How 'bout cargo? I lose out on some potential cargo.
Same old song about cheaters
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How 'bout cargo? I lose out on some potential cargo.
In that case: Combat logging isn't really part of the problem. That would be easy to do in a ship I could afford to replace 100 times over.
It's frustrating sometimes, not simply in ED, when someone has problem A so the complain about thing B.
"I don't like sidewinder greifers so do something about combat logging". Imagine ED does somehow stop CLing and it does nothing to stop griefing?
What do I lose if I pull a CMDR out of SC and they pull the plug? Honestly? It's much better for me if I know they're staring at the rebuy screen with their jaw hanging open and tears welling in their eyes wondering how they're going to scrape up enough pennies to get back in their ship, as opposed to simpering off to their desktop risk free.
An asymmetrical matchup is still no justification for CLing. Also, that's just a crutch that's used on these forums and in the Cler's head as a means to normalize their cheating behavior. A CLer is going to pull the plug no matter what ship they're flying if they're interdicted by a player killer. I'd lay money they do it at the slightest sign an NPC is getting the better of them, too.
Killing a CMDR for any reason whatsoever in any ship matchup whatsoever=perfectly legal. CLing under ANY circumstances=filthy cheater.
Is it ok for a sprinter to take performance enhancing drugs because one or more of the other sprinters has longer legs than them?
This is a circular argument, it all has been said before and we go back to the same results.
The attacker(s) benefit from some pretty powerful advantages:
1. Element of surprise, chooses when combat occurs.
2. Superior firepower (particularly when in wings).
3. Woefully insignificant repercussions to an illegal act.
4. Able to easily elude any efforts to be brought to justice.
5. Can easily organize a strike group to carry out their attacks, anti-strike forces can be assembled but due to the FD system, instancing make it a crap shoot as to the opposing parties being present at the same.
What doe the victim have?
1. Pay the re-buy, plus the loss of time/cargo.
2. No viable recourse to revenge/retribution.
3. Official enforcement "response" is weak/non-existent.
4. Protection from future attacks would require "hardening" the target, elements to do this is would not be easy to coordinate (ie: getting other CMNDR's to fly with you whenever you carry cargo). Randomness is a cruel mistress, you would be forced to be ready always, which sounds reasonable, but hard to do every time you play.
These are just off the top of my head, I'm sure others could add more to the arguments.
The combat logging phenomenon shouldn't surprise anybody. This is a normal response to a situation where one party feels powerless to respond to an outside influence.
Because players have no redress recourse available, they resort to whatever methods are available, call it "emergent game play" on their part.
If you remove the cause to CL, you would in all likelihood see a decrease in its use. However, at this time, CL is a symptom resulting from a variety of causes, you need to get rid of the causes.
As far as labeling, "filthy cheater", the other side is "filthy murderer", "habitual criminal", you see where this is going and it won't end nicely.
The last issue is blame, who is to blame here, if there is blame to be attached. Do we blame an unwilling victim who is usually a clean CMNDR, do we blame the attacker, who is usually someone who engages in this behavior on a regular basis?
FD is constantly re-balancing this and that, why don't they attack this issue? Only they know the answer. Other threads have shown a majority of players that are in favor of a balance here.
This is not over.
Much like with the mission stream re: when to expect missions not to be broken, this issue was solved at least for those who can read between the lines, when David Braben said 'this game was not designed as a PvP game' (may be paraphrasing a bit).
They will devote the smallest amount of time to this issue possible, from a PR and development POV. No matter how any of us feel about it.
They will devote the smallest amount of time to this issue possible, from a PR and development POV. No matter how any of us feel about it.
It is most definitely NOT a circular argument my friend.
CLing is cheating. Asymmetrical player killing is permissible. Period. End of discussion. No shades of gray, just stark black and white.
Also, I'm going to call bull on the notion that if we remove "the cause for CL" we'll "likely see a reduction in CLing." Nothing except punishment is going to stop the CLer since they'll make up an excuse to justify their actions under any circumstance that involves the possibility of losing their ship.
