Same old song about cheaters

[Jukelo]

Oh! Oh! Can I?

http://s18.postimg.org/tkwjeuc2h/Capture.jpg

Because this is interpreted to mean: "I will play my way, by my rules, and everyone else is obligated to play by my rules, or they are cheating."

[argument]Won[/argument]

Sandro himself has said combat logging, whether it's in Open or Solo, is against the rules. There's playing your way, and then there's cheating. In a multiplayer game with a shared universe, you're never just doing your thing.

 

[the100thmonkey]

Sandro himself has said combat logging, whether it's in Open or Solo, is against the rules. There's playing your way, and then there's cheating. In a multiplayer game with a shared universe, you're never just doing your thing.

But when you start bothering yourself and getting yourself all breathless and sweaty about what other people do with their time, it's time for people to stop caring what you think.

Why is that so hard to understand?

 

[Riverside]

I'm still worried that there is a large correlation between people who want solo to disappear, combat logging to be "punished" and irrational concerns about where men put their willies.

While I do largely agree with this, I can see the competitive element being a strong motivator. For some, they want to prove they are the better pilot (admirable against a willing opponent), for others they want to survive & thrive pitting their wits against the challenge. Willie waving has it's place.

People that want to prove they are the best, or at least be unkillable, but struggle to deal with being bested, within that set is a subset of combat loggers. Complaining about it & calling them cheaters isn't going to stop them doing it, but providing entertaining content so they can enjoy the experience, and maybe get a thrill & escape by the skin of their teeth, that might do it.

So Griefers, be a little less perfect at countering your opponent's every manoeuvre, be the comedy bad guy. Maybe you'll not see quite so many combat loggers if you present them with another choice (eg pirate in a slow ship so they can run away).

 

[the100thmonkey]

While I do largely agree with this, I can see the competitive element being a strong motivator. For some, they want to prove they are the better pilot (admirable against a willing opponent), for others they want to survive & thrive pitting their wits against the challenge. Willie waving has it's place.

People that want to prove they are the best, or at least be unkillable, but struggle to deal with being bested, within that set is a subset of combat loggers. Complaining about it & calling them cheaters isn't going to stop them doing it, but providing entertaining content so they can enjoy the experience, and maybe get a thrill & escape by the skin of their teeth, that might do it.

So Griefers, be a little less perfect at countering your opponent's every manoeuvre, be the comedy bad guy. Maybe you'll not see quite so many combat loggers if you present them with another choice (eg pirate in a slow ship so they can run away).

I wholeheartedly agree, but the point I've been trying to make is that the concern with what other people choose to do in a game isn't particularly healthy.

E:D just isn't a competitive game - there are no rules worth applying that can make it one either.

 

[Riverside]

I wholeheartedly agree, but the point I've been trying to make is that the concern with what other people choose to do in a game isn't particularly healthy.

E:D just isn't a competitive game - there are no rules worth applying that can make it one either.

But you are arguing against human nature People can be competitive, and this game allows for that. But it also allows for overkill.

Earlier this evening I was sat in a system full of gankers waiting for Sandro & Mark Allen. I was in an unarmed Cobra, just watching & scanning Cmdrs, and was ignored completely because I was neither a challenge nor a threat (or named Sandro it seems). This is fine (for me). If you're in a Cutter you probably wouldn't bother to interdict the guy in the T-7, but if you were in an Eagle maybe you would. This is a natural balance of the competitive spirit.

The problem comes up when everyone is running around in Cutters & Corvettes, and there aren't enough justifiable targets. The Trading community is being overfished like the North Sea.

If the current situation continues I can easily see the population largely moving to Groups & Solo, happy as Larry to leave Open to the Gankers. This doesn't really spoil the game all that much for the meek combat logger, but it does spoil it for the ganker,

So gank less hard, have a chink in your armour (metaphorically), allow them an escape, remind them they will be safe if they high wake & don't return (if that's your goal), or that for a paltry payment you will escort them to the station etc.

You are a badass, you know you could beat them, so you don;t need to. Every so often you will get a "rare & meaningful" coming together with an equally motivated opponent, and it will be the christmas Whiskey & cigar to your current 20-a-day & a six-pack habit.

 

[GluttonyFang]

And when I ask a question and get a politician's answer, I lose even more sympathy for their cause, even if it's not a cause I support. So either spell it out, line by line, or concede that this does not have any impact on you. But talking around the question, campaigning and selling your book just doesn't cut it. Answer the question.

