General Remove private Lobby and single Player

[DemiserofD]

A better crime and punishment system is retroactive

Not necessarily. An idea I've long had is for High Security stations to have Emergency Shield Generators for nearby ships. Basically, anything within the no-fire zone would get an additional shield projected on top of any normal shield or hull they have. This would effectively and preemptively prohibit behavior like suiciding into someone to give them a bounty.

A second way it could be preemptive is by changing how the police respond to interdiction. If the countdown to the arrival of police started at the START of the interdiction minigame, then if a player is able to fight the interdiction for a reasonable length of time, the police will drop in at exactly the same time as the players. Then just give the police the same technology to generate shields on non-hostile players.

A third way could be just arriving at the hostile player's location and interdicting them more often if they have a bounty. It should be significantly difficult to get through a high-sec system in supercruise with a hostile relationship/bounty; I'm envisioning players dodging police and dropping into a ring to lose attention from the cops, then waiting for the right moment to make their sprint to their ultimate destination. This is also good for the criminal, as it allows for greater rewards for 'legitimate' criminal behavior.

But regardless, a good C&P system extends far beyond just punishing players for crimes after the fact. A good one works to prevent them from happening in the first place.

Edit: Good Morning!

 

[Rubbernuke]

The PvP in Powerplay, as implemented, is consensual. Doubly so - as one needs to pledge then also choose to play in Open.

Sandro was suggesting that Powerplay should go all in with Open in flash topic one- thats what the context was.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Sandro was suggesting that Powerplay should go all in with Open in flash topic one- thats what the context was.

He certainly suggested it might, as a possible result of an investigation that was clearly stated not to be a fait accompli. He then walked it back to the Open bonus proposal in Flash Topic thread 2 - that was soundly rejected by those who wanted it all (and, on reflection, got nothing). Then went on to say later in the last stream that it was the "last thing on our minds".

 

[Rubbernuke]

Not necessarily. An idea I've long had is for High Security stations to have Emergency Shield Generators for nearby ships. Basically, anything within the no-fire zone would get an additional shield projected on top of any normal shield or hull they have. This would effectively and preemptively prohibit behavior like suiciding into someone to give them a bounty.

A second way it could be preemptive is by changing how the police respond to interdiction. If the countdown to the arrival of police started at the START of the interdiction minigame, then if a player is able to fight the interdiction for a reasonable length of time, the police will drop in at exactly the same time as the players. Then just give the police the same technology to generate shields on non-hostile players.

A third way could be just arriving at the hostile player's location and interdicting them more often if they have a bounty. It should be significantly difficult to get through a high-sec system in supercruise with a hostile relationship/bounty; I'm envisioning players dodging police and dropping into a ring to lose attention from the cops, then waiting for the right moment to make their sprint to their ultimate destination. This is also good for the criminal, as it allows for greater rewards for 'legitimate' criminal behavior.

But regardless, a good C&P system extends far beyond just punishing players for crimes after the fact. A good one works to prevent them from happening in the first place.

A better C+P is one the criminal can't anticipate.

For example, timers should be based on proximity of crime to the nearest station. So for example in a deep space zone it takes longer to get help than if you are close to the main starport. Beyond 10 notoriety ATR should spawn each time you are scanned.

Both of these expand the use of skill and judgement to use and avoid- attackers cannot really know the response time of security beyond trying to interdict away from a station just as a potential victim can try and get as close to a station to get help faster. High notoriety players need to become paranoid about scans and avoid crowded places, because ATR will drop in. Bear in mind ATR drop with guns pre drawn and pre targetted, so they know instantly where you are and shoot instantly. It also means you can't count on shields (because ATR will take them away in six shots or less) and that you have to be prepared to run at any time.

 

[Rubbernuke]

He certainly suggested it might, as a possible result of an investigation that was clearly stated not to be a fait accompli. He then walked it back to the Open bonus proposal in Flash Topic thread 2 - that was soundly rejected by those who wanted it all (and, on reflection, got nothing).

He did not walk back, he suggested something different to gain more opinion on a different approach. Weighting has been suggested twice, and was suggested a few years before Flash Topic 1 was.

