Reduce the grind

[AgentGB]

I want to go to a location where I will play the game at.
Sorry but you gotta do the Rabbit Hop 120 times to get there.....GRIND
Hey I want to customize my Ship to be what I want.
Sorry but you gotta do the fetch all, and run the RNG gauntlet before you can do that.....GRIND
Question is How much GRIND, before a Game turns into WORK, which is the reason why you play a game in the first place.
OK Devs are at WORK, they do not need to sit us in their Cubicle.
Maybe they are mad at us for the Time they have to spend there GRINDING?

Not sure its gonna make their life anymore harder by loosening some of the grind where its been over done or gates certain gameplay behind such tedious grind like collecting tons of mats for engineers just to get into something combat capable for pvp. It may actually even see a rise in positive steam reviews. I understand there are certain core aspects of the game that are part & parcel like travel, but i don't think driving around on planets four hours collecting raw materials is terribly enjoyable. Remember this is something that came with Horizon later & was not in the base game when the balance imo was quite fine. Some fans from other games completely lose it with companies that put power creeps into expansions that make the base game content inferior. So asking that the grind be reduced by offering other means to obtain these materials other than going down to planets is not a dire ask. Especially when we can see it can already be done with the upcoming content with carriers that is both compatible to both the base game & Horizon while offering Fleet Carrier owners two means of obtaining said fuel resource, either by purchasing it or mining it, which vastly cuts alot of the grind & still offers an option to manually collect said resource.

I understand where you're coming from that it must tick the dev's off, but i mean, gotta give my feedback on it, if i have a point some may agree, if they don't then i'm sure i'll be ignored anyway. They must play their own game anyway & realize some of the grind is a bit whack in some places, i honestly don't believe every dev at FD is of a single mind & their opinions differ just like ours here.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

It's a game, you don't invest time in it. You play it, you have fun by playing it, and that's your reward. And at some point that game's servers will be shut down, or you will lose interest, and all that time you spent investing rather than enjoying will be wasted.
If you see playing the game as an obstacle on the way to having fun, you're not playing, you're working.

The thing is that in many cases the processes to get X in ED are not fun.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Perhaps the 'grind' should be increased 100 fold, maybe even 10,000 times more difficult to obtain higher grade materials...

Just a suggestion, I do hope Fdev read this particularly good suggestion to reduce grind

(think about it - if it was nigh on impossible to go 'meta' it would actually reduce the amount of time people 'grind' as it would be, effectively, pointless and then the game could be enjoyed for what it is rather than what it could be)

That'd only kill the oportunity of newer players to compete with those previous to such ludicrous update.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

This conversation reminds me of the time Apple made a mistake on one of the Iphones and the signal died on certain angles while using it, Apple's respones? You are holding it wrong...

 

[WinterKing2112]

So you don't have a fully Engineered combat ship yet? So, haven't experienced the grind to the fullest it would seem.

I have most of the Engineers unlocked. I have a combat FDL A-rated with G5 upgrades for 2 loadouts. I also have a combat Anaconda upgraded with G5 upgrades and a G5 exploration build. I have an Asp Explorer which is fully upgraded to G5 and some half finished smaller ships (Viper, Cobra Mk3 and Vulture iirc). These were done over about a year which included several extended breaks from the game. They were a tedious pain in the butt to finish. Each time, there was some novelty at the start and I enjoyed doing it (kind of). It did however involve so much repetitive gameplay that by the end of each upgrade, I couldn't be arsed playing anymore. So I'd take another break and so on.

I came back to check out Thargoids. I flew to the first Guardian site, did a few rounds which were mindnumbingly boring and far too easy. I examined my haul, did a quick mental calculations of how many runs it would take to put an interesting build together, then logged out. The atmosphere was awesome at the Guardian site, but this was completely overshadowed by the repetition. The same could be said of Dav's Hope.

I returned after some time to do some exploration, but "tuning in" planetary bodies 500 times became a tedious grind also. It's super easy, repetitive and ultimately mind-numbingly boring.

After the Guardian sites and comparing the gameplay to Engineering material collection and the FSS, there was no denying that tedium is a strategy employed by FDev to squeeze longevity out of content, in my opinion. So, I made a decision to quit the game until there is a material change in how they design their gameplay. It's unlikely that a developer will make such a drastic fundamental change, but I don't believe it's unprecedented.