Ugh... if only people read.... https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...out-cheaters?p=4693280&viewfull=1#post4693280 and https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...out-cheaters?p=4693467&viewfull=1#post4693467

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The well is 7 layers deep... mostly But you can make a career out of networking without ever getting below layer 3

I find it fascinating, and by no means am I an expert, but I really like the complexity and structure of network in general. I used to not have any idea how the internet actually works, so maybe it's a beginner's shock for me

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Oh! Oh! Can I?http://s18.postimg.org/tkwjeuc2h/Capture.jpgBecause this is interpreted to mean: "I will play my way, by my rules, and everyone else is obligated to play by my rules, or they are cheating."[argument]Won[/argument]

Well, if you had any credibility when you first appeared in this thread you've definitely lost it all.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Ugh... if only people read.... https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...out-cheaters?p=4693280&viewfull=1#post4693280 and https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...out-cheaters?p=4693467&viewfull=1#post4693467

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I find it fascinating, and by no means am I an expert, but I really like the complexity and structure of network in general. I used to not have any idea how the internet actually works, so maybe it's a beginner's shock for me

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Well, if you had any credibility when you first appeared in this thread you've definitely lost it all.

Gonna answer that? Because I'm calling you out.
You posted links back to your own quotes, but still have not answered the question. So I'll clarify:

How is this negatively impacting you? What standings of yours does this decrease? What have you lost from it?

And I'll answer your challenge to my credibility - I respond directly and as clearly as possible. You're still Hillary Clintoning an answer.

 

[GluttonyFang]

http://www.animatedimages.org/data/media/325/animated-telephone-image-0004.gifGonna answer that? Because I'm calling you out.You posted links back to your own quotes, but still have not answered the question. So I'll clarify:How is this negatively impacting you? What standings of yours does this decrease? What have you lost from it?

Sorry, I don't like rewarding people that refuse to read.

 

[Riverside]

So you're thinking to yourself: "but I can't use a lesser ship, I might get ganked myself!". Yes, unilateral disarmament isn't an easy choice, is it? We all want multilateral disarmament, don't we?

Well I suppose that makes sense. So how do we solve this problem then?

"You're in a Cutter? What are you, scared of losing?" If you're in a Cutter with a billion shield boosters you've won the game, no single opponent can kill you quickly enough that you can't escape. I know this because I have one, and I trade in it, safely. It doesn't have an interdictor, it's a running away ship.

"You're in a Corvette? My you must be a PvE badass". If you're in a Corvette your only worthy opponent is another Corvette, because a Cutter or an FDL can just withdraw at leisure, and for anything else it's overkill, so it's only use is for PvE farming (I have one, I explore in it).

"You're in an FDL, do you not have an imagination then?" It's a fun ship to fly & very effective for bounty hunting (it's intended role) but if you see a player in one you just know what kind of player they are. I have one of these too, covered in dust probably.

These ships are deeply uncool to PvP in, they just smack of scaredy cat to me. Interdict me in a Viper or a DBS, please. I'll be impressed at your bravery, it'll give me a laugh, then maybe if you're really, really good I'll die or have time to decide to drop some cargo while you try.

You can solve your own problem (as a community) with a bit of empathy & role play. You can still kill the jerks (plenty of these in every role), you can still take your preening black friday cutter out for a bit of intimidation, until you realise you are cringeing slightly at how much epeen you are showing & put it away again.

This is how you play the game


Alternatively, fly your big ships & stop complaining that people don;t want to play with you.

 

[Karunamon]

Sorry, I don't like rewarding people that refuse to read.

I'll take this in a different direction because those posts you linked aren't making much sense to me either.

Also the assumption that PvP is just about boiling ship up is either pure ignorance or false categorizing.

Huh?!

If you encounter another CMDR, your interaction options are limited to:

1. Talk to them
2. Shoot them
3. Wing up with them

Option 3 removes the "v" from PvP, so it's off topic.

What exactly is PvP about if not blasting the other guy into finely ground dust?

 

[GluttonyFang]

But when you start bothering yourself and getting yourself all breathless and sweaty about what other people do with their time, it's time for people to stop caring what you think. Why is that so hard to understand?

"Because it doesn't bother/concern me, it's not a problem at all."Classic!

 

[Soulstain]

I believe they said previously that its pretty much not going to be fixed. (either its too hard or not on their list)
But yeah, people are morons and use it a lot, combat logging to just avoid the insurance payment is just pitiful and imo people who are so low should just stop playing and go play something else because ED obviously isn't for them.

Why on earth would you care what someone else does who plays in solo mode? How does this in any possible way effect you? Lol. I understand in open but Solo, not an issue. People don't seem to care people that players are flying around in the largest ships in the game with Billions in the bank due to exploits but holy cow, don't let those solo players combat log...lol

 

[GluttonyFang]

I'll take this in a different direction because those posts you linked aren't making much sense to me either.Huh?!If you encounter another CMDR, your interaction options are limited to:1. Talk to them2. Shoot them 3. Wing up with themOption 3 removes the "v" from PvP, so it's off topic.What exactly is PvP about if not blasting the other guy into finely ground dust?

