PvP Rumination on PvP: What REALLY is the difference between a player and an NPC?

My personal experience differs from the OP's

Full disclosure: I'm broadly an explorer and enjoy finding my own way. I have participated in a BGS and powerplay. I dont actively engage in much combat but I have bounty hunted and done some combat missions. I now mostly fly in solo/PG.

If I am flying around doing regular stuff then being attacked because i'm on the other side in a BGS contest is 'one of those things'... mostly.

The issue for me has two interconnected elements
1) Motive - every action begins with a motivation. A reason why somebody wants to do something. In my first examples they do it because we are on opposite sides. I signed up to pick a side on the BGS. Even if I am pirated the pirate is motivated by an immersion reason - He wants my cargo, and I put myself in a place where he can get it. However with players the motivation can be outside of immersion. Random acts of violence that serve no purpose other than to 'ruin my day' and 'because I can.'

2) Risks and consequences - every choice to do something is a balance of risks and consequences. Societies exist because we all understand and except the risks and consequences of our actions. "eat your greens or you can't have dessert" to "if you kill someone you will lose your freedom." When I fly into a system on BGS business I accept the risk that I may be attacked. I also accept therefore that the consequences of me losing might be a loss of cargo or a rebuy. I use those consequences to make my choice. The same is true for someone attacking me. However the risk of an engineered anaconda or corvette being brought down by my ASP, Type6, Dolphin or Cobra is pretty negligible. So the likelihood of my attacker losing something is small. Likewise the loss is small. 5% of ship value is pretty negligible. So the attacker has great freedom in his choices.

So in reality he isn't playing the same risk and consequence game I am. Oddly his gains are not high either. What does he get for killing me? 1 kill (irrelevant if he's already combat elite), fun, personal satisfaction. (see motive above). In my experience, a player confident enough in his skills and ship to interdict you is going to be better than most NPCs. Significantly better. He is choosing to make the attack in most cases will choose to do so when he thinks his consequences will be lowest.

The balancing act to these risks and consequences in our society is the judicial system. It provides a risk of capture and significant consequences if the rules of that society are broken. "no dessert" is a serious consequence when you are 6, jail is a serious consequence when you are 36. However all game worlds struggle to implement a judicial system (C&P in elite) that balances the risk/consequence to reduce/eliminate unwanted actions whilst balancing the fun element for those that want to follow a criminal career path.

The reality is that game designers have to balance two utterly opposing views - both of whom are their customers and paid the same for the game. It's impossible to solve in a way that satisfies everyone.

(my personal view is C&P is too soft in high security systems and too strong in low ones. Make highly populated and high security systems near impossible to be abd guy in but make low security systems genuinely dangerous with a real frontier feel. Ship rebuy should be much harder as a deterrent - loss of modules, data mats etc. (same as exploration data) ... anyway I digress)

I have absolutely no argument with those who want to a criminal style of game play. I can imagine its a lot of fun. But isn't the point of being a criminal to be involved in high risk activities and... not get caught? Isn't evading the law, living on the edge of society, fearing the policeman knocking on your door part of that gameplay. Holing up in an anarchy outpost and dominating the local space, building reputation as a master scumbag and making everyone scared to enter your system? Not, hanging around in high security busy systems playing whack-a-mole as ships come out of wake fighting the police, rebuying your ship, paying off a fine and coming back the following day to do it all again? Your fun should not equal dozens of other players pain in the .


So back to answering the OP's question - does NPC/PC matter?

Yes and No.

No, because most people are simply decent human beings that enjoy playing computer games and shooting people. I get shot because we are on competing sides of a conflict or have differing in-game objectives then that's all part of the game I cchoose to play. But some of the players are also sad griefing little bunnies that needed more hugs when they were younger.

NPC's only ever have in-game motivation. Players can have motivation which is just 'i want to screw you up and i have nothing to lose'. NPC's will 'do their job' and kill you or demand cargo and then be on their way. They don't have the ability to show up and attack over nd over again because the grief gets them off.

NPC's (through game design) tend to be set as a reasonable challenge against your current ability. PC's tend to target fights they can win so as the 'defender' you are more than likely going to be at a significant disadvantage. For the attacking PC there is very little in the way of risk and consequence.