I have never logged myself, but I totally understand it. PvP in Elite is something that floats on top of the rest of the game with no influence on anything, and is entirely meaningless. Frankly, it is increasingly an impediment and irritant in the game to those that are not interested in it, as PvE and PvP builds are increasingly diverging.
PvP'ers should be happy enough that combat is balanced around them, rather than the vast majority of the player base, and just interpret a CL as a win.
PvP'ers should be happy enough that combat is balanced around them, rather than the vast majority of the player base, and just interpret a CL as a win.
What would be really interesting here, Jerry, would be for you to give up some of your in-game time so as to go and fly with AA for a few weeks in Eravate, then come back and post to say whether in light of your experiences, your opinion had changed.
I can't tell you it certainly would. I do think it's possible, though.
If performance enhancing drugs never changed the outcome of the race: I don't see why not?
If the drugs (combat logging) have the exact same effect as food (high waking), then sure.
But your metaphor is perhaps to abstract. The drugs must be "combat logging", yes? What's the race?
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I despise griefers.
Getting rid of CLing won't get rid of griefers.
It's like complaining that deer hit cars to often so we are going to punish jwalkers.
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CLing is basically harmless.
Griefing harms players and makes people dislike the game.
I mean: Vibrators are illegal in Texas. That doesn't mean that vibrators are bad or that they *should* be illegal.
Meanwhile: shooting an unarmed person in the back while he runs away with your stereo is legal in Texas. That doesn't mean it's good or that it should be legal.
You mean like all those people who won't stop typing "meep" in general chat?
No? No one does that? Is it because typing "meep" in general chat in punished? Or is it because there's no reason to type "meep" in general chat?
Please tell me which law in the world is never broken by anyone because it's punished? I'll give you a list of things no one does because there's no reason to do it. We'll see whose list is longer.
FD do not care about combat logging. Whatever else they say about it, the proof is in the pudding, which was shown when they overlooked checking that video.
Now, given the fact that PvP is so inconsequential, and the fact that FD have been proven to not care about CLing, why are people still complaining about it?
So what if a ship gets away? Who cares? What difference does it make?
Combat logging isn't the issue here. The constant moaning about CLing is, in reality, just a bunch of players annoyed that ED isn't a single instance game with one open mode only.
Now, given the fact that PvP is so inconsequential, and the fact that FD have been proven to not care about CLing, why are people still complaining about it?
So what if a ship gets away? Who cares? What difference does it make?
Combat logging isn't the issue here. The constant moaning about CLing is, in reality, just a bunch of players annoyed that ED isn't a single instance game with one open mode only.
No, it's like complaining that there are guys who like immortality power trips and then getting rid of their immortality.
Of course removing CLing wouldn't get rid of starter-space griefers ... but I think the pretty much universal view amongst 50+ AA members is that it sure would thin their numbers down.
I still think it's possible that if you did a few weeks on griefer-patrol with AA your opinion might change. Can't guarantee it, of course, but I do think it's possible.
How so? Are you saying that a PvP-designed high-end ship is incapable of high-waking before being destroyed?
Because if yes: That's why there's a need for CLing,
and if no: Then removing CLing won't make griefers mortal.
Meanwhile: Getting rid of CLing would also make more people *vunerable* to greifers.
Meanwhile: Punishments for CLing would catch unlucky innocents.
So let's review what punishing CLers would do.
1) Cost FD money and resources that could be put elsewhere.
2) Punish the innocent.
3) Make more victims of griefers die.
4) Possibly reduce griefing a little bit.
But I have no interest in doing that (or open in general).
Perhaps a few weeks of getting killed by griefers would make you change your opinion on having a reliable escape when that happens?
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The entire system needs addressed.
Combat logging shouldn't be a thing... it's an exploit. A known, over abused, exploit. Plain and simple. I've been interdicted in a vulture by people, they start a fight, and as soon as I'm taking victory, they log. You can't start something and bail because you're not winning, but you will, because there are ZERO consequences in ED for doing it. Does it suck being in open and getting railroaded by gank squads? Yes... but playing solo in open is a choice, that carries a known risk... which brings us to the next point...