 

[Robert Maynard]

He did not walk back, he suggested something different to gain more opinion on a different approach. Weighting has been suggested twice, and was suggested a few years before Flash Topic 1 was.

Different opinions of the same event - it certainly was the second airing of an Open play bonus proposal, after the "hand grenade" of March'16.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Different opinions of the same event - it certainly was the second airing of an Open play bonus proposal, after the "hand grenade" of March'16.

The chronology was weighted (around the same time collapse was talked about in the old forum), open (in a non circulated dopcument), flash 1 topic open and flash topic 2 weighted.

 

[DemiserofD]

A better C+P is one the criminal can't anticipate.

While I appreciate what you're talking about, I don't think that's the most important thing about C&P. At the most basic level, criminals should expect that if they commit a crime in a high-sec system, they will face immediate and massive consequences. Stuff that happens after that is secondary.

Here's the most basic fact; unless players can play in High-Sec with confidence in their safety, they won't do it. They'll play in Solo or PGs instead. If you want to draw these players into Open, it is critical that they know where they are safe and where they are not.

 

[Robert Maynard]

The chronology was weighted (around the same time collapse was talked about in the old forum), open (in a non circulated dopcument), flash 1 topic open and flash topic 2 weighted.

No dispute about that (even if one was in a "secret" document).

 

[Rubbernuke]

No dispute about that (even if one was in a "secret" document).

It was circulated on the dev facing discord and was a total rewrite.

 

[angusmadmac1]

Make it harder for Notoriety . Even at 10 you dont really have to change your gameplay .
Make the crime and punishment harder . It's the aggressor who should have to pay all that the victim has lost ( unless it's PP or you've been naughty ). But if you don't fit basic defenses you don't get a rebuy . ( No shieldless traders )
Powerplay once pledged you can't dock at an hostile station the security won't help you in fact they will help blow you up . You get better rates in friendly stations .

 

[Rubbernuke]

While I appreciate what you're talking about, I don't think that's the most important thing about C&P. At the most basic level, criminals should expect that if they commit a crime in a high-sec system, they will face immediate and massive consequences. Stuff that happens after that is secondary.

Here's the most basic fact; unless players can play in High-Sec with confidence in their safety, they won't do it. They'll play in Solo or PGs instead. If you want to draw these players into Open, it is critical that they know where they are safe and where they are not.

As a hardened murder BGS guy I know what would make that life hard.

High sec is a poor example because police assistance is almost immediate, and that ATR is also invoked much sooner. The flaw is that ATR are reset on HW, so you can HW, jump back and repeat the loop. You are never hassled in SC, and can pick your targets at will.

I can quite happily kill anyone in high sec, the reason being is I know exactly when the police will turn up. By counting my kills I can know each wave, what they will fly, when they will turn up etc. ATR tell you when they are coming, and operate to simple rules as well.

Now, take away that regularity and suddenly I can't plan ahead as far. Plug the gaps in SC and the HW flaw and things become interesting.

 

[Robert Maynard]

If ATR is SuperPower affiliated, they should reasonably only lose high wake "scent" if the player jumps to a system of medium or high security controlled by a Faction of an opposing SuperPower - and pick up the scent immediately on the player's return to a one of "their" systems with a Nav Beacon (which would "inform" on all arrivals into the system).

 

[HRDiagram]

Make it harder for Notoriety . Even at 10 you dont really have to change your gameplay .

Here's a silly suggestion about harsh punishments for Notoriety (but still not as outlandish as removing Solo and PG altogether): if you are Notorious and get destroyed, you have no access to any ships, or are disconnected from the game, for a number of hours equal to your Notoriety. Basically, real time detention, with no bail.
You've wasted someone else's play time, fair enough, but if you're caught, it's your turn to serve and have your time wasted.

Doesn't prevent PvP, and skilled pilots would not be afraid of it, but it can still make people think twice before committing criminal acts, especially clueless meta-gankers.

 

[Rubbernuke]

If ATR is SuperPower affiliated, they should reasonably only lose high wake "scent" if the player jumps to a system of medium or high security controlled by a Faction of an opposing SuperPower - and pick up the scent immediately on the player's return to a one of "their" systems with a Nav Beacon (which would "inform" on all arrivals into the system).