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As an aside the funniest conversation I have had with an aggressive griefer went something like this..
  • ME (flying a type 6) "Hi, did you enjoy those 2 minutes of shooting fish in a barrel?"
  • HIM (flying a conda) "Don't give me that . This ship cost me a billion credits, that's 50m every rebuy. Do you understand how many of you (insert personal insult here) I have to kill to make enough money to get a rebuy?"
  • ME "Do you get killed often?"
  • HIM "Never - I'm far too good a pilot Elite see... not like you Mostly Harmless hahaha."
  • ME "So, you are killing people to get funds to cover a rebuy you don't need because you are not at risk of losing?"
  • HIM "expletive, expletive, something about getting good, expletive"

He waited around in the system I was working BGS in on and off for days after that. So i flew solo.

However my personal worst experience and the one that pushed me almost solely into Solo was dropping into Open just so i could take pictures with a fellow explorer at Sag A* after a couple of months of exploration and having an Elite anaconda arrive and destroy two completely unarmed vessels because "exploration is for losers - go learn how to fly." (Mixed with many expletives). I lost several hundred million credits of exploration data and dozens of first tagged, and his view was 'Its boring flying back, i'll just suicide'. So my loss - several hundred million and 2 months playtime. His gain... ? personal satisfaction....?


Interestingly Exploration data is the ONLY asset other than credits and cargo which you can lose permanently. Even credits your loss is limited to 5% of ship value and cargo is limited to your ship hold. Every other asset is replaced on re-buy. If you fly cargo then even on a long range mission you probably have it in your hold for an hour, so a loss of a shipment is annoying but kind of replaceable (even if it means you fail one mission). But a long exploration might have weeks and months of valuable data.

So the most vulnerable game asset is the one that tends to take the greatest investment of time to find, isn't replaceable, can't be traded in regularly and yet is sought by those least able to protect it. yet those who regularly put their ships into high risk environments like combat get a safety net that limits any loss to just 5% of value ...

That's when you'll find this explorer getting salty at getting griefed. Hence Solo.


EDITED TO ADD : For completenes I should add that a crew member is another asset you can lose permanently. However you can replace them at most stations and the credit sums are relatively small, although the time spent training them up is lost.
 
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OK here goes...

The difference between a player and an NPC is that a human player has consciousness, agency, motives, and emotions. An NPC has no emotions, consciousness, agency, and only a very limited and hard-coded motive.

NPC's do not deliberately set out to ruin a player's time in the game inasmuch as they don't make a conscious decision to do so - the game is programmed to spawn some NPC according to a limited set of criteria - e.g. if a player is carrying cargo then the game is probably going to spawn a pirate-archetype NPC.

NPC's do not lie in wait in a deliberately weakened ship for speeding CMDR's coming into or out of a spaceport, ram the CMDR, blow up, causing the speeding CMDR to get attacked and destroyed by the spaceport. Human players do this.

NPC's do not fly to Sagittarius A* and blow up weak explorer ships for the lulz. Human players do.

NPC's do not fly to a place of interest such as a Guardian site, Thargoid site, or Barnacle site, and proceed to blow up as many landed ships at that site as possible, for the lulz. Human players do this.

NPC's don't then subsequently toy with the now-stranded players who are driving their SRV's for a while then blow them up. Human players do this.

I could go on but by now I think you get the picture.

Point being this: there's definitely a psychological difference between getting blown up by an NPC, and getting blown up by a human player. If you were blown up by an NPC then you know this was down to either biting off more than you could chew, or having made some error (e.g. accidentlly selecting silent running and shutting your shield off) - against a bit of unthinking computer code. Getting blown up by a player definitely has a different feeling to it - if you take the examples I gave above, it could activate more than just annoyance and frustration or humour, depending on the context of what you were doing in game at that time. Getting blown up by a player at Sag.A* for the lulz, for example, is obviously psychologically different from making some mistake there yourself - especially if the other player taunts you in message about it afterwards.
 
A player and an NPC, when in the context of the game, are functionally indistinguishable. When in a combat scenario, they are both hostile entities attempting to kill you. Sure, a player might be more skilled, but there are many NPCs in this game that are cranked up to 11 and can kill you better than the majority of players could.

Why is it that when an NPC interdicts you when you're just trying to trade, it's just a fact of the game and you deal with and ignore it, yet when a player does it, it's "griefing"?
Why is it that when an NPC group attacks you in a HAZ RES and forces you to flee, it's just a challenge you weren't able to overcome, but when it's a group of players, it's "people being jerks"?

