Renovated normal space navigation, is needed

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
But, i strongly beleave breaking speed after boosting is a mistake. And there r way around it.

Frontier don't seem to share that opinion.

.... you should search for older threads on Newtonian Flight, particularly those where Mike Evans participated. They make for interesting reading.
 
Haven't played any of the previous elite dangerous games, so, i don't know if they had implemented any sort of flight assist, and how did that work like.

...

But elite dangerous as it stands today. It's normal space navigation, has a long way to go before accually beinc a space simulator.

Flight assist didn't exist because the flight models were indeed full on newtonian physics based. That means making our current FA-Off implementation look like three year olds steering some dodgems.

I am not sure if the download is easily obtained these days but have a go if you can. Just trust me. Once you play a mode with what is effectively permanent hardcore FA-Off you'll realise why ED works better as a game moving away from realism.

Actually if anyone knows of legit download resources for FE II and FFE feel free to post 'em.
 
Flight assist didn't exist because the flight models were indeed full on newtonian physics based. That means making our current FA-Off implementation look like three year olds steering some dodgems.

I am not sure if the download is easily obtained these days but have a go if you can. Just trust me. Once you play a mode with what is effectively permanent hardcore FA-Off you'll realise why ED works better as a game moving away from realism.

Actually if anyone knows of legit download resources for FE II and FFE feel free to post 'em.

I don't want full newtonian physics, by now i am convinced that wouldn't work so well, but breaking speed after boosting just feels wrong... I am just going to copy-paste one of my earlier replies, i hope u don't mind.

"PASTE"

Imagine this.
The same game we have today, same top speeds for all ships, but, instead of flying forwards faster than up, down, left, right and backwards. ceep the same speed to all directions, regardless of flight assist. But, with different acceleration rate, depending on the ship's shape.
An asp, for example, drifting left or, right, in lower aceeleration rate than a dimondback, becasuse it has less space to fit thrusters at her port and starboard.
With a button to ingage engines, and accelerate forwards, and an other button, or, by double tabbing the engine button to get the same rapid forward boost we get now, while maintainng speed to all occations. And an extra feature for rapid deceleration, like space breaks, by either pushing a dedicated key, or, by thruttling all the way back. and all that, concuming power from the capacitor.
I could go in to more details, if u want to ask me any questions.


...But, that is never going to happen, is it?
 
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I don't want full newtonian physics, by now i am convinced that wouldn't work so well, but breaking speed after boosting just feels wrong... I am just going to copy-paste one of my earlier replies, i hope u don't mind.

"PASTE"

Imagine this.
The same game we have today, same top speeds for all ships, but, instead of flying forwards faster than up, down, left, right and backwards. ceep the same speed to all directions, regardless of flight assist. But, with different acceleration rate, depending on the ship's shape.
An asp, for example, drifting left or, right, in lower aceeleration rate than a dimondback, becasuse it has less space to fit thrusters at her port and starboard.
With a button to ingage engines, and accelerate forwards, and an other button, or, by double tabbing the engine button to get the same rapid forward boost we get now, while maintainng speed to all occations. And an extra feature for rapid deceleration, like space breaks, by either pushing a dedicated key, or, by thruttling all the way back. and all that, concuming power from the capacitor.
I could go in to more details, if u want to ask me any questions.


...But, that is never going to happen, is it?

I doubt it given I am not sure what you're getting at, but it looks messy as hell already.

Ships already have different acceleration profiles. Unless your T9 can vertically thrust as effectively as your iCourier all of a sudden?

So I can't even tell what you're trying to change other than complaining about boosting being temporary and top speed being limited by FA On. Notably this only occurs across a single axis: with FA On, you can still reach top speed without going forward using two axis of translation.

But here's some real food for thought...what if - shock, horror; gasps in the audience! - the flight model isn't actually flawed in this respect? What if we sit down to think about what we complain about before we complain about it?
 
Actually if anyone knows of legit download resources for FE II and FFE feel free to post 'em.

Not sure about legit, but a quick Google of "Frontier Elite II Download" will land you many places to "acquire" the game. :D
It's a bit of a grey area, because no where sells it...

Does it count as piracy, if one owns the original DOS big box edition and floppy disk, but downloads it anyway, because they no longer own a floppy drive?

I won't post links, in case it's against the forum rules. :D

@Bad Move
I-War is a great game, but extremely dated, and not likely to run particularly well on a modern system.
However, I-War II Edge Of Chaos is equally as good, if somewhat simplified compared to the original, and is definitely worth a go. :)

Quad Antimatter PPCs FTW!

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead
 
Actually, I just posted an idea to a different Suggestion thread. How about this?

Press and hold the boost button. While the button is depressed, after the boost is finished Flight Assist will not use the forward thrusters to slow your speed and whenever the power capacitor has recharged, another boost will be automatically triggered. When you release the boost button, the retros will fire as usual, until your speed matches the throttle setting.

Not only does this avoid any "negatives" (since you are not exceeding normal operation limits), but your ship should cool down slightly faster, since the retro-thrusters are not firing.
 
