Relative mouse nerf or Hotas control needs a bit of love.

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EDITED 1ST JULY ACORDING TO A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO REQUESTED ME. BELIEVE IT WAS NOT MY INTENTION TO START A BIG DRAMA

Hi folks,

I have been playing elite dangerous for about 4 and a half years and making pvp for the last 2 years.

If you see the top, for example, 200 pvp players in this game, roughly 10% are using HOTAS or ar least joystick, and the rest are using the mouse + keyboard + relative mouse combo.
This simple percentages indicate is not balanced

Everybody who makes pvp in this game knows HOTAS users has to practice much more to be acurate in shooting and even in FA off control than a mouse and keyboard user, and this is not an exageration, it is a fact, so again, is not balanced.

Maybe the FDEV team haven´t tested enough because I think If they do it they would realize easily.

So what I am asking from from frontier is to balance these mechanics, introducing some mechanic that make control and aiming a bit easier for HOTAS users, specially in FA-OFF

Anyone who thinks I am not right, can see on internet on thousand videos, how easy is to hit with long range railguns using keyboard and mouse, and on the other hand with HOTAS is more difficult.

Or also can test it flying in FA off with mouse and keyboard, and then try the same with a HOTAS.

Regards.
 
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So what I am asking from from frontier is to balance these mechanics, maybe nerfing the relative mouse efect to make the control and aiming with mouse a bit more difficult or maybe introducing some mechanic that make control and aiming a bit easier for HOTAS users
I disagree with the first line, nerfing what others have is never a solution (it could turn around and bite you in the back). You're still free to use Mouse and Keyboard yourself.
Even a good joystick cannot match a gamer mouse in responsiveness and precision. But I have a twist and additional thumb sticks for laterals which I can use.

I can think of two things which might increase stick responsiveness:
1) An option to add some curve with smoother changes around the center
2) Some optional self centering like for the mouse to eliminate the need for a dead zone
 
Honestly, look at what relative mouse does - it applies a counter rotational correction so that when you stop moving your mouse, your ship stops spinning.
If centering the stick did the same thing, that's all that would really be needed to bring the two into line.

More like FE2's version of FA-off where your ship retained its directional momentum unless you applied thrust, but angular momentum wasn't preserved so you didn't go a-spinning.
 
Hello,

I support this issue! I think FDEV should offer a solution, I play with Flight Simulator (HOTAS) and I don't have problem and I have play Elite and especially have a this problem.

I couldnt do PvP for long time because of this issue.

o7
 
Everybody who makes pvp in this game knows HOTAS users has to practice much more to be acurate in shooting and even in FA off control than a mouse and keyboard user, and this is not an exageration, it is a fact, so again, is not balanced.
I disagree with your post, but I am going to highlight this specific section and elaborate upon it first.

Elite: Dangerous is a multiplatform game, therefore it accepts a wide variety of peripherals. This is including but not limited to controllers (PlayStation and Xbox etc), mouse and keyboard (every computer user has this for normal computer use), hands on throttle-and-stick (HOTAS and often associated with die hard simulation users), and some combination of these, an example being throttle and mouse.

CMDRs can mix and match these to their hearts desire when playing on PC (not so much on console as far as I am aware), since there is some third party software available that can emulate the respective console layout when playing on PC, therefore giving PC CMDRs a great deal of freedom on how they want to play Elite. This is not even going into the VR aspect.

With this background information, this is where your quote here does not make sense. I have known numerous PvP CMDRs who use either PS4/XBOX controllers, HOTASes and some combination of whatever who kick absolute butt. Now the time it takes for someone to become proficient with their setup does vary, but I'm honestly not sure how you'd be even be able to compare what you are saying with the difference between mouse and keyboard users and HOTAS users. If this is your opinion, that is cool, but as a fact that is where it does not have legs.

I do want to end on a positive note however, if I ever get a VR headset, I totally want to play Elite with a HOTAS or controller to get that immersive experience.
 
I have to agree with the OP here wholeheartedly
I've been flying PvP for over 4 years now and flew double stick for the first two years.
After two years I had to switch to mouse because it was simply impossible to hit a target accurately with a stick, especially with weapons that require very accurate aiming and a high ToT.

Relative Mouse correctly adjusted acts as a kind of stabilizer when you fly in FA OFF.
Elite is more like a first person shooter than a space combat simulator then.
This is a sad but true fact and it's a pity that in other simulators mouse and stick behave almost the same. In star citizen this is for example very well solved.

I own a high quality flightstick of the brand VKB and would like to use it in Elite but unfortunately this is not possible with the current version of the game mechanic because as a stick pilot you have to perform every rotation with a counter rotation of the same strength and this is not necessary with relative mouse or the relative mouse supports you extremely with these corrections.
This is especially important for the Pitch and Jaw axes because they are mostly used for aiming.

I also hope that with upcoming game versions the big difference between mouse and stick and the disadvantage for stick players that comes with it will be improoved.

the following video shows very directly how easy it is to aim with relative mouse set up correctly in pixel ranges in FA OFF

Source: https://youtu.be/hpRLALj89QY

EDIT: added an idea how to improve Stick Rotation and generally FAOFF for sticks
- semi fa off mode for stick. meaning the translation is fa off the rotation is not.
to go in more detail the 6 thrusters (forward back, left right, up down) would be fa off - so you can use the full advantage of newtonien flying but the rotation (pitch, yaw and roll) is bound to fa on - means the aiming and the 3 rotation possibilities would be as stable as now in fa on
oh and this is meant as additional switchable option of course. the actuel control style for stick should be kept as well as they are.
 