Both are functionally the same. You're getting attacked by a hostile entity, whether or not it's a computer or a human controlling the pretend spaceship makes no difference when in the context of the game.

So why then, do people hate PvP so much and yet will happily engage in combat with NPCs even if they have no hope of winning?

Discuss.
There's 2 things to unpack here.

Interdicting when someone's trying to trade, is too wide a scope for the G-label. Same with the CZ. Context matters.
Second, the NPC cannot have any malice. Players can. NPCs don't go out of their way with the explicit goal of ruining other player's game. A select group of players does.

Once again, we're back to the only reasoning for this being that people want easy wins spoon-fed to them with no sense of challenge whatsoever, which completely defeats the point of a game with any sort of combat or progression system.
Ah I see why you raised that question with a predetermined answer at the ready.
 
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For me it does no matter who will attack me, or who i will attack, no matter its NPC or human. As in real life, no one need to have a reason of need to killing me or You.
It may be done because you have some valuable, or just 'because'. People are as they are, so at the end, it have matter who has the bigger gun or faster legs, hover i do not know a person faster than a bullet.

Thats why its good to watch Your back, both in game, and RL.
Elite is dangerous, galaxy is big, you can be peacefully person, but not everone need to be like You.

I am not considering playing a game as PvP or PvE. Its PvU. Player vs Universe, and both players and NPC are a part of this world.
 
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If a bunch of kids are having a kickabout in the park and a dog runs over and grabs the ball and runs off with it and drops it in a river, then I'm gonna find it hard to stay mad at that dog. It's a dog doing what dogs do. Maybe have a few choice words for the owner for not keeping their animal under control, but it's not the animal's fault.

If I were to run over, grab their ball, and dump it in the river myself, then I'd expect to be compared to pieces of anatomy that are normally covered by boxers.
 
If a bunch of kids are having a kickabout in the park and a dog runs over and grabs the ball and runs off with it and drops it in a river, then I'm gonna find it hard to stay mad at that dog. It's a dog doing what dogs do. Maybe have a few choice words for the owner for not keeping their animal under control, but it's not the animal's fault.

If I were to run over, grab their ball, and dump it in the river myself, then I'd expect to be compared to pieces of anatomy that are normally covered by boxers.

And if you turn off your humanity then you can kick a dog, kick an owner of dog and you and your friends may tell to police you were attacked by them. Its only matter of point of view and good story.
There are a lot of people with turned off humanity :)

At the end you can do it even if there will be no ball, no kids, no river.

My point is - nobody needs a reason to be evil.
 
1) Motive - every action begins with a motivation. A reason why somebody wants to do something. In my first examples they do it because we are on opposite sides. I signed up to pick a side on the BGS. Even if I am pirated the pirate is motivated by an immersion reason - He wants my cargo, and I put myself in a place where he can get it. However with players the motivation can be outside of immersion. Random acts of violence that serve no purpose other than to 'ruin my day' and 'because I can.'

The whole post is worth reading, but I find this part quite important.

I never got on NPC KOS list because I "loudmouthed". And I heard them say things like "this is not worth dying for".
NPC always know what game they're playing, while people tend to have different understanding of this concept.
 
The whole post is worth reading, but I find this part quite important.

I never got on NPC KOS list because I "loudmouthed". And I heard them say things like "this is not worth dying for".
NPC always know what game they're playing, while people tend to have different understanding of this concept.

Thanks Florenus.

I'd like to clarify that players can have motivation outside of immersion. I'm not suggesting they all do. There are a very large majority of fun to play with PvPer's. I was trying to draw a distinction between NPC's PC's that roleplay and PC's that grief.

o7
 
Thanks Florenus.

I'd like to clarify that players can have motivation outside of immersion. I'm not suggesting they all do. There are a very large majority of fun to play with PvPer's. I was trying to draw a distinction between NPC's PC's that roleplay and PC's that grief.

o7
o7
Understood and absolutely agree. While playing in open recently, I was interdicted about 4 times in one session I think. It was all fun.
The funny part was that the fourth guy was an NPC and I realised that in the middle of it only because he was repeating familiar scripted sentences. He also was more dangerous than the players, because he started shooting before I was able to jettison the cargo he wanted. He ceased fire then though.
Not that it was fun, because I wasn't destroyed. It was fun, because we were all willingly playing the same game.
 
My point is - nobody needs a reason to be evil.

Balderdash and tosh.

