Returning to EDO, but Please Frontier...

MoodBear · Nov 9, 2021

I quit playing ED because even though EDO ran fine on my too expensive latest hardware PC, I fell in love with ED because of VR, something that hooked me line and sinker. I loved my time with EDH. So EDO shocked me with its silly gray 2D screen for VR on foot. A complete immersion killer. I ignored, loved ED, so played anyway, but it just kept bugging me that I just quit one day about 3-4 months ago.

But the ED itch was still there and after trying other titles (NMS and SC), well, even EDO, warts and all, still delivers where the others do not, for what I am looking for at least. So I had to come back to get the fix I need that only ED was delivering. I left at patch 4, but now patch 8 is out. Still the VR chopped at the knees foot support is in place, so I'll just avoid the on foot except for exploration.

I have to admit things are looking better over all, and Frontier seems to be getting its act together. I've heard changes in management has happened and as I kept tabs on each patch release, there seems to be a lot more openness with communication and letting the community know more about development plans/progress. This is very positive and helped pull me back to the ED universe I missed so much. I'm starting to have some hope on EDO's future now.

Please Frontier, reconsider the VR decision made for EDO space legs. As performance gets "fixed" and consoles finally supported, please remove the shackles on VR. ED was a flagship for VR that has now been handicapped by a decision that leaves EDO looking rushed and mediocre at best, for VR players anyway.

Okay, back to playing EDO, even with the unsatisfactory VR foot support. It is still the best around. For me anyway. Keep those wonderful patches coming and thanks for the great work already done. Your moving in the right direction now.

Terry Daniels · Nov 9, 2021

I'd be happy if the switch to legs let you switch full screen to monitor but they can't even do that (X Rebirth <2017> if you took your HMD off it would change to full screen on the monitor automatically), and there was a hacky VR mode (using the external camera) that (I believe) they fixed so it no longer worked - tho' it shows why they didn't include VR Legs - the performance tanked in stations and settlements to nausea inducing frame rates.

I reckon if a VR programmer offered to go to Fdev offices for a few days to implement it for free we might get it (after performance was fixed), otherwise I wouldn't hold my breath.

TSINI · Nov 9, 2021

it's weird because it basically works on my tobii eyetracker, I move around and aim with the controller, but if my eyetracker is enabled I can turn my head inside my helmet, (granted I don't personally like it much so I centre it when I disembark) but clearly it works, so why don't they do some kind of limited movement for VR, where it won't let you turn your head fully to the side, because your helmet is fixed forwards or some other in-universe excuse.

Phoenix_Dfire · Nov 9, 2021

Terry Daniels said:
I reckon if a VR programmer offered to go to Fdev offices for a few days to implement it for free we might get it (after performance was fixed), otherwise I wouldn't hold my breath.

Problem is that putting on-foot VR in is 'not a few days' work. I don't think the community realises how big a job it would be. FDev were lucky because creating a sit down VR experience is easier (See flight simulators, F1 Simulators, The excellent Star Trek : Bridge Crew) to put in. The motion sickness problem has to be addressed when on foot (i.e. walking or teleporting) and in addition to redesigning all the interfaces, item interactions and how ydo ou handle Multi-player VR in a conflict zone when mixed with No-VR players?

No it's not a few days work. Look at how many Devs were needed to do Half life Alyx, same size team as Odyssey and it took them twice as long as Odyssey took! Don't get me wrong, I would love to see on-foot VR in Odyssey, but being realistic, the amount of work involved would have to be a paid for DLC (like Skyrim VR was).

AncientGael · Nov 9, 2021

Yeah there is no way i could stomach the on foot implementation of VR in EDO. There really isn't anything else in the genre, but if you side step into flight sims like DCS you might get that itch scratched. NMS never appealed to me, everything i hear is that it's a great game, i just can't get by the art style, it's a personal thing. As for the supposed exodus to SC, that's like jumping out of the fire into the frying pan. Sure it has ship interiors (massively important to me, and the reason it has players give it nearly half a billion dollars, FDev, you bewilder me), but that's all it has. I think their vision is better than FDev's, it's more ambitious, it's just totally unrealistic and unachievable. They get away with their game being a dumpster fire with the alpha tag, when it is a released play now title. EDO is a rounded out game, perhaps FDev should have stuck a meaningless alpha tag on it to protect it from due criticism.

Edit to add; SC does not have VR, even though they sold their game from the get go to be a VR title.

Muzz UK · Nov 9, 2021

As much as I love whacking out VR to play Elite occasionally I don't feel that having no VR on foot has ruined the game. It's a shame but the space and exploration aspects in VR are still mind blowing. Odyssey on foot is still only an optional part of the game where as space flight and travel are mandatory. I'm more excited by shooting Goids on foot and the expansion of Odyssey content more than anything.

Terry Daniels · Nov 9, 2021

Phoenix_Dfire said:
I don't think the community realises how big a job it would be.

I was thinking bare bones 3D head look

Phoenix_Dfire said:
The motion sickness problem has to be addressed when on foot (i.e. walking or teleporting)

solution in that very sentence

Phoenix_Dfire said:
how ydo ou handle Multi-player VR in a conflict zone when mixed with No-VR players?

