Same old song about cheaters

[DaveB]

That only works if FD can flag direct from their server data. Seeing as combat in Elite is P2P, with only major events synced serverside, you would be relying on a combination of clientside flagging and watchdog confirmation.

I don't need to point out just what a nasty mess that can turn out to be. Never trust the client!

Indeed. You can "trust" to a limited extent, reports that clients make on OTHER clients, but never clients self-reporting. Reports on other clients are also open to abuse, but where you have that dataset you can also flag clients that consistently submit bogus reports too and nail two buckets of cheaters with one rock

 

[Jukelo]

That only works if FD can flag direct from their server data. Seeing as combat in Elite is P2P, with only major events synced serverside, you would be relying on a combination of clientside flagging and watchdog confirmation.

I don't need to point out just what a nasty mess that can turn out to be. Never trust the client!

As long as you're not relying on too few samples, it would take a pretty big and coordinated attempt to work around such methods to do nefarious stuff with it. At which point you're back to the issue with conspiracy, that the bigger they get the harder they are to conceal.
Fairly sure it's better than the current situation anyway.

 

[Siranui]

Flagging can work since if a player is disconnecting constantly in the middle of combat with another player present, it's not only probable to assume there is malicious intention, but also evidence for punishment for ruining other players' experience.Eliminating rebuy would make death meaningless, so that's not an option.Also the assumption that PvP is just about boiling ship up is either pure ignorance or false categorizing.

Mostly because this forum has a heavy PvE population, which the issue doesn't even concern most of the users here, not surprised, really.

Flagging would indeed work. Although I would rather it be done FD's side, rather than relying on being triggered by the reports of other players. Heck, I wouldn't even mind if it was entirely ignored if the player was pure PvE, because then it's their own business if they want to cheat.

However, it's a high maintenance way of doing things, because I'm not sure it could be entirely trusted as an automated process, and some manual review would be needed.

Regarding the 30 second disconnect, I used to play EQ on a PvE server and the rule was still there. We took it on the chin regardless. Certainly made for some tense panic evacuations. However, I'm willing to concede that the amount of support requests it might create could be higher than the amount of work that a flagging mechanism would take to review.

(Personally, I'd be willing to get involved in PvP if house was cleaned and I knew that people I were playing with weren't going to actively cheat should I miraculously manage to get the upper hand. Why would I sit at a poker table where I know half the players are going to grab their chips, knock over the table and run out of the door when they start to lose?)

 

[NeilUK02]

I don't combat log, but then I don't play in Open, but remember that its not always a case of combat logging, sometimes someone's computer may have issues, his/her computer may be crashing, or frozen and he has to quit. Also for those of us in Mobius I wouldn't call it cheating if someone breaks the rules and attacks a human player. If that player combat logs I would say fair enough (If the attack is outside of the Mobius rules)

I've never been attacked in Mobius but I know it has happened, if someone combat logs in that scenario I say fair enough, they have chosen to play without PvP so should be allowed to do so. If you are in Open though and you Combat Log then I would say its cheating. However what can FDEV do about it really? Cheating happens in life and I guess we just have to deal with it

 

[Siranui]

Cheating happens in life and I guess we just have to deal with it

IRL we deal with it by then not playing with that person, ostracising them and publicly labelling them for what they are. They are punished by the exchange.

The only way of doing that in this game is unfortunately by changing modes to Solo or a private group, which is to the detriment of the non-cheater and the wider community. Thus we cannot rely on social mechanisms to prevent it.

 

[Jukelo]

I don't combat log, but then I don't play in Open, but remember that its not always a case of combat logging, sometimes someone's computer may have issues, his/her computer may be crashing, or frozen and he has to quit. Also for those of us in Mobius I wouldn't call it cheating if someone breaks the rules and attacks a human player. If that player combat logs I would say fair enough (If the attack is outside of the Mobius rules)

The rules against combat logging are the same whether you're playing in Open or in Solo, and of course in private groups. The Mobius player-made rules don't supersede the game's rules in any way, and combat logging in Mobius, whether it's to escape death by player or by NPC, should be punished the same by Frontier.

