Relative mouse nerf or Hotas control needs a bit of love.

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Hi folks,

I have been playing elite dangerous for about 4 and a half years and making pvp for the last 2 years.

If you see the top, for example, 200 pvp players in this game, roughly 10% are using HOTAS or ar least joystick, and the rest are using the mouse + keyboard + relative mouse combo.
This simple percentages indicate is not balanced

Everybody who makes pvp in this game knows HOTAS users has to practice much more to be acurate in shooting and even in FA off control than a mouse and keyboard user, and this is not an exageration, it is a fact, so again, is not balanced.

Maybe the FDEV team haven´t tested enough because I think If they do it they would realize easily.

So what I am asking from from frontier is to balance these mechanics, maybe nerfing the relative mouse efect to make the control and aiming with mouse a bit more difficult or maybe introducing some mechanic that make control and aiming a bit easier for HOTAS users.

Anyone who thinks I am not right, can see on internet on thousand videos, how easy is to hit with long range railguns using keyboard and mouse, and on the other hand with HOTAS is more difficult.

Or also can test it flying in FA off with mouse and keyboard, and then try the same with a HOTAS.

Regards.
Yes, no doubt the relative mouse is too much benefit in the control of the ship, I think at this time the precision with the mouse is very precise because of the relative mouse.

At times this seems more like a space shutter mounted on ships rather than a game of flying ships.

No debería haber beneficios de unos controles sobre los otros

There should be no benefit of one control over the other. No one would expect to play a car game with a mouse and have a benefit over players who play with a steering wheel.

I would simply eliminate the relative mouse, because it offers a disproportionate improvement over other analog devices, joysticks or gamepads do not offer this advantage and I think it should be eliminated.
 
Yes, no doubt the relative mouse is too much benefit in the control of the ship, I think at this time the precision with the mouse is very precise because of the relative mouse.

At times this seems more like a space shutter mounted on ships rather than a game of flying ships.

No debería haber beneficios de unos controles sobre los otros

There should be no benefit of one control over the other. No one would expect to play a car game with a mouse and have a benefit over players who play with a steering wheel.

I would simply eliminate the relative mouse, because it offers a disproportionate improvement over other analog devices, joysticks or gamepads do not offer this advantage and I think it should be eliminated.
You have trouble aiming with your Joystick?
 
The massive sense of entitlement of some in the PvP community never ceases to amaze me.

MOST PEOPLE don't PvP.

MOST PEOPLE use keyboard-and-mouse (probably)

Yet some are suggesting that MOST PEOPLE should be denied access to their control method, or denied access to FA-Off with it, or have it nerfed in some other way, just because a small minority of players are dissatisfied with their own choice of controller?

GET OVER YOURSELVES. That is never going to happen!!!
 
Balancing different control types is something I've been thinking about recently, considering several approaches, but honestly all the ideas I've came up with have their cons. I'm using a HOTAs and mostly play PvE, though I've participated in some organic and training fights, and an organized PvP training.

So, you can stop the mouse at an (almost) instant, which stops any input. Releasing pressure on deflected joystick means it has to return to the center, and it will always take some time, depending on the centering method, and can even wobble if you literally just release the stick. So there are some drawbacks, but "fixing" - or balancing it - isn't that easy either.

Some approaches I've thought about include (yes, all have MAJOR drawbacks):

1) Flight simulator approach: some flight sims have that you simply can't use mouse to control aircraft at all, or it's not efficient and wonky, or servers can enforce usage of a controller. This would alienate and split playerbase.

2) Balancing approach: increase the micro-gimballing effect of fixed weapons. Enough to not need shooter-like pixel precision, but still need to manually aim at a target. This "balancing" could actually break the balance.

3) FPS/crossplay-style approach: ability to select what control types you want to instance with with. This literally breaks any sane way to instance and would cause problems with multiple simultaneous inputs (you can easily have controls mapped to a controller AND mouse+keyboard at the same time)

None of these seems very plausible, do they? What the game really needs is a complete rework/balancing on instancing, different career archetypes, crime & punishment etc. Even as a PvE player I'd be all for a single, big, Open-only universe, but that would also need rework on system security where High-sec systems are actually safe, but also and incentive to actually fight players in other ways than ganking and group wing fights.
 
@Minamir
i would have the following idea

just compute the positive moves of the stick and implement something similar then relative mouse for stick inputs and make it as an seperate option to activate
 
How is this still going on. If you're not good with your preferred control method, either change it or get better with it - if others can do it, so can you; practice instead of complaining?