VR players would still be stuck with mouse, controller or HOTAS (and probably sitting down), so no more advantage than someone playing with a head or eye tracker (or, if its possible, ensure VR players are only instanced with other VR players)

Phoenix_Dfire · Nov 10, 2021

Terry Daniels said:
I was thinking bare bones 3D head look

solution in that very sentence

VR players would still be stuck with mouse, controller or HOTAS (and probably sitting down), so no more advantage than someone playing with a head or eye tracker (or, if its possible, ensure VR players are only instanced with other VR players)

But it's not a few days work.

Terry Daniels · Nov 10, 2021

Phoenix_Dfire said:
But it's not a few days work.

OK, I wasn't going to bite but I've barely started my morning coffee so...
You're right, it's not a few days work, more like 30 minutes:

1) Instead of sending one camera information of the scene to your monitor you send two slightly offset camera info's to the HMD (this gives it its 3D-ness which the computer computes automatically even for the monitor pancake mode so no work there).
2) The game uses the HMD movement just like MouseLook to know where the player is looking at*.
3) VR!
4) ...
5) Profit.

The rest is just taters and gravy.

* And where in space since the HMD has 6 degree's of freedom so slightly better than MouseLook.

AlSki · Nov 10, 2021

Terry Daniels said:
OK, I wasn't going to bite but I've barely started my morning coffee so...
You're right, it's not a few days work, more like 30 minutes:

1) Instead of sending one camera information of the scene to your monitor you send two slightly offset camera info's to the HMD (this gives it its 3D-ness which the computer computes automatically even for the monitor pancake mode so no work there).
2) The game uses the HMD movement just like MouseLook to know where the player is looking at*.
3) VR!
4) ...
5) Profit.

The rest is just taters and gravy.

* And where in space since the HMD has 6 degree's of freedom so slightly better than MouseLook.

Wow, you really haven't thought this through have you? (Sorry not had coffee either)

Let's try one of the simpler complications;
How do you handle if a player in VR ducks? While moving? And they duck laterally in a direction that isn't the same as the one they are moving in? And they move faster than a non-VR player can?
What if a VR player lies down; Sniper style?
How do you handle the community uproar that VR players now have a massive advantage?

There is a saying in professional IT; You don't pay developers to write code, you pay them to think about what code to write

-VR- Max Factor · Nov 10, 2021

AlSki said:
Wow, you really haven't thought this through have you? (Sorry not had coffee either)

Let's try one of the simpler complications;
How do you handle if a player in VR ducks? While moving? And they duck laterally in a direction that isn't the same as the one they are moving in? And they move faster than a non-VR player can?
What if a VR player lies down; Sniper style?
How do you handle the community uproar that VR players now have a massive advantage?

There is a saying in professional IT; You don't pay developers to write code, you pay them to think about what code to write

Because it will be a seated VR experience whether you are flying your ship, using your SRV or using your feet. It will be a controller of your choice experience instead of doing full roomscale. Simple as that. It's how NMS does VR, no reason why ED can't either.

AlSki · Nov 10, 2021

-VR- Max Factor said:
Because it will be a seated VR experience whether you are flying your ship, using your SRV or using your feet. It will be a controller of your choice experience instead of doing full roomscale. Simple as that. It's how NMS does VR, no reason why ED can't either.

That works.

Except, then the next Group are upset
"You've implemented VR, but I can't get out of my chair. It can't be hard. Just track my head movements. It's not more than 30 mins work"

Terry Daniels · Nov 10, 2021

AlSki said:
Except, then the next Group are upset
"You've implemented VR, but I can't get out of my chair. It can't be hard. Just track my head movements. It's not more than 30 mins work"

Had my coffee now

and yea, you're never gonna make all the people happy all the time.

-VR- Max Factor · Nov 10, 2021

AlSki said:
That works.

Except, then the next Group are upset
"You've implemented VR, but I can't get out of my chair. It can't be hard. Just track my head movements. It's not more than 30 mins work"

Yup, but that will be tough.

Phoenix_Dfire · Nov 10, 2021

Terry Daniels said:
OK, I wasn't going to bite but I've barely started my morning coffee so...
You're right, it's not a few days work, more like 30 minutes:

1) Instead of sending one camera information of the scene to your monitor you send two slightly offset camera info's to the HMD (this gives it its 3D-ness which the computer computes automatically even for the monitor pancake mode so no work there).
2) The game uses the HMD movement just like MouseLook to know where the player is looking at*.
3) VR!
4) ...
5) Profit.

The rest is just taters and gravy.

* And where in space since the HMD has 6 degree's of freedom so slightly better than MouseLook.

... trying not to be baited!!

Damn!

Failed!