Griefers. Griefing should merit consequences. Heavy, dire, consequences. Taking a conda out to pop sideys trying to figure the game out should carry a heavy fine or large risk of death by form of NPC, or a 'bounty till death' of sorts... 'something' that makes griefers pay for farming new people and ships WAY below class exclusively. Same with suicideys... intentionally ramming docking players should merit a ban... flat out. But alas... the griefing persists.
As far as gank squads in general, there needs to be some line of balance. My suggestion would be to fractionalize rebuy cost based on what/who popped you. If you're in a non hostile cobra and get destroyed by a 4 man vette gank squad, you're rebuy should be reduced by a large percentage based on the inability to win the scenario. Period. Standard Rebuy - (opponent ship class x squad size) = Normalized Rebuy.
Combat logging shouldn't be a thing... it's an exploit. A known, over abused, exploit. Plain and simple. I've been interdicted in a vulture by people, they start a fight, and as soon as I'm taking victory, they log. You can't start something and bail because you're not winning, but you will, because there are ZERO consequences in ED for doing it. Does it suck being in open and getting railroaded by gank squads? Yes... but playing solo in open is a choice, that carries a known risk... which brings us to the next point...
Griefers. Griefing should merit consequences. Heavy, dire, consequences. Taking a conda out to pop sideys trying to figure the game out should carry a heavy fine or large risk of death by form of NPC, or a 'bounty till death' of sorts... 'something' that makes griefers pay for farming new people and ships WAY below class exclusively. Same with suicideys... intentionally ramming docking players should merit a ban... flat out. But alas... the griefing persists.
As far as gank squads in general, there needs to be some line of balance. My suggestion would be to fractionalize rebuy cost based on what/who popped you. If you're in a non hostile cobra and get destroyed by a 4 man vette gank squad, you're rebuy should be reduced by a large percentage based on the inability to win the scenario. Period. Standard Rebuy - (opponent ship class x squad size) = Normalized Rebuy.
If instead of clogging, they had menu logged (not an exploit), or high waked (not an exploit), or simply run in realspace and been faster (not an exploit): how would your game experience have been better?
Then let's fix crime-and-punishment.
I got interdicted by a FDL once. When I started winning, he turned and boosted away. I couldn't catch him.
Just like your story, only no exploit. Same experience. Same end effect.
So tell me again: what do you hope to accomplish by spending precious dev time on banning both the guilty and the unlucky from CLing?
It's not against the TOS.
This is one of that parts I don't understand about the anti-CL crowd.
First they claim that they are against CLing because it's against the ToS; but then they are against something that's in ToS.
I'm beginning to wonder how many are actually griefers themselves upset that their victims have an effective escape.
Although it's fiendishly difficult, it is by definition sometimes possible to kill a seal-clubber PvP ship that wishes to escape. I don't wish to give away some wing tactics here but I say, 'by definition', because the Eravate loggers only log when they have no choice - basically it's a tribute to my former buddies in Adle's Armada, but they do manage to get these bottom-feeders sometimes into a position whereby they have to log or die. That is the only circumstance in which they log - so each log, of which in the case of the dirty half dozen there have been many, means an occasion when the seal clubber otherwise would have died.
Certainly glad you weren't around for the Revolutionary War, I can just see it now: Hey you guys, hiding behind the rocks and trees - you're cheating, knock it off! When it's about survival there is no cheating, it becomes whatever it takes! I bet you'd complain if a guy brought a gun to a knife fight or turned and ran even. Besides, who made you the arbiter of cheating? Do you get to make the rules? People don't want to be destroyed by you then too bad for you. Maybe if you refund them the money they spent on the game they'll go play somewhere else and you can have this "game" all to yourself! IT'S A GAME! It's not affecting your health or well being if someone chooses not to allow you to destroy them by any means possible. Grow up.
FD make the rules.. and one of the rules they made was that combat logging was not allowed.. don't really understand how that's so difficult to grasp tbh..
Right, and the Speed Limit signs all tell you the rules but it requires someone to catch you and issue you a ticket and obviously everyone gets caught. Besides, not allowed should be followed by, if you insist on it here's your money back, go play elsewhere because I don't recall reading rules of play before purchase. Although since I play solo it's not really an issue for me, i just find it amusing.
You may not have read the rules.. but you will have accepted them before installing..
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