Reducing the Combat vs Non-Combat Optimal Build Gap

One of the issues regularly seen is that of the ganked ship being destroyed in seconds, another is that PvP battles take too long. Both of these common complaints boil down to optimised combat builds being so tough that it's affecting how enjoyable combat can be.

Now with the ganked ship that is destroyed 'in seconds' a lot of that comes down to player experience (or naivety), in simply not realising just how much firepower a well equipped ship can bring to bear in an alpha strike (that first big hit that does as much damage as possible before the wep cap is drained).
Massive shields can certainly help, but that consumes internal and external module slots that ideally the player would prefer to use for much more common activities, and without direct experience of how much defence is needed to survive it's difficult for the inexperienced player to plan their build with defences appropriate not only for regular NPC encounters, but for PvP encounters too.

Currently the majority of NPCs a non-combat focused player meets on a day-to-day basis have un-engineered weapons, and for content that is delivered to the player (rather than specific scenarios the player opts into, like challenging missions or alien stuff) I believe that's the correct path.

However when encountering engineered weapons once the shield goes down it's usually game over for the non-combat loadout without a pretty severely compromised loadout.

Many have suggested that engineers is the problem, that SCBs, Shield boosters and other hitpoint buffing modules should be removed, and I would be in favour of that. But that's going back, and with power creep an inevitability in modern games I'd like to suggest an alternative:


I propose the base hull hitpoints for all purchasable ships be buffed across the board.



This allows the TTK (time to kill) to be extended once shields go down, it also means all those hitpoint inflating modules still work, but their extra defence represents a smaller portion of the overall toughness of any build.

This also means NPCs will take longer to kill, but by extending the player's own TTK it allows the minimum safe build to be a little less combat focused, for example the trader could carry more cargo and still have time to jump away from danger.

Now this will of course extend these frustrating PvP combat ship vs combat ship battles even further, so we need another buff to get shields down faster.


I propose that all weapons become more effective against shields, but no change against hull damage.


These two buffs will allow all ships to be more tanky, and move combat away from ultimate shield strength and more about hull strength.


Please, pull this apart and find a downside. If you find a flaw point it out, if you can propose a solution to the flaw you find. Even if you just like or don't like the idea, please reply to give your opinion visibility, as per Brett's sticky thread.
 
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"I propose that all weapons become more effective against shields, but no change against hull damage."

Given resistance modifcations are a thing, the only way to achieve this is to nerf shield MJ.

"I propose the base hull hitpoints for all purchasable ships be buffed across the board."

There isnt much use having 60% hull left if your PP & drives have been shot out.

Ships would need to become much more resilient to module damage & weapon special effects while hulltanking for this to be anything but hateful for most players. If u take shields out of the equation it opens an even bigger gulf between PvP and PvE, since when im coaxing the background sim, knowing the ins & outs of all the special effects, their nuances, which ones stack, which dont, why my FSD just rebooted when i nearly escaped, why my ship is now spinning out of control, why i was blind for 30 secs, now my cockpit is being electrocuted, and my hair is on fire & now i cant breathe. I never knew my ship had so many warning lights. All this stuff is way worse when shields go down. Much of that, and the DPS inflation coupled with ability to fire longer, cooler, is really FDEV's response to the failed attempt to nerf shields 15 months ago, imo.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
I'd expect that making NPCs take longer to destroy would not be generally well received.

.... and anything that reduces TTK in PvP, recognising that not all PvP is sought by both parties involved, might be similarly challenging to gain support for.
 
So thats my whining done. Constructively, I already posted on Frenotx's thread relating to this issue https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/418050-Let-s-Fix-SCBs but the post was delayed and was buried later on an earlier page as a result, so ill repost it here in brief. Ive thought about this stuff since the failed nerf, so there are plenty of reasons why I think it works, but bullet points for now, anyways...

1) All SCB regen/sec reduced by at least 50%
2) SCB mass reduced by the same proportion.
3) SCB resistance to current damage being taken increased noticeably.
4) Equipped shield regen added to SCB regen rate while it is in operation, regardless of whether fire is taken during SCB operation.
5) Max of 2 SCBs per loadout.
6) Max of 3/4/5 shield boosters for small/med/large ships respectively.
7) cascade rails reducing remaining SCB time, not effectiveness while still in operation.

