Relative mouse nerf or Hotas control needs a bit of love.

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@Morbad
It may well be that you find fine input subjectively easier with the mouse than a stick, but that's not from relative mouse auto-correcting past input, which it cannot do.
it calculates in a genius way how much counter rotation should be given that the ship does what the pilots points to with the mouse moves
and it does this on the fly constantly

try the following make a fa off flip and stabilice your ship when the 180 direction change was done aim at a star after the flip do it with relative mouse and then with stick and you will see a brutal difference

its a master piece of software engineering. basically it stores the other prior moves and calculates the trust needed to control the rotation for the actual move
and it does this all the time

thats the reason you can stop a rotation after a full flip in a second and its hard as hell to do the same with a stick. you will oversteer and need much more time to be stable again even if you are good.
 
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@Morbad


it calculates in a genius way how much counter rotation should be given that the ship does what the pilots points to with the mouse moves
and it does this on the fly constantly

try the following make a fa off flip and stabilice your ship when the 180 direction change was done aim at a star after the flip do it with relative mouse and then with stick and you will see a brutal difference


its a master piece of software engineering. basically it stores the other prior moves and calculates the trust needed to control the rotation for the actual move
and it does this all the time

thats the reason you can stop a rotation after a full flip in a second and its hard as hell to do the same with a stick. you will oversteer and need much more time to be stable again even if you are good.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sRS1dwCotw
 
@Morbad


it calculates in a genius way how much counter rotation should be given that the ship does what the pilots points to with the mouse moves
and it does this on the fly constantly

try the following make a fa off flip and stabilice your ship when the 180 direction change was done aim at a star after the flip do it with relative mouse and then with stick and you will see a brutal difference


its a master piece of software engineering. basically it stores the other prior moves and calculates the trust needed to control the rotation for the actual move
and it does this all the time

thats the reason you can stop a rotation after a full flip in a second and its hard as hell to do the same with a stick. you will oversteer and need much more time to be stable again even if you are good.
I'm unable to duplicate the phenomena you are describing.

My time to stop my rotation after an FA off boost flip is essentially the same with either input method, as well as with non-relative mouse.

There is no way it's storing prior input data. At most it recenters at an absolutely predictable rate, in accordance with the "relative mouse rate" setting, allowing easier estimation of the impulse that must be applied to counter rotation without overshoot. This is easily compensated for with a stick by deliberately undershooting maximum thrust to account for the time thrust will still be applied as you recenter the stick.
 
Nobody has talked about self-selection bias yet; most competitively-minded gamers will probably already have a good quality gaming mouse setup and a lot of practice with it in other games, while fewer people will own a good quality HOTAS or have years of muscle memory with it. Mouse input does have some measurable granular advantages, I think that's undeniable, but as many have stated it's by no means impossible to get good with a HOTAS, and using a HOTAS confers other advantages like unified analog positional thrust and the ability to toggle FA on and off without effectively losing rotational control. A decent number of the best players I've fought have used a stick, I'd say probably a higher number than should be expected proportional to the number of people who actually own one.

IMO a bigger issue is the default controls - Elite is a Zero G 6DOF game which, by default, pairs pitch with roll like aeroplanes and leaves yaw on its own less granular axis... despite roll not having a direct effect on yaw/vector as it would a plane. This risks adding "roll noise" to FA off aim without a deadzone, and pointlessly separates the two granular aim axes. If you're playing an FPS you wouldn't have strafe on mouse X and yaw on A and D. YMMV but it seems strange to see people claim "railguns are hard" when they're actively fighting their bindings all the while... even then people still manage to get plenty good enough with them to play competitively, railgun aim is more about timing than ToT anyway.
 
@Morbad
you need this settings


we had also a discussion about this in our discord another veteran found a better explanation then i where the unfair advantage is based.
The key advantage is probably that whatever nudge you give to the mouse it always result in the same amount of input being applied, so as long as you keep the nudge short enough, you don't really need to care about the duration aspect.
 
the deciding aspect here is that if you want to stop a rotation which was created by a stick - lets say - 45% pitch up for 0,5 seconds
you need exactly the 45% pitch down for also 0,5 seconds to stop this rotation

with relative mouse on 100% i just have to move my mouse up and down the duration and even the "way" of the mouse has not to be precise
 
Nobody has talked about self-selection bias yet; most competitively-minded gamers will probably already have a good quality gaming mouse setup and a lot of practice with it in other games, while fewer people will own a good quality HOTAS or have years of muscle memory with it. Mouse input does have some measurable granular advantages, I think that's undeniable, but as many have stated it's by no means impossible to get good with a HOTAS, and using a HOTAS confers other advantages like unified analog positional thrust and the ability to toggle FA on and off without effectively losing rotational control. A decent number of the best players I've fought have used a stick, I'd say probably a higher number than should be expected proportional to the number of people who actually own one.

