Same old song about cheaters

[Wolf Starslayer]

I'm surprised at the number of people who actually admit to combat logging. It would be helpful if those who do could clarify if they mean menu-logging or a forced disconnect. The former is allowed, the latter is cheating and reportable.

I'm not really surprised it's a toxic response to toxic gameplay. Are the RPK'ers who don't respect others gameplay really surprised that others won't respect theirs ? If anyone's to blame ,I blame FD for allowing open to become a free for all anywhere; if we'd had decent security in the high-sec systems and some form of effective crime and punishment lot of this toxicity could of been avoided.

 

[Comrade Error]

I'm not really surprised it's a toxic response to toxic gameplay. Are the RPK'ers who don't respect others gameplay really surprised that others won't respect theirs ? If anyone's to blame ,I blame FD for allowing open to become a free for all anywhere; if we'd had decent security in the high-sec systems and some form of effective crime and punishment lot of this toxicity could of been avoided.

If we had a good crime and punishment system where you could do other PvP activities effectivly AND not system that weeds out combat loggers then yea it would be fixed.

Combat logging was a thing on Xbox before major griefer groups were and it was just me and a buddy pirating people in our Pythons in Orang, there was just much less of it.

 

[Truesilver]

I'm surprised at the number of people who actually admit to combat logging. It would be helpful if those who do could clarify if they mean menu-logging or a forced disconnect. The former is allowed, the latter is cheating and reportable.

A number of regular contributors to these forums have openly stated that they mean both.

I too find this surprising. I mean, if someone posted to say,

"I consider it utterly unfair that my T-7 should be jumped at a CG by 4 x FdL and me then be RNGineer ganked for lulz ... FDev's c & p system is a joke ...

... so I have therefore installed a helpful hack which prevents my hull and modules going beneath 1%, problem solved, go QQ lulzbunnies! "

I would expect action to be taken against them - and so would they - hence they would never say such a thing.

I can only surmise that said log-posters are either recklessly brave or - rather more likely - accurately calculate that they have absolutely nothing to fear.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Anyone installing "hacks" is a purest lamer of the highest order - and FD should lulzbann them into oblivion

 

[Asp Explorer]

Whats the diff between a lulzyban and a non lulzyban, or, just 'ban'?

Well a ban means you can't play the game. A shadowban means you can still play the game, but know you can't play with anyone else. A lulzban means you can still play the game, and think you can play with everyone else - but will forever be stuck on your own until FD finish giggling and rescind it. I doubt FD actually do such things though

 

[mbcx4jrh]

I'm surprised at the number of people who actually admit to combat logging. It would be helpful if those who do could clarify if they mean menu-logging or a forced disconnect. The former is allowed, the latter is cheating and reportable.

i log through menu all the time ... at least when i get a pvp gimp... i just dont want to play with them..

 

[Quantis Trap]

In game where you can avoid paying the insurances without so much efforts, using combatlog is nonsense

There are a lot of people who throw the cheating word around too lightly in this forum, but if what Marcus says above is possible, it really is cheating. Probably even game modification / hacking.

 

[Quantis Trap]

In game where you can avoid paying the insurances without so much efforts, using combatlog is nonsense

Now this looks like the real cheating if it's possible.

 

[JerryLove]

Maybe they are doing just that. FDev have repeatedly said they don't like to rush in new, incomplete features.

They may not like it; but that appears to be their modus operandi.

Whether we are talking about the fiasco that was full-auto plasma multi-cannons on NPCs, or the introduction of engineers with no module storage, RNG insanity, and the whole mat issue; or Power Play (which it seems like most people still ignore), or the many explosions to an errant docking computer... there's a long history of introducing broken or simply unfinished (one SRV? Really?) features into the game.

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I can only surmise that said log-posters are either recklessly brave or - rather more likely - accurately calculate that they have absolutely nothing to fear.

That does beg a simple economic question.

A ban is lost future sales. That person will not buy further expansions and may well avoid FD products entirely (there's also some percentage for whom it actually means buying another copy to cheat back in... but let's pretend those don't exist because I'd hate to thing FD saw banning players as a revenue source).

So if you start banning for combat logging: how many sales to you lose vs how many do you lose if you don't (I suspect the latter is functionally zero).

Even if you somehow manage to make it non-profitable; how many rage-quit costing you sales vs how many rage quit because combat logging is possible?

There's no real data I am aware of; but I suspect the numbers fall well in favor of allowing combat logging.

And as I keep pointing out: this is also a PvE event, not just a PvP event. Most everyone trying to argue against combat logging is discussing only PvP.

 

[Querty Out]

i log through menu all the time ... at least when i get a pvp gimp... i just dont want to play with them..

You are within the rules doing so but I think you agree that it does not make for good gameplay on either side?

Hopefully the game will evolve and the menu log combat timer will be extended significantly in the future, maybe based on context. This "emergency exit" provided by FDev seems to counterbalance a weak crime and punishment system. The C&P systems is undergoing some tweaks but is still far off from being a deterrent for RPK. If FDev wants to retain PVP in the game (and I think they do) then cranking punishment up to the max is not an option either, at least not in isolation. As touched upon by Comrade Error, a sharp C&P system should be accompanied by incentives and objectives for PVP, encouraging PVP among like minded players.