My definition of Grind
Time ≠ Grind
Repetition - Skill = Unrewarding Gameplay = Grind

I agree with your comments Re: Dav's Hope and the Guardian site. I went to Dav's Hope to check it out, the story was tragic, as were the meagre mats lying around, so I did not bother to re-log. I don't grind for mats, that's not fun. The Guardians site took 2 goes: messed the first one up by not killing the sentries as they appeared so ended up with too many to deal with, had to re-log and do it again! Went to one if the ruins too, got sone data then left. 'Cos I don't grind and all I wanted was the fsd booster I was not going to re-log and do the thing over and over. I may go back one day just to check it out again, it was sorta cool for an hour or so, but not cool enough that I would re-log repeatedly to get mats. Anyhoo, it's been good communicating with all of you but this topic has gotten very old. See you all on another thread.

 

[Jukelo]

The thing is that in many cases the processes to get X in ED are not fun.

Why is THAT not being discussed then rather than these meaningless complaints about the grind?

 

[Garbarrage]

Why is THAT not being discussed then rather than these meaningless complaints about the grind?

This is what's being discussed. It's a single issue. If the process was fun or didn't have to be repeated so many times after it stopped being fun, it would not be a grind.

I've only experienced the level of grind in Elite in Free to Play games, where the business model relies on luring players in for free, then locking content behind grind walls in order to coerce cash purchases. It's inexcusable in the business model Frontier are using. There's no real benefit to it and in general it just ticks people off.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Ahem, I think that's exactly what this is really all about ...

Check out the OP, he appears to want a G3 engineered FdL in just 2 hours of play!



All the talk of "better" gameplay is just a smokescreen, as far as I can tell. Nobody would turn down "better" gameplay, but you'd have to be incredibly naïve to believe FDev could deliver this successfully, quickly, and to the universal praise of every player. Please bear in mind thst this is a one-game-fits-all approach by FDev, and any changes would be difficult to gain approval of all players. I reckon that FDev walk this tightrope reasonably well. Sure, it ain't perfect, but I always said never let "perfect" be the enemy of a "good"/"fair"/"broadly acceptable" solution

I think even if Fdev add in lots of different ways to get something, people will just grind it out in one place is it is more efficient and faster and then complain about it after.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

This is what's being discussed. It's a single issue. If the process was fun or didn't have to be repeated so many times after it stopped being fun, it would not be a grind.

Repetition isn't the issue. Its doing that repetition continously without doing anything else inbetween. Even the best mechanic in the world would end up feeling like a grind if you do that. I choose not to.

 

[Brrokk]

This is what's being discussed. It's a single issue. If the process was fun or didn't have to be repeated so many times after it stopped being fun, it would not be a grind.

I've only experienced the level of grind in Elite in Free to Play games, where the business model relies on luring players in for free, then locking content behind grind walls in order to coerce cash purchases. It's inexcusable in the business model Frontier are using. There's no real benefit to it and in general it just ticks people off.

It's strange. I haven't experienced any level of grind in Elite.

 

[Helgarth]

NMS is not like Elite in any way.

Elite is a simulation for you playing the space ship commander. You actually have to fly the ship, not press L. So it is a simulator, for a far future space ship. Your actually flying the thing.

Which is exactly what I like, along with many others. Otherwise I would be playing something else.

Ahahahahaha!!! Ahahaha! Ahaha.... Oh wait.... You were being serious???

In what way Elite is a simulator????

Where is the part where you have to turn the engines on? Where is the part you have to manually engage the drives? Probe the unexplored systems to calculate the destinations of your drive? Send infinite probes on planet surfaces to scan them? What? NPCs unaware of silent running? Kaboom in space? Aliens ships? Aliens?

A space ship commander? Where is your crew? You can fly Anaconda alone!!! A simulator would require a crew of what.... 10 guys?

Simulator???

You fly the ship? Yeah so you have the same controls than NMS tho.... Basically the button to deploy your landing pad is the same as the landing button on NMS... You are just pressing buttons to activate things! Yo udon't have to mouseover or anything like that! I would love to do that in Elite! Would be less boring than screen staring...

Say what you want but Elite is arcade...

In the current iteration of the game, Star citizen is a wayyyyyyyy more good simulation than Elite (never said it was a better game tho regarding its unfinished state).

If Elite were a simulation, You would actually have so much more to do to accomplish 1 small thing! It would probably be more engaging...

 

[CMDR Big Mike]

Ahahahahaha!!! Ahahaha! Ahaha.... Oh wait.... You were being serious???