People will be throwing up their coffee with 15 minutes and equals more whinging on the forums! Ever tried the original half life mod which puts VR in exactly as you describe? Awful. You need an iron stomach because it feels so wrong. That's one of the reasons that teleporting has been put in so many VR games, so to stop the vomit comet. As soon as you add teleporting, then you have to put in more work to compensate for it via multiplayer (i.e., the VR player teleports but to every one observing their character actually runs to the point they selected, thus giving opposing players a chance to shoot them)

In addition, look at Skyrim-VR or NMS-VR (Both excellent BTW). They had to completely redesign the UI to take into account hand movements, how you hold your sword / gun. It's a phenomenal piece of work and it certainly didn't take a single dev half and hour or a 'couple of days' to put in.

I want on-foot VR (Even more than I want ship interiors) but I do know how much work it is to do properly. So I'm not expecting it any time soon and Fdev's priority should be getting Odyssey up to scratch and then the console versions. After that, then look at on-foot VR. Just bare in mind, it did take NMS three years to put on-foot VR in.

Now I need a camomile tea just to calm down after that!

AlSki · Nov 10, 2021

Phoenix_Dfire said:
Now I need a camomile tea just to calm down after that!

LOL

MoodBear · Nov 10, 2021

Please, no NMS style VR, it is one of the reasons I don't play it. I hate the touch controllers, I don't need all that extra VR implementation. For now, any control device currently supported is fine (on foot I prefer xbox controller - vr or not), get rid of the gray mask, scale it properly, setup HUD as VR SRV does, use head tracking as VR SRV does. That is it! Implement it as currently is done in SRV VR. Use controllers of choice that are already supported for foot, nothing more. No lying down, no dodging, just sitting in a seat as done now in VR SRV, using KBM or pad controller, whatever.

I think this would make a lot of VR players much happier. Sure, some may say, hey, I want to get out of my seat and have my entire movement tracked, want to hold my gun and aim with touch controllers, etc. Well, maybe one day, maybe not... But for now, just the simple "implement it as we have now for SRV in VR" would be fine and greatly improve the immersion killing situation we have currently.

If you don't know what I'm talking about, SRV VR is you in a seat. Some people say that cockpit in ship and SRV is a lot easier to do in VR than foot. Foot in VR can be handled just like cockpits, as in using xbox controller or KBM and being seated, you handle foot control as you do currently. Of course, performance might be a thing in settlements and I for one believe this was possibly a reason why foot VR is neutered as it is, performance proved too dreadful on the first attempt. Just guessing. Maybe one day performance will be up to snuff. Again, just guessing.

S. Belmont · Nov 10, 2021

Phoenix_Dfire said:
... trying not to be baited!!

Damn!

Failed!

People will be throwing up their coffee with 15 minutes and equals more whinging on the forums! Ever tried the original half life mod which puts VR in exactly as you describe? Awful. You need an iron stomach because it feels so wrong. That's one of the reasons that teleporting has been put in so many VR games, so to stop the vomit comet. As soon as you add teleporting, then you have to put in more work to compensate for it via multiplayer (i.e., the VR player teleports but to every one observing their character actually runs to the point they selected, thus giving opposing players a chance to shoot them)

In addition, look at Skyrim-VR or NMS-VR (Both excellent BTW). They had to completely redesign the UI to take into account hand movements, how you hold your sword / gun. It's a phenomenal piece of work and it certainly didn't take a single dev half and hour or a 'couple of days' to put in.

I want on-foot VR (Even more than I want ship interiors) but I do know how much work it is to do properly. So I'm not expecting it any time soon and Fdev's priority should be getting Odyssey up to scratch and then the console versions. After that, then look at on-foot VR. Just bare in mind, it did take NMS three years to put on-foot VR in.

Now I need a camomile tea just to calm down after that!

I loved HL2 VR mod. I loved Doom 3 VR mod. Alien Isolation VR mod. And I played Skyrim on VR with injector before it was officially possible. There are many of us who are not prone to VR sickness.

Barebone, but working VR experience is just so close in EDO that it feels quite frustrating.

Almost looks like they made more effort disabling it (making onfoot VR appear on virtual screen) than just letting it run in full VR even when exiting ship. At least they should have left the option to choose.

MoodBear · Nov 11, 2021

S. Belmont said:
Almost looks like they made more effort disabling it (making onfoot VR appear on virtual screen) than just letting it run in full VR even when exiting ship. At least they should have left the option to choose.

Totally agree with this observation. It is so close to being done, but for some reason, more work was done to "mask" it. It is like someone thought that VR foot would have to have touch controller support or else it would not be acceptable, maybe. It could have been delivered as SRV VR cockpit with cockpit removed and HUD updated. But I'm sure I am over simplifying, or maybe the performance was too bad. Who knows, only FDev knows. But one day, one can only hope.

The immersion of Elite Dangerous VR is just so awesome, and in EDO, still is. Once in VR, you can't go back. You are put into the ED universe, living a dream of childhood. Then foot fps virtual 2D presentation comes along and squash. For a VR player, you really do feel stepped on.

But I'm still playing EDO, ED is not dead, EDO is the platform to grow on and I have high hopes. Love it, warts and all.

Ingram · Nov 11, 2021

I heard in onfoot VR mode, if we switch to cam suite game will show a full VR rather a 2D stuff.
If that is true I guess dev is short of staff converting first person view elements such as hands and guns to true VR.