General / Off-Topic Recycle or Die! (the elite environmental thread)

[Senzafine]

I never said that I don't believe in climate change science at all, I just have a healthy amount of skepticism with how it's disseminated (if you don't believe we'll make you!), which is why I jumped on your thought police comment yesterday. My broad take on the subject would be very similar to the comment of Richard Muller's that Talarin provided. The Earth's climate has obviously been shifting for thousands/millions of years, just look at the world catastrophes during the last glacial maxim.

On a side note: do you own a car, or are you a public transportation kind of person?

Never owned a car, never flown. Don't actually get out a whole lot - been disabled for the past quarter century, occasionally use taxis. I deeply envy Zak for his globetrotting past , I would love to do that. But even if I was fit and able and had the means I wouldn't do it now. It's too damaging.

When I wrote that you didn't seem to believe in CC science I actually meant the anthropogenic part of it. We all know that climate has naturally shifted massively in the past, only this time it's down to our actions, and that it's happening far faster than previously.

 

[Patrick_68000]

They certainly know enough to distinguish between the past shifts and today's shift cause especially considering we are alive today.

If you want to imply that the current shift is not our fault then you are conflicting with the consensus, if you don't then I don't get what you are trying to say aside from the hyperbole.

People who are in denial of the cause of the human activities in the global warming, do it to make themselves good conscience about their indecent hyperconsumption and their unbearable carbon footprint.

These are for the most selfish people who think only of their little person. Even the future of their children and little children does not matter for them.

They are hypocritical people, only materialistic and with no depth of mind.

They are the current scourge of humanity and unfortunately they are numerous

Unfortunately the people who are reasonable and intelligent must suffer the negative consequences of the irresponsible behavior of these destroyers.

 

[jasonbarron]

People who are in denial of the cause of the human activities in the global warming, do it to make themselves good conscience about their indecent hyperconsumption and their unbearable carbon footprint.

These are for the most selfish people who think only of their little person. Even the future of their children and little children does not matter for them.

They are hypocritical people, only materialistic and with no depth of mind.

They are the current scourge of humanity and unfortunately they are numerous

Unfortunately the people who are reasonable and intelligent must suffer the negative consequences of the irresponsible behavior of these destroyers.

This is one of the most ill informed and crass comments I've ever seen on the Internet. Besides ignorance, what do you base such a negative comment on?

 

[Patrick_68000]

what do you base such a negative comment on?

Thanks for not being crass.

 

[jasonbarron]

 

[Senzafine]

Marc Morano, a Republican politician and self declared "climate change expert" with absolutely no background in science whatsover.

Marc Morano - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

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"Over the past few weeks I casually asked several climate-informed colleagues what questions, claims, or myths do they hear most often from friends, family, or random people. I call these "zombie" theories because they have often been refuted but live on in social media, other outlets, and so forth. Here are the top 20 that emerged."

20 Common Myths That Climate Scientists Often Hear

Have you heard (or said) any of the top 20 comments or myths often posed to climate scientists? They offer opportunities to improve climate literacy.

www.forbes.com

See also:

https://skepticalscience.com/argument.php

 

[jasonbarron]

Marc Morano, a Republican politician and self declared "climate change expert" with absolutely no background in science whatsover.

Marc Morano - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

----------------------------------------------------------------



"Over the past few weeks I casually asked several climate-informed colleagues what questions, claims, or myths do they hear most often from friends, family, or random people. I call these "zombie" theories because they have often been refuted but live on in social media, other outlets, and so forth. Here are the top 20 that emerged."

20 Common Myths That Climate Scientists Often Hear

Have you heard (or said) any of the top 20 comments or myths often posed to climate scientists? They offer opportunities to improve climate literacy.

www.forbes.com

See also:

https://skepticalscience.com/argument.php

I'm guessing you didn't watch the video to hear his case. Personally, I found that he makes some solid points, and when he discusses the motivation behind our leaders and institutions creating a climate change "emergency" he's spot on: power and wealth for them, enslavement for the population.

 

[EUS]

I'm cynical as well.
The only solutions implemented to date has been taxes. Carbon tax, Fuel tax increases, etc.
Meanwhile oil subsidies continue unabated. Canada is set to increase its pollution, yet we hide behind carbon credits. What a joke.
But it's the only way to add and increase taxes, create an emergency. You have 20 years to fix this, or else.
Yet Monsanto is allowed to continue to kill off bees, and give us cancer.
We have oil companies in Alberta "going bankrupt", and not cleaning up the land as they were supposed to.
But the same gov't that allows this, says tsk tsk people, make sure that when you shop for groceries, you don't use plastic bags, (which are not single use bags, we use them as garbage bags), and up until last year was still exporting asbestos to India.
Duplicity everywhere.

 

[Arry]

I'm guessing you didn't watch the video to hear his case. Personally, I found that he makes some solid points, and when he discusses the motivation behind our leaders and institutions creating a climate change "emergency" he's spot on: power and wealth for them, enslavement for the population.