There was a second link...And I suppose I have to spell it out...

Once again I find myself in agreement with you, GF. You gotta stop being so reasonable so I can maintain my contempt for scurvy pirates! Yes, flagging with some algorithm around frequency and consistency would be the only way FD could reasonably go.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Sandro himself has said combat logging, whether it's in Open or Solo, is against the rules. There's playing your way, and then there's cheating. In a multiplayer game with a shared universe, you're never just doing your thing.

I'll admit I sometimes miss the obvious, so I'll just come right out and ask: Please provide a link to these "Rules". I will confess I've never seen them. I did see the EULA, which does state:
"[FONT=&quot]You are not permitted:[/FONT]"[...]
"[FONT=&quot](c) use cheats, automation software, hacks, mods, or any other unauthorized software designed to modify or defeat the purpose or experience of the Game;[/FONT]"
However, "cheats" is not defined within the EULA, and can be considered ambiguous.
Furthermore, following that same letter-of-the law, I would point out this:
"[FONT=&quot]8.1 Without prejudice to any other rights, Frontier may terminate this EULA immediately without notice if you fail to comply with the terms and conditions of this EULA. In the event of termination, all rights granted to you under this EULA shall cease and you must destroy all copies of the Game and all of its component parts (including any Game stored on the hard disk of any device).[/FONT]" This then legally obligates anyone who Frontier terminates this EULA for to destroy ALL COPIES OF THE GAME - which includes your copy, their copies, copies on their servers, and everyone else's copies as well - per the letter of the EULA.

So I still pose the question, where are these "Rules" along with clear definitions of terms therein.

 

[GluttonyFang]

I'll admit I sometimes miss the obvious, so I'll just come right out and ask: Please provide a link to these "Rules". I will confess I've never seen them. I did see the EULA, which does state:"[FONT=&quot]You are not permitted:[/FONT]"[...]"[FONT=&quot](c) use cheats, automation software, hacks, mods, or any other unauthorized software designed to modify or defeat the purpose or experience of the Game;[/FONT]"However, "cheats" is not defined within the EULA, and can be considered ambiguous.Furthermore, following that same letter-of-the law, I would point out this:"[FONT=&quot]8.1 Without prejudice to any other rights, Frontier may terminate this EULA immediately without notice if you fail to comply with the terms and conditions of this EULA. In the event of termination, all rights granted to you under this EULA shall cease and you must destroy all copies of the Game and all of its component parts (including any Game stored on the hard disk of any device).[/FONT]" This then legally obligates anyone who Frontier terminates this EULA for to destroy ALL COPIES OF THE GAME - which includes your copy, their copies, copies on their servers, and everyone else's copies as well - per the letter of the EULA.So I still pose the question, where are these "Rules" along with clear definitions of terms therein.

Let me guess... shadowban is a new word to you in the ED universe, too.

Ugh... when people coming into this debate without the bare minimum coverage of information as to what effect the central topic has on what aspects of the game...It used to make me more irritated, but the more I see it the funnier it gets for me.So...*Chuckles in the background*

 

[S.at]

Saying something isn't an argument doesn't make it so. Really. I simply fail to see the problem. Perhaps it comes from me neither taking the game too seriously nor really giving even the tiniest crap about what other people do in the game.

It's only an issue if you take your gaming too seriously.

"He should be punished - he started playing tennis, then decided he didn't want to play any more, put his racket away and went home." What a ... person who went home. In sport, as in the game, if your opponent takes his ball and goes home, you win. All this nonsense -- and it is utter nonsense -- about penalties and open and solo and gankers and the combined webvomit of thousands of people... all stems from somepeople trying to take a pastime into the real lives of the people they play against. I call bullocks.

UNCLENCH.

Very interesting reflections.

With regard to the first point here, you're dead wrong - gaming is in no way an isolated environment; such things don't exist. The basic demonstration of this point (although it depresses me to have to make it) is that when I, or anyone else, play a game, I (and anyone else) do it at my (or their) pleasure. If the way you play the game displeases me, I won't play with you, regardless of any previous choices that I have made. Suck it up.

For example. If we play chess, we play by the rules. It is the environment. There are hundreds of thousands of combinations, but there are rules, beyond that you can't get out. If for example, someone decides that the pawn moves through three cells, or it will be each time to return on board lost earlier figure the game will turn into nonsense. Yes, it certainly can be fun, but it will be unfair play. Now imagine that we play the same game, fair and square, and you suddenly don't like that you lose, or your opponent wins. You flip the Board and walk away, saying, "I play how I like". No one will play with you after this. But here, I can't choose with whom I play. Developers should ensure that the game is played fair. I think it's logical, isn't it?)

