgrade every part of it to make it the best possible ship.

Overall, I'm afraid FD may be missing this point and the importance of providing us gamers with ships that can motivate us. If all the "balancing" attempts lead to ships being less powerful and less attractive, I could sooner than latter be losing the motivation that keeps me playing everyday, and like me, other players.

 

[TehGems]

Also, what a lot of people in here seem to forget is that the Python nerf will probably come with at least one of the following:
-dumbfires nerf
-scb nerf
-changes to shield pips
-new ship

I think we will need to contextualize the nerf with those other changes. In my opinion, the Python will actually have a better standing than it has now against small ships considering the first three changes, and if it wasn't balanced it could really be gamebreakingly OP.

 

[Garfield-CH-]

/ironic mode on: Yes plase nerf the Pyton.. Thats not fair that i have no change in a Viper that Coast up to 5 Million upgarded to class A to a pyton that coast 200 million upgarded to class A... I want kill anything alone in a cheaper ship. /ironic mode off:

No really what is the reason to spend over 200 million credits in a Pyton when i can kill it with a singel Viper ? Yes nothing.. so we all can buy Vipers and the game get bored.. I think sometimes better some players get a brain buff.. For taking a 200 million credits ship down you need more than one singel Viper, you need to wolfpack it.. And this will happen with the Wings update..

 

[Derath]

Gotta say after 200+ pages of this/other python threads I still don't know where the "viper kills python" comes from, I'd have to have my eyes shut to lose to a viper yet its toted around like every python loses to a viper

 

[Starender]

It shouldn't just be one multipurpose ship nerf it should be all of them as all of them are kinda overpowered except for the drop ship.

^ Truth !

why nerf the Python when the Cobra is much much more Overpowered and cost 50 times less ?

 

[BigBadB]

LOL. No its not.

Which of my statements was incorrect?

balancing the ships is fine. This in not balancing its nerfing there is nothing in game to balance it to except maybe the drop ship, clipper at a push but then come out at say that. It shouldn't just be one multipurpose ship nerf it should be all of them as all of them are kinda overpowered except for the drop ship.

There are the 14 other ships already in the game and the 15 additional ones that are on their way. The existing ships need to be balanced relative to each other and to the upcoming ships.

As an example, the Python's shield can be balanced against the Anaconda's and the Clipper's. Which is what's happening - after the change the Python will go from having the strongest shields currently in the game to having the second strongest shields currently in the game. That's a balance adjustment that makes perfect sense just with the existing ships.

Trying to balance a 4mil ship against a 300mil ship is ludicrous as they are in different leagues/classes and can not be balanced.

With all due respect, I'm afraid that this statement just shows that you don't really understand what game balance means.

'Balanced', in the context of a game like ED, doesn't mean 'the same as'. It means that each ship has strengths and weaknesses that make it more suitable for some roles or playstyles than others. Ships of different value can absolutely be balanced against each other, as the costs to both purchase and maintain a ship are one of the things that the designers will be taking into account when they balance them.

As an example, the Python is a much more expensive ship to buy and run than the Cobra. Balancing that are the facts that the Python has far more cargo space, far stronger shields and hull, a more powerful distributor and much more powerful weapons with much better placement.

You may not agree that the current balance between the Cobra and the Python is in the right place, but that doesn't mean no balance can exist.

Yes the community should have a say in the game, the moment you start not listening the community the game will fail.

Absolutely, player feedback is incredibly helpful to any game developer.

I wouldn't mind a balance once other ships or similar size and power in the game but they are not in yet and using a couple of youtube videos is crazy and shallow.

Just because the other ships aren't available to us yet doesn't mean that the devs can't take them into account when making balance changes. They absolutely should be doing that, as it's the most efficient and effective way to work.

Don't understand the YouTube reference, sorry.

 

[Flyinpiranha]

I am a happy Python owner since last Sunday. I honestly think this ship is all I wanted since I decided to trade my way to it.

I do understand the reasons of the nerf, while I think some of the numbers are higher than needed.

For me, the biggest motivation on this game (I mean, the thing that keeps me playing and not leaving to play another game) is to be able to fly a bigger, better ship. That keeps me motivated, that is my goal.

Until now my goal was to buy a Python. Now that I have it, my goal is to upgrade every part of it to make it the best possible ship.

Overall, I'm afraid FD may be missing this point and the importance of providing us gamers with ships that can motivate us. If all the "balancing" attempts lead to ships being less powerful and less attractive, I could sooner than latter be losing the motivation that keeps me playing everyday, and like me, other players.

This is spot on. I really, really, really wish they'd just come out and say "There will never be a better ship than the current Python. No ship will ever be as good as the current Python" ... because balancing it now tells me that it's "just too good". They have the roadmap for the ships they want, they have it all right there, give or take. So while I will still continue to play this game where I "make my own way" ... the SHIP is "the way". That's what I love in this game. I spent hours tuning my Forza car and livery, I spent hours on all my "characters" in other games. If I wanted to play TF2 in space or COD in space, I wouldn't have tried to find it here because I didn't think that's what it was going to be!

