Ramming - is there a solution?

I've always thought that ramming is one of those things that can't be solved with mechanics like the criminal system. Ramming is basically a calculation of velocity and mass and shields and hull, I would expect. There's no way of telling who rammed who from the game's perspective.

What can you do?

1. Radically reduce the amount of damage taken in collisions. This seems like particularly a bad idea, a recipe for space bumper cars, and would make docking trivially easy. Nobody would care if their ship bounced off the sides of a space station letterbox if there wasn't a risk that their bad flying would be fatal.

2. Is there a damage threshold from ramming that would incur a fine? If you are flying so recklessly as to cause serious damage to another player, then could that be deemed to trigger 'Wanted' status or a fine of some sort? The problem here is again distinguishing between Mr Nasty and his victim, let's call him Buzz Lightweight - Nasty will also take damage and so Buzz would get a fine or criminal status - ideal for the three other players in Mr Nasty's wing who can now attack Buzz and collect their bounty.

3. Could you link the throttle speed to the damage from the ram and use that? So in other words, if a player has his throttle in the blue range, and Mr Nasty boosts into him, would it be possible to assign blame based on the relative throttle speeds? It sounds like it might work but you have a big problem with thresholds - there might be a sweet spot which would cause damage without triggering criminal status. There would almost certainly be occasions when Buzz is trying to escape at full throttle and gets rammed - it's one thing to get rammed to death, it would be much worse if Buzz had to pay off an unfair bounty for causing damage to Mr Nasty on top of that. And given the different masses and top speeds of the game's various ships, how would you figure out what happens if Mr Nasty is in a disposable Sidewinder and Buzz Lightweight is in a Type 7?

4. The only other thing I can think of is looking at the amount of overall collision damage a pilot takes within a particular period. Most pilots don't take much damage whereas someone using ramming as a combat tactic is going to rack up a much bigger sum that would be anomalous if FD are collecting telematics. The problem there is that it could only work in a meta-game sense - FD would have to ban or isolate players for persistent ramming. Yet ramming is a legitimate combat tactic in some circumstances, particularly for the big trading ships that don't have a great load-out, and banning players for doing it would seem to be over-the-top and still wouldn't stop Buzz Lightweight feeling hard done by.

So, I still think ramming is one of those things that can't be dealt with using fines and bounties without causing far more problems than it solves.

But perhaps someone else has a good idea.

Edit:

The reason I posted this was because people complain they are being rammed when not in combat and so cannot respond with weapons without becoming criminals. So ramming is a way of getting round the criminality system and in an ideal world, the game would be able to tell who rammed who and assign criminality to a rammer. So the points above are examining ways in which that might be done. There is a fifth option:

5. Get rid of the criminal system altogether. No fines, no wanted status, no bounties for player vs player attacks. Any commander can attack any other commander without incurring a bounty or a fine. Keep it for NPCs. Instead, level the playing field so that players in freighters or flying solo can make some arrangement to respond to group attacks eg NPC wings.
 
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Can't really think of one.

Besides some workarounds:
- Staying in group/solo and let them ram theirselves
- Moving out of the space they do it.
- Make sure your ship is tougher than theirs.

Honestly, i'm really chuckling whenever someone finds a way to keep more people from playing open...
Makes it more likely that either open play will get fixed to a point where it is worth to be played or solo modes being kept as they are.
 

CMDR Nick

Banned
I ram ships frequently. It's a non-criminal way of removing a non-wanted ship from your RES so that you have more targets. When it is made criminal, I'll stop doing it.
 
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It should be possible to make a reasonably robust ramming check and assign consquences same as any other player action. It wouldn't be a perfect check but it doesn't need to be - it just needs to make ramming a more difficult and inconvenient to achieve while avoiding consequence, not make it impossible, nor stop players from ramming if the consequences are worth it to them (no different to opening fire).