I've never been attacked in Mobius but I know it has happened, if someone combat logs in that scenario I say fair enough, they have chosen to play without PvP so should be allowed to do so. If you are in Open though and you Combat Log then I would say its cheating. However what can FDEV do about it really? Cheating happens in life and I guess we just have to deal with it

Playing in Mobius doesn't mean you choose to play without PvP. Playing in Mobius means you chose to play with the Mobius players, who (generally speaking) share a gentleman's agreement to not take part in unwanted PvP. That's not an agreement recognized by the game though, and the way to deal with a breach of that agreement isn't to cheat to avoid the consequences of an unwanted death (death is rarely ever wanted, whether at the hands of a player or NPC, and whatever the mode, it's still an integral part of the game) but to exclude the player from the group.

 

[xondk]

The thing I hope people remember, is that while combat logging is not allowed people can have a very valid reason for doing it, if they have experienced a lot of griefing or other such non sense, in that case, I think the reason is solid, though the action is not.
And on that point it is up to the attackers to moderate their behaviour, and no this doesn't mean all kind and whatnot, but simply give people a chance, rather then start shooting, communicate with them, I've seen plenty of video's of piracy where it is done right and both sides are fine, course I've also seen plenty where its blatant griefing and nothing to do with piracy so yeah....if a person has more experience with griefers then with actual pirates, they react accordingly, not right, not legal reaction, but I understand it.

 

[Jukelo]

The thing I hope people remember, is that while combat logging is not allowed people can have a very valid reason for doing it, if they have experienced a lot of griefing or other such non sense, in that case, I think the reason is solid, though the action is not.
And on that point it is up to the attackers to moderate their behaviour, and no this doesn't mean all kind and whatnot, but simply give people a chance, rather then start shooting, communicate with them, I've seen plenty of video's of piracy where it is done right and both sides are fine, course I've also seen plenty where its blatant griefing and nothing to do with piracy so yeah....if a person has more experience with griefers then with actual pirates, they react accordingly, not right, not legal reaction, but I understand it.

Combat logging is cheating, whether other players are involved or not, whatever the reason. You may think you have a reasonable justification to do it, but you're wrong in all cases that don't involve a bug. Changing 'griefing' behaviours isn't going to make combat logging go away.

 

[Jaredd]

Come on! How about fixing crime and punishment first? Way to much griefing in this game. If in a high security system NPC police turned up on time to help traders etc ppl would not need to combat log?

When it takes me hours to get a couple of million credits and a re-buy costs 5 million combat logging seems more atractive than ship destruction. I think the crime and punishment system needs overhauling first...

 

[IndigoWyrd]

They can look at analytics though. It's may not be a popular idea to punish players who have random disconnects (personally I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't be allowed to play an online-only game with a shared universe where your actions, even in solo, impact everyone if your network can't handle it), but if there's a clear pattern of players somehow losing connection during combat situations then who's going to feel bad for them if Frontier wield the banhammer?

Who wants that job? "Yes, I work in the analytics department. I look at logs all day to find patterns in thousands of players connection habits to make sure they're not intentionally logging out in the middle of combat."
And who would pay them? What profit do they bring to the company?

That much aside, what loss is there to the attacker when his target logs out on him? A few rounds of wasted ammo? Maybe some minor repairs? A single cargo mission will make up for that. Hurt pride? Pride is worthless.And what do you stand to gain from this? A bounty? Maybe some space junk you already have a cargo hold full of? Seriously, what's the gain? If they simply disappear you still "win". You lost nothing, and you carry on with your life.

What's the loss to the victim though? Potentially hours of gameplay for the rebuy cost? More if they can't afford a rebuy. Mission failures, loss of rep, loss of inf, fines on top of a rebuy? What incentive do they have to stick it out? Did they even agree to engage in combat in the first place?

I've also played in quite a few other games, some which were PvP focused, some where it was optional, and quite a few where both players had to enable it to be able to participate. Attacking someone who didn't have this enabled did nothing to either the attacker or the victim, and just resulted in a few wasted animations. And in cases of consentual PvP where someone does disconnect, either willingly or otherwise, it's a simple courtesy to log back in, say "oops, something happened" and resume the battle. No big deal. And when it wasn't, I've never lost anything from it except perhaps the few minutes of time spent doing something with no other benefit.