Some people want to make this Arena PewPew, if that's the way this game goes, I'm gone. But I really hope they aren't going that route. But as it stands there is no "Ferrari" and that sucks. Or rather, there is, but they put a governer on it. This wasn't supposed to be Arena PewPew, it was supposed to be a game where you played for years, you eventually owned those ships you ran from month ago. It wasn't supposed to be people shooting missiles into stations or using their PEZ dispensed Sidwinders to dumbfire missiles into spendy ships. (at least that's being changed).

I just don't get their gameplan anymore, that's my biggest worry. I wish I actually knew what their overall plan was for the game. Nerfing "the best" ship before they even launch the ships that were promised is such a lame tactic. Tone it down in batches so for those that spent days and days acquiring it aren't just left hanging. But no, it's HACK AND SLASH.

BUT, still enjoying the game, so I'll keep playing until I no longer want to. Glad there's no subscription, wouldn't feel right giving them money per month not having any clue as to where they think this game "should be".

Hopefully this is all hot air and the changes don't affect the ship much, but it's doubtful. At least missiles won't be able to take down a shield. That's a change for the positive, but this ship is ridiculously expensive, it should be ridiculously good. This isn't TF2 or COD.

As an example, the Python is a much more expensive ship to buy and run than the Cobra. Balancing that are the facts that the Python has far more cargo space, far stronger shields and hull, a more powerful distributor and much more powerful weapons with much better placement.

Cargo means nothing to a combat ship. It's seriously irrelevant in this comparison. The shields did need toning down, I never disagreed to that. Hulls are almost the same across the board it seems, continuous fire from non-energy weapons can easily take it out, but I do think they plan to 'increase' this. "Better placement" works if they weren't taking away maneuverability, I have seen so many different numbers that I'll only be able to see in tests after the patch ... but from what I gather, it won't be good. The 'better placement' is said BECAUSE it can change directions quickly. There is no point in having all forward hardpoints 2L top, 1L bottom if I can never turn fast enough to face the other ship, the backside of the Python will become a huge target that any competent ship could stay within reach.

What happens when the Vulture is released? Basically a Porsche with 2 large hardpoints that can easily outmaneuver the Python? I'll tell you what happens. I'll just buy it. Then I'll have a trade ship and a combat ship. What exactly does it matter if I own two ships or 1 ship that is good at all that is ridiculously expensive? I'm the one that has to gear for trading or combat. I just don't see the difference I guess. I just like the look of the Python, it's why I was so happy it was so good. I loved the view of the Clipper but the Python can hold more cargo, it's why I switched. I have an Asp parked for combat almost 250 Ly away. I hate having to be tied to a system because I can't have a ship that does the two things I want to do.

 

[Andrej]

Basic math and logic (and the ingame-rules/physics) suggests the larger ships don't turn as fast as the smaller ones. It's pretty much demonstrated in every single ship that's not the Python, so we know the Python is the problem child.

Basic math and logic tells that ship maneuverability is a function of weight/power ratio, not that larger ships don't turn as fast as the smaller ones. In modern aviation heavy twin engine fighters are outmaneuvering single engine light fighters.

 

[Poseidal]

Basic math and logic tells that ship maneuverability is a function of weight/power ratio, not that larger ships don't turn as fast as the smaller ones. In modern aviation heavy twin engine fighters are outmaneuvering single engine light fighters.

I've already mentioned this in previous threads. There is an optimum. It currently lands in the Viper/Cobra size category currently, as larger ships tend to tail off apart from the Python. If it were the case as you say but with the optimisation on the Python, then the Clipper, Dropship and other large ships should also be reaping benefits as they would logically do so.

 

[Flyinpiranha]

Gotta say after 200+ pages of this/other python threads I still don't know where the "viper kills python" comes from, I'd have to have my eyes shut to lose to a viper yet its toted around like every python loses to a viper

Really? I get the vibe that the Viper shouldn't be able to easily (as in really, really low chance) beat the Python, and that's the point. They're changing it so it's easier to beat the Python which doesn't make sense (to me). In fact with my big tinfoil hat on I think the reason it's being nerfed at all is because of people complaining about it being too strong, which I don't think is a problem.

The "Balance" is just odd for reasoning. Because this is a game where you can have 5 Vipers trying to take out a Type 6. Where's the balance there? You can have 7 Cobra's attacking a Sidewinder. So does it really matter if a ship is really good?

 

[Ydiss]

Basic math and logic tells that ship maneuverability is a function of weight/power ratio, not that larger ships don't turn as fast as the smaller ones. In modern aviation heavy twin engine fighters are outmaneuvering single engine light fighters.

Basic reading and comprehension tells us the Dev quote was explicit in explaining that the Python is a large ship and shouldn't be capable of its current performance.

It just also happily marries up with the fact that the Python is indeed huge. Bigger than most other ships and really had no place turning as fast as it can now. Or moving forwards as fast.

The other argument is shields. Which are overbearingly strong against anything except op dumb fires. Which are also getting changed.

It's still no big deal, though. 17% is not a large number. And 33% of what is the strongest shield in the game isn't, either. It'll still turn OK, it'll still take a lot of damage.

This'll be forgotten weeks after it's happened.