I listened and made notes.

His case is based on his own motives; not the truth, or solid scientific facts.

What he says, or makes up from thin air; simply reinforces his own agenda and his agenda, is to profit, or make a living, from attempting to discredit, any environmentalist and climate scientists; who have skills, experiences and knowledge, far greater and more respected, than his. To attempt to dismiss and discredit any proven facts on the subject, by telling those that employ and support him; exactly what they want to hear. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence can see through his lies. Only those to stupid, not to know better, or understand that what he is. Or those who needs his supposed 'expert opinion'; to support their own anti-environmental views, will give his drivel, any credit, or bother to listen to him; more than once.

He is a salesman. A spin doctor. A P.R. man, for the cause, for the greedy oil rich, republican backers. Nothing more.

 

[jasonbarron]

I listened and made notes.

His case is based on his own motives; not the truth, or solid scientific facts.

What he says, or makes up from thin air; simply reinforces his own agenda and his agenda, is to profit, or make a living, from attempting to discredit, any environmentalist and climate scientists; who have skills, experiences and knowledge, far greater and more respected, than his. To attempt to dismiss and discredit any proven facts on the subject, by telling those that employ and support him; exactly what they want to hear. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence can see through his lies. Only those to stupid to know better, or understand that what he is. Or those who needs his supposed 'expert opinion'; to support their own anti-environmental views, will give his drivel, any credit, or bother to listen to him; more than once.

He is a salesman. A spin doctor. A P.R. man, for the cause, for the greedy oil rich, republican backers. Nothing more.

That's funny, because that's how I feel about the various agencies/institutions/leaders promoting this hysteria: you almost have to be blind not to see their motivation of money and power gain to harness all of the population that's predisposed to believe anything they're told.

 

[Arry]

That's funny, because that's how I feel about the various agencies/institutions/leaders promoting this hysteria: you almost have to be blind not to see their motivation of money and power gain to harness all of the population that's predisposed to believe anything they're told.

I am far from 'predisposed'. I fully understand, that all coins, have more than two sides. My motives, are to understand the facts. Along with the reasons and motives, as to why people, act and think the way that they do and then. Take this into consideration, as to 'why' they do so.

Yes there is hysteria. Yes there is hypocrisy. Yes, blaming the general population, for the planets woes; is wrong.

At the same time; what most people believe and the way they act; is often based on what they are taught, or are brought up to believe to be right. Sometimes, those beliefs are so ingrained; no amount of hysteria, or even plan, in your face, facts. Will not change those beliefs and often, cause those believers. To raise barriers, shut out the noise and seek to have others; reinforce, those beliefs.

Just because it is a fact: That CO2 causes global warming. That CFCs destroys the ozone. That deforestation, reduces CO2 clean up and the amount of oxygen produced. That the last year, has shown the highest global rise in temperature, since records began. Will not change, the beliefs of those, too engrained, to appreciate these facts.

 

[Talarin]

Marc Morano, a Republican politician and self declared "climate change expert" with absolutely no background in science whatsover.

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See also:

https://skepticalscience.com/argument.php

Appeal to authority does not a convincing argument make. I don't know what Morano has in that video, as I'm not taking an hour of my life to watch it, but you've actually said nothing which addresses any point. To be clear, that doesn't mean that there's any content of value in that video - just your dismissal of it is weak at best.

I also note that similar comment hasn't been passed about Al Gore, Greta Thunberg, Bob Ward or any other media personalities of the climate movement. In fact, a number of Bob Ward's somewhat hysterical commentary pieces have been promoted in this thread.

And you go on to then reference a blog run and curated by a "cognitive scientist" - hardly an expert in climate science. And one which is, in my own experience, is not in the least bit skeptical about anything that reinforces the desired narrative. Said psychologist (John Cook) is actually one of the actors responsible for the "97% of climate scientists" consensus, utterly somehow missing the way that science actually works. He is a salesman. A spin doctor. A P.R. man for the cause. Nothing more.

Irony abounds.

 

[Senzafine]

I'm guessing you didn't watch the video to hear his case.

You're damned right I didn't. Just hopped over to youtube, saw the bullet point of clapped out "arguments" that have been thoroughly been debunked a million times. I don't have the energy or inclinination to waste time watching that ideologically driven crap.

 

[jasonbarron]

You're damned right I didn't. Just hopped over to youtube, saw the bullet point of clapped out "arguments" that have been thoroughly been debunked a million times. I don't have the energy or inclinination to waste time watching that ideologically driven crap.

If you don't like "ideologically driven crap" why do you revel in it so much?

 

[Senzafine]

If you don't like "ideologically driven crap" why do you revel in it so much?

As usual, you project like crazy.