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If you see the top, for example, 200 pvp players in this game, roughly 10% are using HOTAS or ar least joystick, and the rest are using the mouse + keyboard + relative mouse combo.
This simple percentages indicate is not balanced
As someone who actually talks to the top PvP players in the game - this number looks entirely made up and not accurate. So I'm wondering what your source is for it.
Relative Mouse correctly adjusted acts as a kind of stabilizer when you fly in FA OFF.
Elite is more like a first person shooter than a space combat simulator then.
I'm sorry to hear that you were unable to get good with a stick but this is simply not true. Relative mouse does not generate any additional effect on your rotational acceleration. You must still apply all oppositional force manually to stabilise and counteract any existing momentum.
 
@Barnard17 wrote
I'm sorry to hear that you were unable to get good with a stick but this is simply not true
typical from you that you go straigt in the defamation section

well the audience can check theirself if i got good with stick
i flew this with dual stick in full fa off (4 rails plus plasma)

but when i personally compare what i am able to do with a flightstick and i can do with relative mouse. relative mouse is overpowered.
at least stick should give a player the same performance and not be a disadvantage
 
@Barnard17 wrote

typical from you that you go straigt in the defamation section

well the audience can check theirself if i got good with stick
i flew this with dual stick in full fa off (4 rails plus plasma)

but when i personally compare what i am able to do with a flightstick and i can do with relative mouse. relative mouse is overpowered.
at least stick should give a player the same performance and not be a disadvantage
I had never seen that video!!! great skill on it!!!
 
@Barnard17 wrote

typical from you that you go straigt in the defamation section

well the audience can check theirself if i got good with stick
i flew this with dual stick in full fa off (4 rails plus plasma)

but when i personally compare what i am able to do with a flightstick and i can do with relative mouse. relative mouse is overpowered.
at least stick should give a player the same performance and not be a disadvantage
They are mechanically different tools that are equally available to everyone, depending on how much money they have to spare.
It seems really strange that you would optionally spend more money on a mechanically disadvantageous option with full understanding of how it works and then complain that you've bought something that is inferior.

Mouse and keyboard is the most financially accessible option to a PC player precisely because almost everyone running the game on a computer will have this set up already. But you're sad that you've spent all this money and it wasn't pay to win when you still have the same options available to yourself.

What an absurd conversation today. You are not required to play with any particular set up (unless you're on console, sorry guys). If you're better with mouse and keyboard then use mouse and keyboard. Instead of demanding mouse and keyboard be nerfed to match what you consider to be a mechanically inferior setup that you optionally spent more money on.
 
I play on XB with a controller and on PC with kb+relative-mouse

I have a hard time with fixed weapons on XB (i know i'm crap - you dont need to point that out), but on PC i'm getting along pretty nice with fixed hitscans (mainly rails and burst lasers) but also with slow speed weaps like cannons and plasmas.

I blame that on the increased precision offered by the kb+relative-mouse combo
The controller wins hands down at ergonomics, but (in my case) aiming sux badly.
 
I'm actually wondering why military jets aren't flown by M&K?!

Oh wait, gravity, inertia and centrifugal force might prove problematic when you're trying to type and hold the mouse to the pad... :D
 
Honestly, look at what relative mouse does - it applies a counter rotational correction so that when you stop moving your mouse, your ship stops spinning.
If centering the stick did the same thing, that's all that would really be needed to bring the two into line.

More like FE2's version of FA-off where your ship retained its directional momentum unless you applied thrust, but angular momentum wasn't preserved so you didn't go a-spinning.
Hey, this is incorrect.

Relative mouse centers your cursor's position, it does not counter rotation for you. Essentially, RM simulates the centering force mechanically present in joysticks. If you turn FA off and pitch up, even with relative mouse at 100%, letting go of the mouse will simply result in a continuation of a constant pitch, it will not slow or stop your pitch.
 
As noted, relative mouse doesn't apply any counter rotational correction, it just automatically centers the mouse.

What the game could use is the ability to apply sensitivity curves to non-mouse axes. The mouse gets a power curve setting, but if you want any sort of sensitivity slope on a stick, you need third party utilities, or an ultra-high-end product that has adjustable mechanical cams.

I summed up the rest of my thoughts on the stick vs. mouse debate in that other thread from a few months back: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/joystick-vs-kb-m-your-thoughts.537131/post-8421741

I'm actually wondering why military jets aren't flown by M&K?!

Oh wait, gravity, inertia and centrifugal force might prove problematic when you're trying to type and hold the mouse to the pad... :D
Probably at least as much a tradition/familiarity hold over from mechanical linkages as this...even UAVs are usually flown with HOTAS for this reason.
 
Legorobot is arguably the best rail sniper in the game currently. Definitely if not the best he's in the top three. He flies with a stick for rotations (possibly full HOTAS, I'm not sure off hand):
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NncVwyGkDqU

This NATO vs Prism wing fight from a couple of months ago represents the two strongest wings in the game for PvP.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SamhV70fvjE

Lesof (fight is from his perspective) - keyboard and mouse, no relative mouse at the time (now set to 10% relative mouse rate).
L'Intouchable - keyboard and mouse, relative mouse on one axis but not both (I believe pitch, would have to double check).
Qoryl - stick and keyboard.
Toruide - definitely stick rotations, unsure if stick and keyboard or HOTAS.
Jazod and Yamato - I believe both keyboard and mouse with relative on both axes.
Walkingdead - gamepad.
Captin Pelley - HOTAS.

So please explain to us further how the top players in the game use relative mouse because it gives such a significant and insurmountable advantage that only 10% of PvPers are using anything other than mouse and keyboard.
 
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