I do agree that sensitivity and curves could be implemented in-game. Other than that, talks of nerfing are just silly. I play on a controller and the thumbstick has the disadvantages of both imprecise movement and low travel distance but there are players better than me who are able to make it work, and I'll keep proudly eating rebuys while gitting gud instead of asking everyone else to play the way I choose to.
 
Is the same both are analog axis
Gamepad analog sticks and triggers typically have much shorter throws and larger dead zones, which makes them less accurate. They also have far fewer buttons than a decent HOTAS or keyboard.

Some people still do quite well with them, but they are objectively the least functional of the common options.

Anyway, curves would help gamepad users the same way.
 
@Minamir
i would have the following idea

just compute the positive moves of the stick and implement something similar then relative mouse for stick inputs and make it as an seperate option to activate
Okay but you're gonna have to code a complete new module for the control inputs of the game for that to be able to happen. Because it's not what happens now with relative mouse.

There are two advantages of relative mouse over a stick:
1. Granularity and precision of control - you can move a mouse with your finger tips, you move a stick with your arm.
2. Relative mouse rate can be set to immediately neutralise acceleration output, whereas a stick must first return to centre and move from there. Not a big deal if you're nudging your stick but can be an extensive movement if you have your stick at full lock.

That's it. File also under - mechanical differences between a stick and a mouse.

If you wanted to port relative mouse functionality onto a stick it would work like this:
When you stop moving the stick it auto-calibrates a centre point to that new stick position. Any physical movement from that point afterwards is in that direction, rather than fixed output around the original fixed central calibrated point of the upright stick (hurr durr). This would make it exceptionally difficult to have a neutral output align with a physically centred stick.

A better solution for achieving a similar goal would be a centre output button so that you can quickly tap it when you lock movement in one direction, so that movement in the next direction is a new directional output rather than a quietening of already existing output. (good luck learning the muscle memory for this)

There is none of this "computing old movements to automatically stabilise the ship" mumbo jump happening in relative mouse - which you would understand if you watched my video. Seeing as I demonstrate relative mouse off, on at a low %, on at a middle % and on at 100% in both FAOff and FAOn.

Or just continue with your fingers in your ears refusing to listen because you've been PvPing since 2016 so of course you know better than anyone - even without any documented proof of your claims and in the face of evidence otherwise.
 
If you wanted to port relative mouse functionality onto a stick it would work like this:
When you stop moving the stick it auto-calibrates a centre point to that new stick position. Any physical movement from that point afterwards is in that direction, rather than fixed output around the original fixed central calibrated point of the upright stick (hurr durr). This would make it exceptionally difficult to have a neutral output align with a physically centred stick.
I tried this by having my stick emulate a mouse and then trying to use non-relative mouse in game. It was essentially impossible to control, at least with the amount of effort I was willing to put into it.

Relative mouse just turned it back into a normal stick, more or less.

Edit: corrected.

Edit 2: Found the video...
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmDLvNzAktY

I turn relative mouse on near the end, around 6:40. Was a bit janky cause I had mangled the settings, but with a zero dead zone, zero power, and maxed decay, it's almost indistinguishable from using the stick normally.
 
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Ozric

Volunteer Moderator
Right this is now the third time I've had to come into this thread today.

Knock of the personal slants and discuss the post and not the poster. If you can't do this then you will be taking a break from this thread.
 
I feel FDev should retain relative mouse for accessibility, making the game available to every input style and experience level.

I'd love to see a 'hybrid' FA-on/FA-off added: FA-OFF for translational thrust (up/down/left/right/fwd/back), but FA-ON for rotation (pitch/roll/yaw). I have no experience in PvP, but I would LOVE to try this against Thargoid Interceptors.
 
I tried this by having my stick emulate a mouse and then trying to use non-relative mouse in game. It was essentially impossible to control, at least with the amount of effort I was willing to put into it.

Relative mouse just turned it back into a normal stick, more or less.

Edit: corrected.

Edit 2: Found the video...
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmDLvNzAktY

I turn relative mouse on near the end, around 6:40. Was a bit janky cause I had mangled the settings, but with a zero dead zone, zero power, and maxed decay, it's almost indistinguishable from using the stick normally.
If you stuck someone in VR with this set up you could see how long it takes them to vomit o_O
 
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