An example ramming-check - eg, if a damaging contact occurs, and the other ship was in my cone of visibility (or my FA was off), and my ship had the higher velocity towards the contact point, then I am clearly, at best, flying recklessly, a danger to others around me, and at least half at-fault for the accident (if not entirely at-fault) and I am deserving of a moving violation or worse. Extra violation points if my ship is larger. (If I can afford a big ship, I'm an experienced pilot and I should know better than to fly badly)

It would be possible to manage a less-effective ramming without triggering that infraction, but it would be much more difficult and annoying to pull it off, it would give the other guy more chance to avoid you, and there is a lot of scope to mess up and earn the rebuke anyway. At the same time, not many n00b pilots that accidentally collide are going to be caught in the net, and if they are, well, clearly they were flying irresponsibly and should simply slow down :)
 
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Think about modern self-driving cars. could we extrapolate that the ships have a similar system in the computer where the ai simply takes over and prevents the bump from happening? implement it with a simple "bounce off inner shield" that the game uses to totally prevent any collision damage between 2 ships.

the system would only be operable within the no shoot range / TBT / 1-10km of the space station.

thus ramming in combat could still be a viable tactic, albiet infuriating, while the idiocy of griefing/ramming while docking is fixed up.

lots of ways to work it. something simple like this might be the easiest way to fix the issue.
 
ramming should be allowed, but should result in the same response as shooting a ship. Simple comparison during collision detection is all that's needed. Just check who had more velocity in the direction of the other ship when they collide. The one with more velocity is given blame.

It's simple.

I don't ram as a tactic so much as I allow myself to be collided with when it comes to NPCS as it's just quicker to let them do what they want (ram you) and die as they bounce off my shields.
 
ramming should be allowed, but should result in the same response as shooting a ship. Simple comparison during collision detection is all that's needed. Just check who had more velocity in the direction of the other ship when they collide. The one with more velocity is given blame.

It's simple.

No it isn't. Then the players currently doing the ramming will just switch to Eagles and quickly dash in front of large ships that can't stop or turn quickly enough to avoid the collision. All you're doing is reversing who is picking on who.
 
The easiest way is top just eliminate ship-to-ship collision damage if shields are up. I really dont see collision damage adding anything to the game play.
 
1. Radically reduce the amount of damage taken in collisions. This seems like particularly a bad idea, a recipe for space bumper cars, and would make docking trivially easy. Nobody would care if their ship bounced off the sides of a space station letterbox if there wasn't a risk that their bad flying would be fatal.
So vastly reduce ship-to-ship ramming damage, but leave the damage from large objects such as stations and asteroids unchanged. I see no downside to this.
 
The collision damage has already been reduced quite a bit since the betas, a further reduction seems silly. Not that I miss the days of kamikaze Federal fighters, mind you.
One additional method would be to detect repeated collisions and direction; a player that hits another and is facing them (or heading towards them, in the case of ramming via lateral and vertical thrust) each time would trigger the fine. However, someone who keeps getting in the way deliberately would trigger the fine on the other person.
 
1- you get griefed near a station, you are obligated to park the good ship, get a free sidewinder, go out and ram the offender.. repeatedly.. it doesn't matter if you make contact.. just annoy them.. for a long time. a bunch of folks going at them like hornets may drive them off.
2- 4 pips in systems exaggerates the shields considerably, before any other boosting... if you see it coming, put it into systems.
3- drive a bigger boat. This wasn't my idea, the little viper crossed my path. You see how well it went:

viper.jpg
 
So vastly reduce ship-to-ship ramming damage, but leave the damage from large objects such as stations and asteroids unchanged. I see no downside to this.
Ramming is a valid tactic in combat, particularly if you've run out of ammo. Sometimes I get bored of sweeping away pirate Sidewinders with ammo worth more than their bounty. The real problem is detecting ramming as a deliberate aggressive action and applying the right consequences in the same way as weapons fire.
 