Yes theres a lot of changes there, but none of these need any change to the fundamental mechanics or function of any modules.

Crunching some numbers, it should bring a Cutter's theoretical shield max down by 50-60%, (still over 11000mj for prismatic, about 1000mj less for biweave & A-rate, but A-rate & biweave being more dependent on running SCBs to get those numbers, & using them all without being cascade-railed)
 
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A lot of the problem imo comes from defensive modules competing for space with functional modules. Shield boosters vs. heatsinks, the various scanners, and anti missile defenses. HRP / MRP / SCB vs. cargo, mining equipment, exploration gear, etc. Since people doing anything other than combat will generally need to use those slots for profession-related gear, they're immediately at a significant disadvantage from a raw health standpoint. Since those defensive module can add a TON of extra health (100%+ increase, even without engineering), the combat-fit ship could be piloted by a vastly inferior pilot and still have a very good chance of winning vs. a non-combat fit pilot. You can argue that this trade-off "adds interesting build decisions", but it really doesn't. A cargo ship has to fit cargo bays to be able to do its job. A miner needs cargo and a refinery to do its job. An explorer needs disco scanners to do their job. All of these things immediatly and unavoidably put them at a major disadvantage in a fight. To resolve this, I proposed the following a while back (quoted from the thread, so "source" links to it):
Currently, defensive modules compete for space with a variety of other things. Shield cell banks and hull / module reinforcement packages compete with all other optional internals, and shield boosters compete with anti-missile systems, heatsinks, and the various scanners. On paper, this seems like a good design direction; reinforcing your ship comes at the cost of flexibility. In practice though, I believe it's actually hurting the game.

The Solution:
Military slots were a step in the right direction, but didn't quite go far enough. I propose the following:


  • Bulkheads (the core armour module) now have "module bays", similar to how the SRV bay works.
    • You can only fit hull and module reinforcement packages in these slots.
    • This is THE ONLY PLACE you can fit hull and module reinforcement packages.
    • The size and number of slots available will vary, depending on how durable FDev wants a given ship to be.
  • Shield generators now have "module bays", similar to how the SRV bay works.
    • Shield boosters and shield cell banks can be fit in these slots
    • Size and class of generator decides how many slots it will have, and what class they are
    • You can only fit a module of the matching class in a given slot, similar to how sensors work
    • Larger class shield boosters provide the same boost percentages of smaller ones, but draw more power
      • The idea is to keep the relative cost of a shield booster consistent as you go up in ship sizes.
      • The lore justification would be that it takes more power to boost a larger shield.

Why this is good:
  • FDev can now more tightly control the durability of a ship as a point of balance.
  • The base stats of a ship are now relevant again, instead of only the thing mattering being its internal and utility slot count
  • A player encountering a given ship will have a pretty decent idea of how tough that ship can be. With the current system, it's really anyone's guess.
  • Players are still faced with several decisions when building their ship's defenses: "What ratio of hull-to-module protection do I want? Do I want large shields (boosters), or would I rather have the ability to rapidly replenish them more (shield cell banks)
  • Players no longer have to choose between engaging with the various in-game activities, OR fitting their ship with enough defense to handle a PvP fit attacker.
  • Cargo ships can mount a respectable defense, AND haul a lot of cargo. This allows pirating to be a more interesting activity for all parties.
  • Since defenses are more even across the various professions, this allows organic player-on-player interaction to flourish and for people to play in open more comfortably.
  • Gankers will have a much-smaller raw durability advantage when attacking unwilling victims.
  • Players looking to engage in PvP (bounty hunters patrolling a CG, for instance) wont have to "lock themselves out" of all other activities (by using all their internals for defense) just to keep up with the defense of the baddies.
  • Specializing in combat can be more about utility and endurance, instead of just raw defense. This keeps the single-fight performance difference lower, and thus the fights more fair.