I remember one of the early versions of elite in the 90s, the super cruise then was called something else, and it took 10s of minutes to get to speed, then just as long to slow down.

I would start slowing down with reverse thrusters 40 mins before arriving next the planet or station. I also remember combat was impossible due the direction your ship was going in...

I guess this is why we cannot have to realistic physics, they did try once years ago. I think they got slated back then
 
I doubt it given I am not sure what you're getting at, but it looks messy as hell already.

Ships already have different acceleration profiles. Unless your T9 can vertically thrust as effectively as your iCourier all of a sudden?

So I can't even tell what you're trying to change other than complaining about boosting being temporary and top speed being limited by FA On. Notably this only occurs across a single axis: with FA On, you can still reach top speed without going forward using two axis of translation.

But here's some real food for thought...what if - shock, horror; gasps in the audience! - the flight model isn't actually flawed in this respect? What if we sit down to think about what we complain about before we complain about it?

Boost speed being temporary, is my only complain.
Not sure what u mean by top speed being limited by fa on. Top speed is limited with fa off too.
Not sure what u mean by "Notably this only occurs across a single axis: with FA On, you can still reach top speed without going forward using two axis of translation." at all.
But, here is some more food for thought. What if, dragging back to cruising speed after boosting, is gust poor game mechanic? I am not suggesting pure newtonian physics.
Of what i understand, maintaining boost speed, with fa off, is creating some gameplay issues, when it comes to pvp, and u still get to slow back down with fa on.
I think the title i chose for this thread is better discribing the whole issue than i first thought. Normal space navigation needs renovation. Its not enough to change one little thing, like maintaining boost speed with fa off and leave everything else as it is now, because that little thing would unbalance everything.
So, if it was up to me, i would change everything, ecxept the top speed of every ship.
But.
U r right, i did mess it up in my head a little bit. Instead of focusing to find a soloution to suggest for fixing what i beleave is a big let down for this game, i came up with a whole new philosofy of how normal space navigation sould b like. So, here is a more simplyfied version of what i beleave sould change.
One new feature, let's call it engine burn, where when u press the same key u have bound to engine boost, instead of boosting, like ur ship does today, it gradually accelerate, using power from the capacitor, untill it reaches top speed, or, the capacitor runs out of power, an other feature, let's call it new engine boost. possibly activated when double tabbing the engine key, depleting any power u may have in the capacitor, untill u either reach top speed. or, run out of power. And maintaining top speed to both accounts. And then, one last new hypothetical feature, let's call it space breaks, which when activated, uses power from the capacitor, to rapidly decelerate the ship, untill it comes to a full halt, or, run out of power.
But, then i feared the ship would loose manueverability, so, i thought, some extra thrust for vertical and lateral movement, would help consepate that... And that is where i got complicated.
Assuming u would still get the same boost to angular momentum when u burn the engines with the one u get now when u hit engine boost, or, a little less, and as much angular boost as u get today, when boosting with the new booster, there is no need to mess with rolling/pitching/yawning rates.

...Basically, i am allready looking for a new game, allthough i am not planning to uninstall ed, yet.
 
I remember one of the early versions of elite in the 90s, the super cruise then was called something else, and it took 10s of minutes to get to speed, then just as long to slow down.

I would start slowing down with reverse thrusters 40 mins before arriving next the planet or station. I also remember combat was impossible due the direction your ship was going in...

I guess this is why we cannot have to realistic physics, they did try once years ago. I think they got slated back then


Yep... full scale newtonian physics, and dog fighting in the vacum of space don't mix. But, dragging back to cruising speed every single time u boost, sucks.
 
Actually, I just posted an idea to a different Suggestion thread. How about this?

Press and hold the boost button. While the button is depressed, after the boost is finished Flight Assist will not use the forward thrusters to slow your speed and whenever the power capacitor has recharged, another boost will be automatically triggered. When you release the boost button, the retros will fire as usual, until your speed matches the throttle setting.

Not only does this avoid any "negatives" (since you are not exceeding normal operation limits), but your ship should cool down slightly faster, since the retro-thrusters are not firing.

Why not ceeping the speed limits we have now, and remove drag all together?
 
Not sure about legit, but a quick Google of "Frontier Elite II Download" will land you many places to "acquire" the game. :D
It's a bit of a grey area, because no where sells it...

Does it count as piracy, if one owns the original DOS big box edition and floppy disk, but downloads it anyway, because they no longer own a floppy drive?

I won't post links, in case it's against the forum rules. :D

@Bad Move
I-War is a great game, but extremely dated, and not likely to run particularly well on a modern system.
However, I-War II Edge Of Chaos is equally as good, if somewhat simplified compared to the original, and is definitely worth a go. :)

Quad Antimatter PPCs FTW!

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead


Maybe i will give it a shot. Thnx for the suggestion.
 
I watched a couple of vids on you tube with the old elite games... If graphycs were as good, as the ones we have now, i think i would buy that game.
 
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