IMO a bigger issue is the default controls - Elite is a Zero G 6DOF game which, by default, pairs pitch with roll like aeroplanes and leaves yaw on its own less granular axis... despite roll not having a direct effect on yaw/vector as it would a plane. This risks adding "roll noise" to FA off aim without a deadzone, and pointlessly separates the two granular aim axes. If you're playing an FPS you wouldn't have strafe on mouse X and yaw on A and D. YMMV but it seems strange to see people claim "railguns are hard" when they're actively fighting their bindings all the while... even then people still manage to get plenty good enough with them to play competitively, railgun aim is more about timing than ToT anyway.
There's a lot of factors as to why people fly with whatever input they use.
Some people only fly mouse and keyboard because they literally can't afford a HOTAS set up that would be worth the switch (considering the reputation a cheap HOTAS can have for breaking) but already own a mouse and keyboard.
Some people fly with a HOTAS because they prefer the immersion it gives them.
Some people fly with a HOTAS because they always have for flight sims so they're already good at that.
Some people with a HOTAS spent the extra money because they enjoy flying that way, so they fly that way a lot, which makes them very good at what they do.

HOTAS has significant advantage for people that want to toggle between FAOff and FAOn which is an awful experience with relative mouse.
HOSAS has unsurpassed precision for directional thrust positioning with full analogue swing which, ironically, also makes it bad for aiming PAs using boost vectoring because the swing requires so much movement for very fast input changes.

Which is why I'm finding it really hard to wrap my head around the OPs blind statistic, pulled out of seemingly nowhere, that of the 200 best PvP players in the game only 10% aren't using KB&M with relative on.

My experience is a much greater number of PvPers are flying with a stick than that gives credit to. I wouldn't want to make a claim as to numbers without doing research. So i'm still waiting for Fuego to front up a source on that.

As far as I can tell the whole premise of the thread boils down to two assertions:
1. That KB&M with relative on is demonstrably so OP that everyone is using it - with no receipts for where these numbers come from.
2. That relative mouse has an additional stabilising effect - which has been debunked, because it does not apply any additional output from the mouse other than that which you directly give it. Strangely enough the opposite is the truth - it is relative mouse off which continues generating a mouse output after the user has stopped applying any themselves.
 
the deciding aspect here is that if you want to stop a rotation which was created by a stick - lets say - 45% pitch up for 0,5 seconds
you need exactly the 45% pitch down for also 0,5 seconds to stop this rotation

with relative mouse on 100% i just have to move my mouse up and down the duration and even the "way" of the mouse has not to be precise
You can see in my video that the two are exactly the same in how much counter movement has to be applied.
 
the deciding aspect here is that if you want to stop a rotation which was created by a stick - lets say - 45% pitch up for 0,5 seconds
you need exactly the 45% pitch down for also 0,5 seconds to stop this rotation

with relative mouse on 100% i just have to move my mouse up and down the duration and even the "way" of the mouse has not to be precise
This is simply not accurate.
All existing momentum must be directly and equally countered.
The only mitigating factor on this is the hard cap applied to speed potential by the game, above which further output to generate acceleration has no effect as the speed cap is reached.

There are now three videos demonstrating this that were made today and you're still repeating the same misinformation.
 
well lets hope FDeV will take a look at it theirself. its very obvious if someone does the fa off flip test himself with the correct rel mouse settings.

the audience will decide theirself if they go with your videos or with the suggestions of the OP
 
I strongly dislike the negative solution of nerfing the mouse. If there are any positive suggestions to be made about improving the lot of stick and controller users, that would be great.
I've spent most of my time in this game using HOTAS. I've switched to mouse and thottle because I've not been very happy with my sticks' reliability. I'm not going to spend a good deal of money on a toy I use a couple a times a week and still needs fixing or even replacing every few mounths. If you're happy to, fine, just ask the devs to improve support for it rather than messing with other folk's mice.
Peace among nations
 
i would be also in favour to adapt the sticks.
the better solution for this problem is to make the stick as operational as the relative mouse is and not no nerfe the relative mouse flight assist.
 
Really, we are talking about "Mouse Nerfing"? This game is all about practice, with whatever tools that are made available to you. I fly dual stick FAO, and it was really difficult at first, like blew my mind difficult. Now, it's natural and I hit the majority of rail shots I take. With respect, honestly, if you keep going to the rebuy screen, stop blaming the keyboard, mouse, desk, person in chair and just pick the best tools for the job and practice. Everyone in this game started out being really crap at it and then made the decision to become skilled. There are plenty of HOTAS users who kick butt in this game - just go be one of those.
 
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Really, we are talking about "Mouse Nerfing"? This game is all about practice, with whatever tools that are made available to you. I fly dual stick FAO, and it was really difficult at first, like blew my mind difficult. Now, it's natural and I hit the majority of rail shots I take. With respect, honestly, if you keep going to the rebuy screen, stop blaming the keyboard, mouse, desk, person in chair and just pick the best tools for the job and practice. Everyone in this game started out being really poopoo at it and then made the decision to become skilled. There are plenty of HOTAS users who kick in this game - just go be one of those.
I did not write poopoo
 
@Morbad
you need this settings


we had also a discussion about this in our discord another veteran found a better explanation then i where the unfair advantage is based.
The key advantage is probably that whatever nudge you give to the mouse it always result in the same amount of input being applied, so as long as you keep the nudge short enough, you don't really need to care about the duration aspect.
Maxing out the input with a negligible return duration, then doing it again in the opposite direction, isn't the same as the function remembering prior inputs. Regardless, if it's not faster than what I can reliably do with a stick, or with other settings, it's not really an advantage.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A22xb-A0ndk

That's with a stick and yes it's repeatable. I still can't aim very well FA Off...

Personally, maxed out relative mouse rate makes it more tedious, overall, for me to control my CMDR's ships as it requires more rapid pulsing of inputs...I like a little bit of inertia.
 
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