But make no mistake, I don't condone this sort of behavior, especially when PvP is consentual. But I DO understand it, especially when an attack by other player is unwanted. Who's gameplay is being interfered with more? I'm going to have to side with the victim of an unwanted engagement.

NPC's, on the other hand, I have no issue with anyone logging out on them when they're bothering you. They have everything weighted in the favor already, no feelings to hurt, never post in the forums about commanders logging out on them, and simply do not get an opinion.

 

[Mikey2305]

Oh good, a combat logging thread...

 

[Arry]

Combat logging is cheating, whether other players are involved or not, whatever the reason. You may think you have a reasonable justification to do it, but you're wrong in all cases that don't involve a bug. Changing 'griefing' behaviours isn't going to make combat logging go away.

But it would help, cut it down.

 

[CMDR Dreamstate]

In game where you can avoid paying the insurances without so much efforts, using combatlog is nonsense

It seems to have paid off for you - Elite in all 3 categories and not 1 Insurance Claim in your signature...

Am I suspicious much? Sure am lol

 

[xondk]

Combat logging is cheating, whether other players are involved or not, whatever the reason. You may think you have a reasonable justification to do it, but you're wrong in all cases that don't involve a bug. Changing 'griefing' behaviours isn't going to make combat logging go away.

Please actually read what I wrote.
I am not trying to justify it, I'm saying there is a REASON for them choosing to do so. Explaining their reasoning (as far as I have read) does not mean that I approve of people combat logging, not one bit, So yeah I'm unsure what you read in what I wrote.
Simply going "They are cheating!" does not solve anything, but if you address the reason they are cheating, it just might, and the vast majority of combat loggers do so, last I have seen their claims, because they do not want to risk having to deal with a griefer, or a player that just attacks and blows them up.
So yeah, if we change stuff we might also need to change the attitude attackers have towards their victims, I'm not saying you should be all nice and such, I'm saying, give them a chance to react for example, but the counter point I hear from pirates and others is, "If I do not attack they will just combat log instantly" hopefully you can see that this is a self reinforcing infinitive loop? and one we need to break for all involved?

 

[Jukelo]

Who wants that job? "Yes, I work in the analytics department. I look at logs all day to find patterns in thousands of players connection habits to make sure they're not intentionally logging out in the middle of combat."
And who would pay them? What profit do they bring to the company?

Browsing through data to look for patterns is hardly something new in the history of mankind. As for why anyone would want to do that, usually money at the end of the month in return for you doing something matching your competence is motivation enough. And as for why a company would want to hire such a person...are you seriously asking me why a game company would look at preventing cheating in their video game?

That much aside, what loss is there to the attacker when his target logs out on him? A few rounds of wasted ammo? Maybe some minor repairs? A single cargo mission will make up for that. Hurt pride? Pride is worthless.And what do you stand to gain from this? A bounty? Maybe some space junk you already have a cargo hold full of? Seriously, what's the gain? If they simply disappear you still "win". You lost nothing, and you carry on with your life.

What's the loss to the victim though? Potentially hours of gameplay for the rebuy cost? More if they can't afford a rebuy. Mission failures, loss of rep, loss of inf, fines on top of a rebuy? What incentive do they have to stick it out? Did they even agree to engage in combat in the first place?

When you're being attacked by an NPC, that NPC has even less to lose. Still you should be punished if you cheat. Because it's not about what your attacker loses, it's about promoting an attitude where players try their best to overcome adversity. It's kinda the core of any game.

I've also played in quite a few other games, some which were PvP focused, some where it was optional, and quite a few where both players had to enable it to be able to participate. Attacking someone who didn't have this enabled did nothing to either the attacker or the victim, and just resulted in a few wasted animations. And in cases of consentual PvP where someone does disconnect, either willingly or otherwise, it's a simple courtesy to log back in, say "oops, something happened" and resume the battle. No big deal. And when it wasn't, I've never lost anything from it except perhaps the few minutes of time spent doing something with no other benefit.