In what way Elite is a simulator????

Where is the part where you have to turn the engines on? Where is the part you have to manually engage the drives? Probe the unexplored systems to calculate the destinations of your drive? Send infinite probes on planet surfaces to scan them? What? NPCs unaware of silent running? Kaboom in space? Aliens ships? Aliens?

A space ship commander? Where is your crew? You can fly Anaconda alone!!! A simulator would require a crew of what.... 10 guys?

Simulator???

You fly the ship? Yeah so you have the same controls than NMS tho.... Basically the button to deploy your landing pad is the same as the landing button on NMS... You are just pressing buttons to activate things! Yo udon't have to mouseover or anything like that! I would love to do that in Elite! Would be less boring than screen staring...

Say what you want but Elite is arcade...

In the current iteration of the game, Star citizen is a wayyyyyyyy more good simulation than Elite (never said it was a better game tho regarding its unfinished state).

If Elite were a simulation, You would actually have so much more to do to accomplish 1 small thing! It would probably be more engaging...

ED definitely dances the line between sim and normal game. I don’t think it is as black and white as you present.

 

[CMDR Big Mike]

It's strange. I haven't experienced any level of grind in Elite.

Probably not the thread for you then, bub.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Ahahahahaha!!! Ahahaha! Ahaha.... Oh wait.... You were being serious???

In what way Elite is a simulator????

Where is the part where you have to turn the engines on? Where is the part you have to manually engage the drives? Probe the unexplored systems to calculate the destinations of your drive? Send infinite probes on planet surfaces to scan them? What? NPCs unaware of silent running? Kaboom in space? Aliens ships? Aliens?

I suspect there would be a level of automation in the future. I wouldn't compare it a modern day Flight simulator as that is just silly.

A space ship commander? Where is your crew? You can fly Anaconda alone!!! A simulator would require a crew of what.... 10 guys?

A commander doesn't require a crew if it doesn't need one. But I agree that larger ships should have a crew. But saying that we don't know what the future holds. A single person may be able to solo pilot an anaconda.

Simulator???

Yup

You fly the ship? Yeah so you have the same controls than NMS tho.... Basically the button to deploy your landing pad is the same as the landing button on NMS... You are just pressing buttons to activate things! Yo udon't have to mouseover or anything like that! I would love to do that in Elite! Would be less boring than screen staring...

Just like any other simulator or game. You use a control method of choice and you go.

Say what you want but Elite is arcade...

I suggest you look up the term Arcade as you seem to now know what it means.

In the current iteration of the game, Star citizen is a wayyyyyyyy more good simulation than Elite (never said it was a better game tho regarding its unfinished state).

This is a complete joke isn't it. The flight model in Star Citizen is shocking and far more unrealistic then ED. It may change in the future, is it has one that is.

If Elite were a simulation, You would actually have so much more to do to accomplish 1 small thing! It would probably be more engaging...

How do you know. You been to the year 3305 to find out? As to engaging, well that is purely subjective. What you find engaging, other may find to be a complete bore fest.

 

[DeletedUser191218]

All the talk of "better" gameplay is just a smokescreen, as far as I can tell. Nobody would turn down "better" gameplay, but you'd have to be incredibly naïve to believe FDev could deliver this successfully, quickly, and to the universal praise of every player. Please bear in mind thst this is a one-game-fits-all approach by FDev, and any changes would be difficult to gain approval of all players. I reckon that FDev walk this tightrope reasonably well. Sure, it ain't perfect, but I always said never let "perfect" be the enemy of a "good"/"fair"/"broadly acceptable" solution

Do you think reducing the grind would be frowned upon by a greater number of players than those it would please? I continually read posts defending the grind while simultaneously proclaiming how great it is the grind was reduced from the first iteration of engineers. Presumably those same players defended that system at the time. The conclusion one must draw is their defence lacks credibility as they would more than likely be very quick to sing the praises of FDev were they to reduce the engineering grind. This is a fairly salient point actually. They argue against a change they'd celebrate. It's inconsistent.

 

[DeletedUser191218]

How do you know. You been to the year 3305 to find out?

It's not a simulation if it's 'simulating' something that doesn't exist. If you're going to argue that shooting lasers at alien spaceships constitutes 'simulation' then I'm afraid you've left the grounds of plausability.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

It's not a simulation if it's 'simulating' something that doesn't exist. If you're going to argue that shooting lasers at alien spaceships constitutes 'simulation' then I'm afraid you've left the grounds of plausability.