Next we will need to ban weapons as they too, are used by griefers.

In an Asp with very good shields and armour, ramming an injured Python from underneath might not be pretty or 'cricket' but it works. Pythons and Anacondas are great when they have you in their sights and you are out gunned, but when they are down to 15% hull and you have no ammo what else is there?

Ban or limit this, the wrong people get penalised and the idiots, who play just to cause grief will find some other way.
 
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I would agree if there was a proper justice system in ED to deal with it in PvP situations. Since there is not, ramming damage needs a serious nerf or be removed altogether.

Reducing ramming damage would be very immersion breaking. If FD can't find a way to make ramming criminal, then they should just keep it as it is. People just have to learn how to deal with it be being more aware of their surroundings.
 
Next we will need to ban weapons as they too, are used by griefers.

In an Asp with very good shields and armour, ramming an injured Python from underneath might not be pretty or 'cricket' but it works. Pythons and Anacondas are great when they have you in their sights and you are out gunned, but when they are down to 15% hull and you have no ammo what else is there?

Ban or limit this, the wrong people get penalised and the idiots, who play just to cause grief will find some other way.

My point wasn't to ban it, but that in an ideal world, someone who rammed would be treated the same way as someone who opened fire. At the moment players are complaining about other players ramming them either in wings or within station no fire zones which doesn't trigger criminality. So, ramming is fine, but ramming to avoid being tagged 'wanted' is a problem.

Personally I don't think criminality really works in an online game because it doesn't prevent the thing it is meant to prevent - players being unhappy because they have been attacked by another player. The players who want to attack other players will always find a way, and the fact they have got around the system just increases the sense of unfairness - much better to give the defender a decent way of defending themselves whatever their playstyle.

So perhaps I should have put in another option:

5. Get rid of the criminal system altogether. No fines, no wanted status, no bounties.

All complaints about griefers and pking usually boil down to the fact that the person who is attacked doesn't feel they had any realistic chance of avoiding being killed. So far, many traders believe their only defence is to not play the same game as the pkers, which isn't very satisfactory.
 
It should be possible to make a reasonably robust ramming check and assign consquences same as any other player action. It wouldn't be a perfect check but it doesn't need to be - it just needs to make ramming a more difficult and inconvenient to achieve while avoiding consequence, not make it impossible, nor stop players from ramming if the consequences are worth it to them (no different to opening fire).

An example ramming-check - eg, if a damaging contact occurs, and the other ship was in my cone of visibility (or my FA was off), and my ship had the higher velocity towards the contact point, then I am clearly, at best, flying recklessly, a danger to others around me, and at least half at-fault for the accident (if not entirely at-fault) and I am deserving of a moving violation or worse. Extra violation points if my ship is larger. (If I can afford a big ship, I'm an experienced pilot and I should know better than to fly badly)

It would be possible to manage a less-effective ramming without triggering that infraction, but it would be much more difficult and annoying to pull it off, it would give the other guy more chance to avoid you, and there is a lot of scope to mess up and earn the rebuke anyway. At the same time, not many n00b pilots that accidentally collide are going to be caught in the net, and if they are, well, clearly they were flying irresponsibly and should simply slow down :)

Great stuff, it all looks plausible to my untrained eye. The thing I'd be concerned about is false positives in combat because while it's probably annoying to be rammed in a station, it would be worse to be rammed and pick up an infraction as a result.


ramming should be allowed, but should result in the same response as shooting a ship. Simple comparison during collision detection is all that's needed. Just check who had more velocity in the direction of the other ship when they collide. The one with more velocity is given blame.

It's simple.

I don't ram as a tactic so much as I allow myself to be collided with when it comes to NPCS as it's just quicker to let them do what they want (ram you) and die as they bounce off my shields.

Yes, I should probably have been clearer in my original post - ramming is a legitimate tactic, but it should ideally be treated the same way as shooting. Question is, is that possible?
 
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