But make no mistake, I don't condone this sort of behavior, especially when PvP is consentual. But I DO understand it, especially when an attack by other player is unwanted. Who's gameplay is being interfered with more? I'm going to have to side with the victim of an unwanted engagement.

This is a purely PvP issue, and touches on the fallacy that you can pick and chose what you want in Open, I wont go there. Combat logging goes beyond that.

NPC's, on the other hand, I have no issue with anyone logging out on them when they're bothering you. They have everything weighted in the favor already, no feelings to hurt, never post in the forums about commanders logging out on them, and simply do not get an opinion.

A game that doesn't punish being this bad attracts the kind of playerbase any respectable company should leave up to Zynga to milk.

 

[shadragon]

This old chest nut.

Is Combat logging cheating? Of course it is; but then cheating seems to be a way of life in this modern world. Those that are meant to set us all an example, cheat all of the time: Politicians, bankers, lawyers, everyone is doing it.

So; should FD 'punish us' for combat logging? Nope. Why not? It is a valid option within the game, just like player killing for the laughs or flying without insurance.

Sorry Arry, I usually see eye-to-eye with you on many things, but not this. Combat logging (yanking the network cable out) is not a valid option, it is cheating. I'm hoping that with the new crime and punishment system they have a way of punishing loggers. They have said they can detect it in the past.

That said, logging off using the menu is not cheating and has been said to be a legal move by the devs.

 

[Arry]

Sorry Arry, I usually see eye-to-eye with you on many things, but not this. Combat logging (yanking the network cable out) is not a valid option, it is cheating. I'm hoping that with the new crime and punishment system they have a way of punishing loggers. They have said they can detect it in the past.

That said, logging off using the menu is not cheating and has been said to be a legal move by the devs.

Not done it myself. Is there a different out-come, between menu and yanking the cable?

 

[Siranui]

the vast majority of combat loggers do so, last I have seen their claims, because they do not want to risk having to deal with a griefer, or a player that just attacks and blows them up.

I think that is completely down to perception bias and don't really agree with the observation.

You see the combat loggers who come here to the forum to complain because someone shot them.

There are also lots of forum posts from people who combat logged because there was 'a bug' or 'the stupid game' when it was their own error, and their own belief that it was not their error that caused them to log.

What you and I are *not* seeing are the players who just quietly combat log whenever they don't want to die and pay rebuy or fail a mission or have to go back two minutes to their last station. They don't come on here to talk about it, but I suspect that it is at least as common as combat logging in PvP or due to thinking the game is 'cheating' on them. They are not cheating because of issues with the game. they are cheating because they prefer to cheat than face consequences, to the extent that it has ceased to be cheating for them; it is how they play.
Aside from removing every consequence from the game, no game improvement will prevent it. the only thing that prevents is is code that prevents or punishes it.

 

[the100thmonkey]

I just don't understand why people care so much about what 99.999% of the other players in the game do. You know, the same 99.999% of players that they will never interact with.

I mean really: who GAF?

Sure, if you get yourself into a PvP situation, it would be irritating to your opponent if you disappeared,or vice versa, but that's it.

Are you the same people who obsess about which holes men put their willies into, or what?

 

[shadragon]

Not done it myself. Is there a different out-come, between menu and yanking the cable?

Today? I don't think so save some game log files. I got stuck in the toaster rack with my clipper once and logged off when the station threatened to blast me for blocking the mail slot. Only time I've used it in an emergency.

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I just don't understand why people care so much about what 99.999% of the other players in the game do. You know, the same 99.999% of players that they will never interact with.

I mean really: who GAF?

Sure, if you get yourself into a PvP situation, it would be irritating to your opponent if you disappeared,or vice versa, but that's it.

I know what you're saying, my game does not influence yours. However, in piracy and player interactions many are using it (in Open mind) to avoid interactions with other players. Traders dropping off when interdicted by pirates, that sort of thing. It comes down to fairness in play. If it was just single player, no harm no foul, but in multi-player that's a different cat to skin IMHO.