There is no black-and-white solution for combat logging but game design can go a long way towards reducing the desire for menu combat logging in the first place. Cheaters will be cheaters.

 

[Riverside]

You are within the rules doing so but I think you agree that it does not make for good gameplay on either side?

Hopefully the game will evolve and the menu log combat timer will be extended significantly in the future, maybe based on context. This "emergency exit" provided by FDev seems to counterbalance a weak crime and punishment system. The C&P systems is undergoing some tweaks but is still far off from being a deterrent for RPK. If FDev wants to retain PVP in the game (and I think they do) then cranking punishment up to the max is not an option either, at least not in isolation. As touched upon by Comrade Error, a sharp C&P system should be accompanied by incentives and objectives for PVP, encouraging PVP among like minded players.

There is no black-and-white solution for combat logging but game design can go a long way towards reducing the desire for menu combat logging in the first place. Cheaters will be cheaters.

I broadly agree with your sentiment. I don't feel it's all on Fdev to incentivise PvP though (it would be nice, but not essential), seems to me plenty of players are able to take occasional player interaction (co-op or confrontational) in their stride with PvE, and the opportunity is there for all, if they choose to. Some just don't want to.
As you say, cheaters will be cheaters, and I'd add that fundamentally, griefers will be griefers too. If this problem is solved both extremes will just come up with another excuse to be obnoxious.

You take from the game what you bring to it. If what you bring is toxic, what you take away probably will be too.



If there were a simple option in-game to blacklist players (rather than whitelist with a player group) you'd never have to interact with that person again after your first encounter. Who cares whether they get their just desserts, that player simply can't spoil your fun again, or redeem themselves. And if you just want to annoy other players, well tough.

 

[JerryLove]

If there were a simple option in-game to blacklist players (rather than whitelist with a player group) you'd never have to interact with that person again after your first encounter. Who cares whether they get their just desserts, that player simply can't spoil your fun again, or redeem themselves. And if you just want to annoy other players, well tough.

How well that would work would depend on the size of the playerbase (in specific: the number of people in the group that you will end up black-listing). If it's very large: blacklisting will have little to no effect (it would be like trying to stop malaria by killing mosquitoes one at a time). If it's relatively contained: blacklisting would be extremely effective.

 

[EddyRockSteady]

Gotta love the hypocrisy where a result that takes 30 seconds (logoffski via menu) is perfectly acceptable but a result that takes one second (logoffski via Alt) is frowned upon like the red-headed stepchild........

Both results are the same, whatever the intent, be it insurance or avoiding PvP. Yet people are intent on forcing their playstyle on others, forcing them to be a target drone for others' amusement for no other reason than being the weaker player and an easy target.

Tell you what, screw that. The mechanism is there to counter the shockingly bad gameplay mechanisms/coding that currently exists.

Want to stop CL'ing?

Fix the game.

 

[sutex]

ED .. is/has become pointless, ever expecting it too be a Multi player game, given the woes of instance and the logging going on, to escape fate.

Should of just been released, as a single player game that has P2P support , host/buy your own regional Private severs, could have as many as you could afford on then .. War servers Explorer servers

 

[Querty Out]

Gotta love the hypocrisy where a result that takes 30 seconds (logoffski via menu) is perfectly acceptable but a result that takes one second (logoffski via Alt) is frowned upon like the red-headed stepchild........
....

Menu logging is not perfectly acceptable. It is frowned upon by many players and has been debated many times. FDEV has drawn the line though and have judged that menu logging is allowed and Alt-F4 is cheating. This has come from DBOBE himself, if I'm not mistaken.

I agree though that game improvements could help the situation.

 

[veryinky]

How well that would work would depend on the size of the playerbase (in specific: the number of people in the group that you will end up black-listing). If it's very large: blacklisting will have little to no effect (it would be like trying to stop malaria by killing mosquitoes one at a time). If it's relatively contained: blacklisting would be extremely effective.

They could let players share blacklists, it's worked wonders for adblock.

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FDEV has drawn the line though and have judged that menu logging is allowed and Alt-F4 is cheating. This has come from DBOBE himself, if I'm not mistaken.

Citation please.

 

[Ian Phillips]

It's from Sandro, in a post where he says that logging out via the menu is a valid means of ending the game.

 

[Charles Erika von Hackbeil]

ED .. is/has become pointless, ever expecting it too be a Multi player game, given the woes of instance and the logging going on, to escape fate.

Should of just been released, as a single player game that has P2P support , host/buy your own regional Private severs, could have as many as you could afford on then .. War servers Explorer servers

ED is a fine multiplayer game. Most of the time. But it works better as a coop multiplayer than as PvP.

PvP has the big problem of absolute irrelevance. Most players, who do PvP, can´t be bothered to actually get into the game and pick a role, which then can be understood by everyone else without any further statement.

You know, like staying inside the framework of the game. That would certainly contribute to the quality of open.

 

[veryinky]

It's from Sandro, in a post where he says that logging out via the menu is a valid means of ending the game.

Yeah but Sandro has said a lot of things. I'm pretty sure we're not getting the Krait, "inflatable" player bases never panned out and we're no closer to NPC marines/engineers/navigator ship crew than we were 3 years ago.

 

[Querty Out]

...

Citation please.

The attribution to DBOBE is in the OP. A statement by the executive producer is here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=143287&p=2201167&viewfull=1#post2201167