I am amazed this release was "tested" at all given the kind of bugs it landed with. Charging people 7.99, most of whom are obviously NOT doing "testing", but just wanting to get early features.
Re: paying Beta testers not doing a proper job
- Thread starter TomP
- Start date
Indeed I've seen the attitude you speak of from some others too. Frankly there are people who use this forum that are best put on ignore.
More than happy to report bugs or issues I see in the beta but but we aren't responsibile for the build. Reality does seem a bit odd these days, us paying to test a company's game for them. Depends how you look at it though and my beta access was from KS. Nevertheless I've always found beta is useful because its a good time to take a look at the upcoming content, try new builds, ships and equipment, and generally get a head of the curve. It also means we can be a part of the feedback to the developers
These days I try not to over do my time in the betas because I like things to be fresh when it goes live.
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Hi Folks
i didn't beta test and during beta there was an awful lot of posts by beta players trying to coerce non beta players to take sides and force game changes on mechanics they hadn't tried yet using false arguments and spurious facts (on both sides), it was very confusing and did beg the question of how much actual bug reporting was going on and how much the beta proccess was being hijacked to try a further personal preferences rather than iron out bugs i.e. The Great Surface Map Debate
Thats just how it looked, keep in mind i do try and not believe everything i read on the internet
a quick check of the much quieter bug reporting section reassured me that some CMDR's did still know what beta is for!
for all those who tested and submitted bug reports thank you kindly!
i didn't beta test and during beta there was an awful lot of posts by beta players trying to coerce non beta players to take sides and force game changes on mechanics they hadn't tried yet using false arguments and spurious facts (on both sides), it was very confusing and did beg the question of how much actual bug reporting was going on and how much the beta proccess was being hijacked to try a further personal preferences rather than iron out bugs i.e. The Great Surface Map Debate
Thats just how it looked, keep in mind i do try and not believe everything i read on the internet
a quick check of the much quieter bug reporting section reassured me that some CMDR's did still know what beta is for!for all those who tested and submitted bug reports thank you kindly!
Well. you see, the moment I had to pay to play a BETA, I felt no obligation to do a job out of it.
I did some bug report but only to the point of what convenient to me. Not for FD, not for everyone else. Thus, I do not really understand the community service attitude you may have towards this whole issue, nor do get the need for validation or criticizing from the community.
I consider your thoughts to be in the right place, but the threads reads more like a whine.
And yes, 100% agree that FD should have their own BETA testers for their game.
I did some bug report but only to the point of what convenient to me. Not for FD, not for everyone else. Thus, I do not really understand the community service attitude you may have towards this whole issue, nor do get the need for validation or criticizing from the community.
I consider your thoughts to be in the right place, but the threads reads more like a whine.
And yes, 100% agree that FD should have their own BETA testers for their game.
We paid for access to the beta, we are not testers.
Bugs and a few issues after a release have never really bothered me, its to be expected, yeah it can be a little frustrating but Frontier are usually on top of showstoppers straight away and we will likely see a patch to fix bugs shortly.
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Panticus
Banned
Now look here, you've just made me spill my soup down my tuxedo with that funny remark. I assume it was meant to be funny?
0m0s
p.s. there's no conflict at all in paying people in order to be harsh, and then being treated with contempt. It is all perfectly normal at Madame Thrashbutt's boudoir down the road
(cough, apparently.)
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The remark was that the game would be buggier, not that it's without bugs with a QA team. If the QA team only prevented one single bug in their entire existence, his remark would be true.
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Maybe we should boycott the bug testing phase next time and see what FD do ? Let their game fail or maybe employ people to do the beta testing ? Just saying.
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So it's all your fault is it Tom... Well at least I now know who to blame!
The industries move to paid beta testing is one that I have always found to be a mixed bag of fish. On the one hand you will get good players who, like you say, will hand in bug reports, test new content and give feedback - on this note it is important to state that from the developers point of view everyone's input should be a valid as anyone else's. Then there are the beta testers who, for a low price see that they can play the new content first and that's all they will do. Play the game as they normally would. These people too are providing feedback just by being on the test server and providing numbers on stability, band width use etc.
Internally there should always be beta testers - not developers - but actual beta testers. However what we've arrived at is a QA department. Now these folks are not normally sitting down and play testing the game. They are more concerned with code and asset's and a whole host of other technical topics as laid out in ISO 15504, they do not play the game and report bugs. What I was most shocked to see many months ago was a Frontier SQA engineer blaming bugs on the beta testers not reporting them in the beta phase, he should know full well that a software bug is a mistake by a developer in the code... The code they are supposed to pass according to the standards laid out in ISO 15504.
As for the developers not engaging directly that is no surprise as they should be to busy to have time to read the forums, instead the community team need to be the bridge between them and us - letting us know the bugs we submit are being looked at. Perhaps now is the time for Brett and Zach to bang their heads together and see how hard it would be to get a news letter out to us on a regular basis letting us know which issues are being worked on at any given time and a possible time frame for the 'fix' to be released.
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They do.