The Problem I'm trying to solve:

  • Defensive modules competing for space with everything else stifles the possibility of "organic player-on-player interactions", drives people out of open, and makes balancing PvE combat extremely tricky.
    • The impact that defensive modules have on the survivability of a ship is immense. Especially when you get engineering involved, a ship with several structural reinforcement packages, shield cell banks, and shield boosters will have potentially several hundred percent the total effective health of a ship that just has upgraded bulkheads, and a shield generator. What this leads to is the following: a ship that's built specifically and exclusively just to kill another ship is WILDLY more health than one that's built to perform a variety of activities in-game. What this means is that a player that's specifically geared their ship for PvP has an enormous advantage over someone who's ship has been built to engage with the rest of the game's content. A pilot of a PvE ship, even one geared for the various PvE combat activities in the game, will need to potentially do several times as much damage as their attacker to have a chance at victory. If someone has a ship designed for non-combat-focused PvE activities, the difference becomes even more immense. A fight is completely out of the question, and even just escape is dubious.
    • A cargo ship can choose between being able to haul a respectable amount of cargo (doing the thing they actually want to do), or have an even remotely respectable amount of defense. The obvious choice is to fit cargo racks, then simply avoid risk by hauling in solo / pg.
    • A fight that is an appropriate difficulty for a general-purpose fit combat ship (with several internals dedicated to things like a fuel scoop, SRV (for scanning planetary installations), small cargo rack (for cargo mission rewards), limpet controller (for collecting materials), etc.) can be made trivial if the player instead just stack defenses.
    • Balancing a given ship becomes difficult, since things like optional internal slots and utility slots can be converted directly into raw survivability instead of just utility. The FDL is a great example of this: a lot of its strength comes from its 6 utility mounts. Those were presumably added to give the ship the ability to fit all the bounty-hunting frills like KWS, anti-missile systems, and heatsink launchers (in keeping with its luxury bounty hunter lore). In practice however, many of those slots just get used for shield boosters leaving the ship extremely durable.
    • A small general-purpose ship like the Diamondback Explorer stuffed with hull reinforcement packages can have almost as much armour as an Anaconda with military bulkheads. The range of possible durability for a given ship is immense, and potentially eliminates a lot of the character of a ship.
 
Meh. Traders already got a hull buff and it didn't do a thing. Hull damage is not the problem. Module damage is. Especially seekers and super penetrators almost oneshot essential modules like drives or the powerplant, leaving any ship a floating brick o' steel at 90% hull remaining. We need to be able to engineer MRPs so we survive more than two super penentrator railgun shots. Especially big ships suffer from that. Once their shields go down, even with 2 MRPs and alot of hull, they are dead due to their lack of agility, speed and their giant hitbox.
Rails are almost guaranteed to hit here.

Nerf the super penetrator effect and we are fine. Maybe add a 50% range reduction or simply reduce module damage.
 
Meh. Traders already got a hull buff and it didn't do a thing. Hull damage is not the problem. Module damage is. Especially seekers and super penetrators almost oneshot essential modules like drives or the powerplant, leaving any ship a floating brick o' steel at 90% hull remaining. We need to be able to engineer MRPs so we survive more than two super penentrator railgun shots. Especially big ships suffer from that. Once their shields go down, even with 2 MRPs and alot of hull, they are dead due to their lack of agility, speed and their giant hitbox.
Rails are almost guaranteed to hit here.

Nerf the super penetrator effect and we are fine. Maybe add a 50% range reduction or simply reduce module damage.

As crazy as it sounds, I'd love to see super penetrator get a massive damage nerf ala high yield shell. At first I was really against that change, but as I thought about it, it made more sense.
Yes high yield shell (and in this example superpen) will do half its normal damage when hitting a single module, but... That's not what it's for. It's for hitting several modules. If you hit two modules with that shot you're back to 100% Total damage. 3 modules and you're at 150%. It makes those weapons good when hitting several modules (their job) while bad at hitting one (not their job). It makes them a good weapon for countering MRPs when aimed to hit as many modules as possible, while at the same time making them less effective at killing SPECIFIC modules once the MRPs are dead.

Alternatively, FDev could alter superpen to divide its damage among all modules hit, instead of doing full damage to all. This would still give them the advantage of caring less about the target's orientation, but would still make it matter some.

Missiles I'm less worried about because of the various counters you them (except for packhounds, which are their own bag of worms).
 