Inasmuch as the developers don't -- like really don't -- see a particular need to address this issue in the way that you want them to, as evidenced by their lack of action on the "issue," I would suggest that the "rules" don't really mean much. Oh well. Strangely, it doesn't stop me enjoying the game in any way. Which suggests that they're not rules then...The most important factor for any game is that people enjoy it. Rules are determined by practice, not principle. The existence of politicians would be intolerable otherwise.

People enjoyed many exploits that no longer exist, Why get them fixed? I hope sooner or later this problem will be solved. And vicious practices also exist, but this does not make them acceptable.

Nonsense - I've never combat logged, don't agree with you in any way, and still only play open. If open is dead, it's not because FD have failed to make the game you want to play.

Open dead,or almost dead for many reasons. The combat log is not the only one.

I'm still worried that there is a large correlation between people who want solo to disappear, combat logging to be "punished" and irrational concerns about where men put their willies.

I'll leave willies question on your conscience)

 

[lifeschool-amiga]

I have only tried to log off once during a destruction moment, and a counter came up on screen and made me wait 15 seconds before I could log off. In that time, I got hammered, so I was very surprised to find that I made it, with 3% hull damage, which I then had to spent a fortune fixing. So given that scenario, I have never even bothered to try logging off in a combat zone since that first try. Some adults are just big kids, and some folks, if they dont know, you cant tell 'em - they just wont have it. Talking about it on here isnt going to change peoples views on how they play the game.

 

[Riverside]

For example. If we play chess, we play by the rules. It is the environment. There are hundreds of thousands of combinations, but there are rules, beyond that you can't get out. If for example, someone decides that the pawn moves through three cells, or it will be each time to return on board lost earlier figure the game will turn into nonsense. Yes, it certainly can be fun, but it will be unfair play. Now imagine that we play the same game, fair and square, and you suddenly don't like that you lose, or your opponent wins. You flip the Board and walk away, saying, "I play how I like". No one will play with you after this. But here, I can't choose with whom I play. Developers should ensure that the game is played fair. I think it's logical, isn't it?)

And if one opponent is suddenly called away or unable to continue temporarily the game is paused, because it is consensual. Force majeure can happen in all walks of life. Combat logging isn't force majeure though, as you rightly say it's tossing the board in the air & storming off.

But how do you separate these in ED for detection purposes?

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I have only tried to log off once during a destruction moment, and a counter came up on screen and made me wait 15 seconds before I could log off. In that time, I got hammered, so I was very surprised to find that I made it, with 3% hull damage, which I then had to spent a fortune fixing. So given that scenario, I have never even bothered to try logging off in a combat zone since that first try.

I did a similar thing, early in the game I deployed hardpoints & my ship shut down. I thought it was a bug or a control setting. That was the day I learned about power priorities

 

[IndigoWyrd]

There was a second link...And I suppose I have to spell it out...

Science has postulated that Cranium is the densest mineral in the universe. To demonstrate I have read this, three times now, you said: "Flagging can work since if a player is disconnecting constantly in the middle of combat with another player present, it's not only probable to assume there is malicious intention, but also evidence for punishment for ruining other players' experience.Eliminating rebuy would make death meaningless, so that's not an option.Also the assumption that PvP is just about boiling ship up is either pure ignorance or false categorizing." Ok, so you state that flagging someone can work to determine someone has combat logged repeatedly. And then you said: "Mostly because this forum has a heavy PvE population, which the issue doesn't even concern most of the users here, not surprised, really." However neither of these responses demonstrate any losses you have suffered from this, unless you're trying to subtly imply that this ruins your experience. But this also implies that your experience is somehow more important that someone else's experience, because your attack of someone else that did not want to be attacked, that resulted in them having to quit out of the game, breaking their immersion, has had their experience ruined to a greater degree.

So clear this up for me - is this "ruined experience" your only loss as a result of this behavior? And does this also mean your experience is more important than someone else's?

So since I read, you are now obligated to reward me, by answering the question that was posed, and stop cheating at forums.

 

[S.at]

And if one opponent is suddenly called away or unable to continue temporarily the game is paused, because it is consensual. Force majeure can happen in all walks of life. Combat logging isn't force majeure though, as you rightly say it's tossing the board in the air & storming off.

But how do you separate these in ED for detection purposes?

If once or twice, or even three, player was forced to leave the session it's not a problem. But if he constantly does it? Dozens of times, and always in battle and always being near death?

How? Some ways was mentioned above