There is always a reason. There is always some agency and motivation for a human to perpetrate evil - IRL or in video games.

Basically, any time a human being is involved in something, there is always agency, motivation, and feelings involved.

This is why IRL, law enforcement may employ the use of criminal psychologists to aid in the capture of criminals, precisely because a human being is involved.

It doesn't matter if it's a video game - one or more humans are invloved in playing video games. Ergo: agency, motivation, and feelings will be factors.
 
Balderdash and tosh.

There is always a reason. There is always some agency and motivation for a human to perpetrate evil - IRL or in video games.

Basically, any time a human being is involved in something, there is always agency, motivation, and feelings involved.

This is why IRL, law enforcement may employ the use of criminal psychologists to aid in the capture of criminals, precisely because a human being is involved.

It doesn't matter if it's a video game - one or more humans are invloved in playing video games. Ergo: agency, motivation, and feelings will be factors.


You people really need to learn how to separate fantasy from reality. Constantly trying to draw parallels between real life murder and ganking in a space ship game is the type of things the "video games cause school shootings, ban them" people push.
 
You people really need to learn how to separate fantasy from reality. Constantly trying to draw parallels between real life murder and ganking in a space ship game is the type of things the "video games cause school shootings, ban them" people push.

Not saying that at all. Re-read what was stated. The premise I was responding to was that "nobody needs a reason to do evil". And I stand by the fact that any time you have a human involved in any activity, that agency, motivation, feelings are also involved.

Unless of course you are implying that you are a mindless, motiveless, unfeeling automaton when you load up a computer game?
 
The only 'real' difference between a player and a NPC is the amount of salt you can mine.... NPC are way chiller than most players :p
 
So the only complaint is the threat of losing? People only complain about PvP because they're angry that it's an actual challenge that they can't beat 100% of the time?

Mostly.

There also seem to be those who are petty enough to always want to be the center of the universe in a multi-player game. Once another player enters the equation, they cannot be sure that their personal narrative will play out as they have preordained.

The vast majority of NPC interdictions are foreshadowed in chat, and are predictable anyway because they are attached to missions. In other words, they make some semblance of sense within the context of the game. Conversely, many interdictions by players make little-to-no sense within the context of the rest of the game: The sole reason for the interdiction is the hollow square.

I take issue with this assertion.

Hostile NPC interactions have no more verisimilitude than CMDR ones, typically.

There is nothing implausible about any NPC or CMDR having good cause to attack mine. My CMDR is not a particularly nice person; he's an unapologetic mass murderer, slave trader, and worse.

There is also nothing implausible about someone who has cause to harm my CMDR not wanting to reveal their intent or forfeit the initiative by going off on some silly tirade about how I killed their father or how I should prepare to die.

There is something highly implausible about almost any NPC--when they know they don't have a magic ejection seat that will always save them, or comically good Pilot's Federation insurance--being willing to initiate hostilities with my CMDR, when all they can expect to gain from such an act is certain death.

Indeed, I find it more plausible, with in the context of the game's setting as it's depicted for us, for some other CMDR to immediately engage my CMDR simply because he's a CMDR, than for the entire opposing force of NPCs in a CZ to not immediately unconditionally surrender, or high-wake, when I show up in a Corvette, because they should damn well know he's fully capable of killing them all.

NPC's don't give a "o7" or "gg" after a fight and have a convo with you about what worked and what didn't.

That's because they don't survive.

1) Motive - every action begins with a motivation. A reason why somebody wants to do something. In my first examples they do it because we are on opposite sides. I signed up to pick a side on the BGS. Even if I am pirated the pirate is motivated by an immersion reason - He wants my cargo, and I put myself in a place where he can get it. However with players the motivation can be outside of immersion. Random acts of violence that serve no purpose other than to 'ruin my day' and 'because I can.'

I give people the benefit of the doubt and assume they have motive for attacking my CMDR. Maybe he enslaved, or ate, one of their cousins. Maybe I blew up his or her ship at some point in the past. Maybe they just assume I'm a threat.

Sure, it's possible they have no motive other than attempting to irk me as a player, but I'd have to be pretty paranoid to make that my first assumption.
 
NPCs have no pride. They are there to cater to our egos. We all know that we would not stand a chanse, if they did their best.
They are caricatures of lesser skilled humans. Those that don’t qualify as PF members.

Be nice to the NPCs. One day they might decide to bite back. ;)
 
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