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Interesting proposal.
I like it.

I also would buy into the idea of engineering MRPs.
One shotting FSD/thrusters/powerplant into oblivion should not be as easy.

Talking from the side of sacrifice...
 
It would depend how it reduced it. If it brought the high end down but kept the low end the same, no-one outside a combat ship would notice it had been done, and escaping an undesired fight would remain easy.

Thank you, this was my first thought when reading Robert's reply too. There are no specifics in the OP, different ships could be buffed by different amounts.


Module damage is an issue this proposal does not address, the reason why I didn't is because of piracy - the window to disable a ship without destroying it would become wider (lowering the skill requirement). Personally I don't see this as a bad thing since module destruction is not a guaranteed kill. The probability of destruction on repeated power plant hits could be changed to improve survival though, or arguably ship destruction only made possible by bringing the hull to zero.


Thanks for the feedback so far, keep it coming please :)
 
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Interesting proposal.
I like it.

I also would buy into the idea of engineering MRPs.
One shotting FSD/thrusters/powerplant into oblivion should not be as easy.

Talking from the side of sacrifice...

I would definitely support more potential for optional module protection, yes. I didn't realise MRPs (module reinforcement) couldn't be engineered.
 
As crazy as it sounds, I'd love to see super penetrator get a massive damage nerf ala high yield shell. At first I was really against that change, but as I thought about it, it made more sense.
Yes high yield shell (and in this example superpen) will do half its normal damage when hitting a single module, but... That's not what it's for. It's for hitting several modules. If you hit two modules with that shot you're back to 100% Total damage. 3 modules and you're at 150%. It makes those weapons good when hitting several modules (their job) while bad at hitting one (not their job). It makes them a good weapon for countering MRPs when aimed to hit as many modules as possible, while at the same time making them less effective at killing SPECIFIC modules once the MRPs are dead.

Alternatively, FDev could alter superpen to divide its damage among all modules hit, instead of doing full damage to all. This would still give them the advantage of caring less about the target's orientation, but would still make it matter some.

Missiles I'm less worried about because of the various counters you them (except for packhounds, which are their own bag of worms).

That's wrong. Compared to HYS cannons, super pens only deal 100% of their damage and can't excess it. They deal a fraction of their breach damage to the first module hit, one third to the next next module hit and some less damge to the third one, capping here. HYS deal their full damage to multiple modules, which scales 100%*[Amount of modules] and ca neasily exceed 100%.
I'm all for supporting to half the damage of the super pens. So yo udeal 50% module damage and for the super penetrator effect, you pay with 50% raw damage as well so it is ineffective in grinding down shields and/or hull. It's EITHER module damage OR hull damage.

I am starting to build a FDL stealth bomber. It will feature dual super pens and (believe it or not) a C4F OC HYS cannon. 70 damage/shot is insanely high for modules and considering the HYS splash effect, it's still insanely good against modules, but not to grind dow nshields/hull.
However, since my FDL will be a stealth bomber, raw damage is not what I am looking for.
Kill the MRPs with the HYS and snipe the PP/FSD with the dual super pens ... or single super pen and a FSD missile.

That said, I believe that nerfing the damage of super pens by 50% is fairly reasonable as stackign them is still very effective against anything without more than two MRPs. So a FDL without any MRPs is going to suffer from super pens just as before ... however, hulltanks actively protecting their modules with blueprints and MRPs will have twice as much health and can sustain up to 20 hits while the FDL can sustain 4 instead of 2 hits. The difference is large enough to justify this nerf.
Considering super pen and FC got a -40% heat buff, I really think this is reasonable.
 
Just another thought, speed is also a good defence. If the mass of defensive & offensive modules were significantly increased outfitting for offence would become more of a dilemma because your ship would be unable to catch the lighter, faster ship.

The optimal (meta) build would become one with less than just the maximum hitpoints, potentially one that uses smaller weapons than the mounts are capable of taking.

HRPs (for example) would need to weigh significantly more than the equivalent filled cargo module.

This would allow dedicated PvP ships (where there is no intention to escape the fight) to still slug is out with each other, but the non-PvP build would become fast enough to outrun them. Skill would still be a factor for both Combat pilot & escapee.
 
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