ATR should be persistent. The only time they are is with fleet carriers where they wait for you.

Its why I'd love ATR to pop in as they do with C+P if someone scans you and thus identifies you again. This makes being a high notoriety criminal hard as you have to be perfect to avoid having them ruin your day.

All we need now is criminal gameplay to reward being a criminal

 

[Ettanin]

Here's a silly suggestion about harsh punishments for Notoriety (but still not as outlandish as removing Solo and PG altogether): if you are Notorious and get destroyed, you have no access to any ships, or are disconnected from the game, for a number of hours equal to your Notoriety. Basically, real time detention, with no bail.
You've wasted someone else's play time, fair enough, but if you're caught, it's your turn to serve and have your time wasted.

Doesn't prevent PvP, and skilled pilots would not be afraid of it, but it can still make people think twice before committing criminal acts, especially clueless meta-gankers.

Not going to happen as that would effectively mean a temporary game ban for using a legitimate game mechanic.

 

[HRDiagram]

Not going to happen as that would effectively mean a temporary game ban for using a legitimate game mechanic.

Good point.

Being able to play, but with temporarily limited access to ships would not constitute a ban, though.
Courtesy Sidewinder (plus Apex for those with EDO).

Alternatively: inability to rebuy some modules (say insurers would not cover some equipent - ethical insurers, yeah, right... ), or loss/degradation of random engineering mods.

 

[DemiserofD]

Good point.

Being able to play, but with temporarily limited access to ships would not constitute a ban, though.
Courtesy Sidewinder (plus Apex for those with EDO).

Alternatively: inability to rebuy some modules (say insurers would not cover some equipent - ethical insurers, yeah, right... ), or loss/degradation of random engineering mods.

Here's a silly suggestion about harsh punishments for Notoriety (but still not as outlandish as removing Solo and PG altogether): if you are Notorious and get destroyed, you have no access to any ships, or are disconnected from the game, for a number of hours equal to your Notoriety. Basically, real time detention, with no bail.
You've wasted someone else's play time, fair enough, but if you're caught, it's your turn to serve and have your time wasted.

Doesn't prevent PvP, and skilled pilots would not be afraid of it, but it can still make people think twice before committing criminal acts, especially clueless meta-gankers.

If you really want to keep players away for a while, temporary permit locks are the most straightforward way to do it. But really, it shouldn't be necessary. That would only be a last resort if actual gameplay methods are for some reason completely impossible.

If you're at Notoriety 10(or its equivalent in a new system), it should be approximately like being at 5 stars in GTA. It's REALLY hard to kill another player that's running away when you've got tanks and fighter jets and hundreds of soldiers chasing after you. And a high-sec system should be like a military base.

As a hardened murder BGS guy I know what would make that life hard.

High sec is a poor example because police assistance is almost immediate, and that ATR is also invoked much sooner. The flaw is that ATR are reset on HW, so you can HW, jump back and repeat the loop. You are never hassled in SC, and can pick your targets at will.

I can quite happily kill anyone in high sec, the reason being is I know exactly when the police will turn up. By counting my kills I can know each wave, what they will fly, when they will turn up etc. ATR tell you when they are coming, and operate to simple rules as well.

Now, take away that regularity and suddenly I can't plan ahead as far. Plug the gaps in SC and the HW flaw and things become interesting.

I agree, this is an issue. This is why I think it would be a good idea to tie crimes to REP. Killing another player should be a big hit to your REP, and if you're hostile with a faction, ATR should spawn immediately and you shouldn't be able to pay off your bounty with them(even at a broker); you should need to increase your rep back up to unfriendly or neutral, first, either via stations where they're a sub-faction, or via search and rescue POIs.

Do that and Notoriety wouldn't even really be necessary anymore.

 

[Chrystoph]

“Must be yearning deep in human heart to stop other people from doing as they please.” ― Robert A. Heinlein, The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress, 1966

 

[Gut]

You can remove Private Lobby and Single Player modes..........ONLY.........If you remove PVP too =-P