@Talarin
Jason has come out as a complete AGW denier by linking to a video by a notorious denier, who has no expertise in the area. The fact that, as usual, you tear into me rather than those who reject established science is extremely telling.

 

[Talarin]

@Talarin
Jason has come out as a complete AGW denier by linking to a video by a notorious denier, who has no expertise in the area. The fact that, as usual, you tear into me rather than those who reject established science is extremely telling.

Telling, how?

He linked to a video that he said made a case. You rejected it based on your opinion of the man and his known position on the topic, rather than the content of the video/arguments he makes. You then went on to confirm that you never bothered to watch the video. And failed to note that I've pointed out that you are also referencing people without what appear to be the prerequisite skills to be permitted any opinion or convincing position on the topic.

Seems to me that my comment was bang on. You can't have it both ways. Either accept that people without a degree in climate science might have valid points to make, or don't. Put another way; if you accept John Cook can make a useful and relevant point, you also have to accept that the likes of Morano might too.

I might just watch the damn video now.

 

[Senzafine]

Telling, how?

Use your noggin. Actions can speak louder than words.


If you or Jason don't like those links I gave then hop over to realclimate. They debunk those exact same arguments. And it's run by climate scientists. Though the links I gave will be easier to follow for the average layperson. Which why I gave them.

 

[Talarin]

If you or Jason don't like those links I gave then hop over to realclimate. They debunk those exact same arguments. And it's run by climate scientists.

But you don't know what argument has been made. You literally are taking a position of "this source is better than that source" without addressing any substance. It's rather like you arguing that a choice of ice-cream flavour is better than another without having tried it or even seen it.

I doubt very much that you would watch that video and come away thinking "my word, Morano is right" - but you're contesting a point that you literally know nothing about. At least do other posters the courtesy of putting some effort in before telling them they're wrong.

 

[Senzafine]

But you don't know what argument has been made. You literally are taking a position of "this source is better than that source" without addressing any substance. It's rather like you arguing that a choice of ice-cream flavour is better than another without having tried it or even seen it.

I doubt very much that you would watch that video and come away thinking "my word, Morano is right" - but you're contesting a point that you literally know nothing about. At least do other posters the courtesy of putting some effort in before telling them they're wrong.

Over the past 15 years or so I must have been on hundreds if not thousands of CC threads, I've seen all the arguments that AGW deniers make by hundreds of people like Jason and Morano, it's the same damn thing over and over and over again. It doesn't matter how many times they're debunked by even the most knowledgeable, erudite and persuasive the same zombie arguments will pop up yet again and by the same people. I don't need to watch the video, I saw the list of "arguments" and knew it was a complete waste of time. Don't tell me you were daft enough to go over and watch the whole bloody thing?

You know Talarin, for someone who claims to believe in AGW, it would make rather a nice change if you spent your energies trying to educate and convince deniers like Jason rather than having a go at the rest of us. As is your wont. It really gives the impression that you are a denier too, which according to you, you aren't. I know we disagree on how big the A part of GW is but we at least seem to agree on the need to reduce emissions. So let's cooperate and try and get Jason on board too. Though I don't hold much hope there. In all those hundreds of threads I've been on, I've never witnessed anyone with his views and political stance budge so much as a millimetre.

 

[jasonbarron]

Over the past 15 years or so I must have been on hundreds if not thousands of CC threads, I've seen all the arguments that AGW deniers make by hundreds of people like Jason and Morano, it's the same damn thing over and over and over again. It doesn't matter how many times they're debunked by even the most knowledgeable, erudite and persuasive the same zombie arguments will pop up yet again and by the same people. I don't need to watch the video, I saw the list of "arguments" and knew it was a complete waste of time. Don't tell me you were daft enough to go over and watch the whole bloody thing?

You know Talarin, for someone who claims to believe in AGW, it would make rather a nice change if you spent your energies trying to educate and convince deniers like Jason rather than having a go at the rest of us. As is your wont. It really gives the impression that you are a denier too, which according to you, you aren't. I know we disagree on how big the A part of GW is but we at least seem to agree on the need to reduce emissions. So let's cooperate and try and get Jason on board too. Though I don't hold much hope there. In all those hundreds of threads I've been on, I've never witnessed anyone with his views and political stance budge so much as a millimetre.

For the record I made the same arguments when the fear promotion was global cooling. And again when it became apparent that the world wasn't cooling and the fear promotion shifted to global warming. Then, again when it shifted to be more all inclusively titled "climate change" in an effort to literally cover all the bases. My position over the years (and not living stuck in a city dependent solely on a public transportation system that restricts you to a teensy little area no bigger than the city you currently inhabit where you see no more of the natural world than a local park) has been very consistent; despite world leaders completely in control of the messaging telling us that we're doomed unless we give them more money and power, the sky simply is not falling. We're not doomed, and messaging to the contrary are flat out lies designed to persuade people like you that have no objective measuring stick to judge otherwise that we are.