FD have a QA team. There are a team of people paid to do exactly what you're outlining.
Frontier have paid testers. They test the alpha, beta and release versions in-house. Check on LinkedIn, there's a positive army of them from what I can see. That's never been an issue.
While more recent players have paid to join in with the betas, the reason they pay is because early beta access was a Kickstarter reward to people who backed the game's creation, and to then hand that reward out for free would be a kick in the teeth to those backers. Asking new players who want early access to make a contribution is fairer.
A disconnect here, is that some people confuse actual bugs with game-play elements they don't like. If it doesn't work how you want, that isn't a bug. But plenty of people claim this or that is "broken" when it works just fine, just not how they wanted.
Frontier develop a long way in advance and we don't know (being on the outside) which code tree is being worked on, so depending on the severity of a bug, it may be fixed in a point release or need to wait until a major version release. This is pretty normal practice. Anyone who thinks that every bug must and should all be fixed in the very next point-release, will always be disappointed. That's not how software development works.
Frontier have their own priorities with the game that may not always coincide with "popular opinion" - especially as these development decisions are made (as stated) long in advance. Frontier said earlier this year they were already working on content for seasons 3 & 4, which is design work we won't see, much less get to complain about, for up to two years. No doubt forum critics will be second-guessing Fronter's design decisions with 18 months hindsight.
Was I, or many of the other backers and paid beta players just mucking around? I'm sure many were. The game is too vast for me to test on my own. I just reported the bugs and problems I had playing as I normally do. And that's almost certainly what Frontier expect of us. After all, we're enthusiastic volunteers, not employees.
While more recent players have paid to join in with the betas, the reason they pay is because early beta access was a Kickstarter reward to people who backed the game's creation, and to then hand that reward out for free would be a kick in the teeth to those backers. Asking new players who want early access to make a contribution is fairer.
A disconnect here, is that some people confuse actual bugs with game-play elements they don't like. If it doesn't work how you want, that isn't a bug. But plenty of people claim this or that is "broken" when it works just fine, just not how they wanted.
Frontier develop a long way in advance and we don't know (being on the outside) which code tree is being worked on, so depending on the severity of a bug, it may be fixed in a point release or need to wait until a major version release. This is pretty normal practice. Anyone who thinks that every bug must and should all be fixed in the very next point-release, will always be disappointed. That's not how software development works.
Frontier have their own priorities with the game that may not always coincide with "popular opinion" - especially as these development decisions are made (as stated) long in advance. Frontier said earlier this year they were already working on content for seasons 3 & 4, which is design work we won't see, much less get to complain about, for up to two years. No doubt forum critics will be second-guessing Fronter's design decisions with 18 months hindsight.
Was I, or many of the other backers and paid beta players just mucking around? I'm sure many were. The game is too vast for me to test on my own. I just reported the bugs and problems I had playing as I normally do. And that's almost certainly what Frontier expect of us. After all, we're enthusiastic volunteers, not employees.
It tends to have the disadvantage of somewhat setting expectations for the end of beta and release date. It creates a lot of bug reports, but if there are an excessive amount or critical issues, it can be hard to then put back the release date by any significant period. It's fine if everything is ok, but it makes it very difficult to say 'this is ****ed. We need to take a step back, rethink X and Y and give ourselves a few more weeks.
It's a bit disingenuous I think to say that QA teams are focused around ISO standards, rather than around finding and replicating issues. I don't think 15504 even exists as a current standard any more. Are FD even ISO compliant? I'd expect them to have not bothered and to just use ITIL framework, if that.
Didn't see you second post so edited this one. 15504 is still the standard that was issued. Granted many companies have a solution that stays within the frame work of the standard as therefore allows them to be credited with 15504/33001 compliance. There are a number of revisions in ISO 33001 that deal with process management more and have lead to 15504 being used less and it is no longer available as it is now fully covered under 33001 which also is not concerned with actual use of the software by the end-user. You can tell how long it's been since I had to read this as I still just rattle off 15504
Sadly my wife is a lead auditor for a large global corporation and I get to hear far to much about ISO standards
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It is actually kind of crazy, and rather unethical, that Frontier (and other developers too) are taking money from people so they can help them make a good game.
Absurd really! [yesnod]
Almost criminal?
Absurd really! [yesnod]
Almost criminal?
Which is an important part of testing. Many tests are run on how features are supposed to work and try to break them with the aim to break them. While mucking about reveals parts of the gameplay that aren't discovered by focusing on a particular issue.
Which is why we always invited the entire marketing department before releases for 2 reasons. 1. They have no idea where the vulnerabilities are in the code, so they will be mucking about. 2. Marketing people love having an influence, so you put something in there of which you know they will complain, and have the solution handy. They think they contribute and become enthusiastic about the application.
Ian Phillips
Volunteer Moderator
I am glad you liked it! [yesnod]
The QA team, and the paid beta testers, are beta testers.
We are the alpha testers.
We are the alpha testers.
Oh, I don't blame you. I blame the people at Frontier who are apparently not competent enough to adjust a simple algorithm without screwing every trade mission in the game.