As it goes, I don't think the game is a space ship simulator. I like to call ED a galaxy sim with a game attached to it. As to the flight model, well thats a mixture of newtonian and fun model to create something pretty good. But it isn't "arcade".

 

[Valorin]

Hey Frontier, NMS reduced the grind and all players are happy. Please take note.

So I recently started playing NMS (together with my wife, kinda got addicted... both of us), and I absolutely don't get why this game has ever been compared to Elite at all... Sure, there are space ships. That's all. Really. Ships in NMS are a means to an end. You point it and you go there. Done. No thrusters, just going forward and rotating and you push a button to automatically land. The rest of the game is running around on fantasy planets doing lots of cool stuff...
NMS is set in a fantasy galaxy set in a fantasy universe, it's very lighthearted, not scientific at all... It's awesome by itself, but comparing it to Elite is like comparing DOOM with GTA. Yes, you can shoot things in both games. That's it.
In this case it's space ships. These games have nothing more in common.

Concerning the grind:
I stand by my opinion that grind is only in the head of the player in Elite. Never grinded anything in the game in about 4 years of playing. You only end up grinding when you want something fast that is supposed to take a while, and yeah, Elite is a game where things take some time.
Also, when you look at mining and exploration payouts nowadays, money is much too fast to get. People have Anacondas and Belugas before they learn to dock themselves in their Sidewinders.

 

[Helgarth]

Yeah you can. Don't be ridiculous.

You CAN "do combat zones" and you CAN do bounty hunting, and you also CAN play in CG zones without always getting destroyed. Sure, it isn't as effective without top-level G5 upgrades, but all of these things CAN be done.

It clearly doesn't take a lot of effort to upgrade to G2 or G3 or G4 in a great number of modules - so much so that I'd done quite a bit of engineering myself without once ever having to go and search out the required materials. And that was before material traders. Now it is much, much easier to get a bit more from whatever materials you have stored simply from regular gaming.

I even remember in the beginning of Engineers, the planetary materials were far more sparse, with no barnacles or geo sites to concentrate the materials in an easily found location. Those days may have been described more easily as a grind and I remember a great many PvP combat enthusiasts back in that era complaining about the grind, and in hindsight they were probably right back then. But gameplay now offers everything so much more readily available, so I don't subscribe to the current game as "Grindy" in the slightest.

Besides - there are still players playing this game without the Horizons DLC.

How on earth do they manage to engage with the game, if those things you listed "CAN'T" be pursued without engineering?

No I can't do all this, that's why I stopped playing. When I entered CZ for the first times and got insta destroyed I thought about something wrong in my almost full A class vyper... Then I read about engineering and stopped playing...

Are you going to throw me the "get good" story?

I'm not good and will likely never be, but there is still content locked for me unless I grind... Content that I enjoyed at the first place... So I stopped playing... Pretty simple to understand I think.

Almost nobody plays without the horizon stop fooling yourself... The ones that do are trying out the game then quit.

 

[CMDR Big Mike]

Concerning the grind:
I stand by my opinion that grind is only in the head of the player in Elite. Never grinded anything in the game in about 4 years of playing. You only end up grinding when you want something fast that is supposed to take a while, and yeah, Elite is a game where things take some time.

Agreed, there is nothing wrong with things taking time, even a lot of time. That is not the issue. Where people get frustrated is that "taking a long time" in this game means repeating the same 10-15 min task 100s of times.

The credits example is great. I do not think that credits are a grind in the current state of the game. You literally need billions of them, but there are many varying ways to obtain them. If missions get boring, go mine. Sick of that? Go hunting at a haz res or whatever.

I am like a broken record on this, but even the guardian stuff is super fun, but sites need to be re done over and over to get the guardian weapons. And then one needs to unlock each size weapon individually. It is a thinly veiled time sink. Something that was very fun is tainted when you have to repeat it so much.

Regarding engineers, then could accomplish the same thing by having 50 different mats (instead of over 100), and 3 different grades of rarity. And then you spend the mats on a "roll" that gets you varying degrees of improvement. Its a faff. They could easily make it a straight purchase. The fun of engineering is adjusting the ship and seeing what effects will compliment the build and be helpful. This fun is locked behind hunting space trash, of which you need varying amounts that are spread across 5 grades of rarity.

They can streamline a lot of things without making them "faster", but so they would make sense and not be annoying