Scaled reduction of G1 to G5 engineering on weapons, shields and powerplants

[Haradrim]

Engineering really needs a lookover. It does not fit the feel of the game to just +% to your weapons or whatever with no downsides. It feels gross here, more like a generic MMO than a simulator-esque idea

 

[Hydrino]

Problem:

Engineering makes the game unbalanced and severely affects a lot of related parts of the game in a negative way. Examples:

Guardian modules:

Cannot be engineered, but advantages are eclipsed by G1 > G5 engineering. So they are next to useless except for real edge cases. Outcome: people don't use them bar the FSD booster.

Security:

I can tank security easily, meaning I can ignore security levels. I can kill anything with impunity even in High security systems and brush off ATR- which is wrong. Outcome: engineering allows ships that can break crime and punishment, with knock on effects for the BGS.

Tech broker modules:

Can't be engineered, but advantages again eclipsed by G1 > G5 on regular weapons. Outcome: no-one uses them.

Long range lasers allowing people to snipe from long ranges, making fights silly.

Game balance between Horizons and non-Horizons (Core) players- G5 engineering splits the playerbase with one half being impossibly powerful, while the other weak in comparison. From what is listed stat wise 50% of players have Horizons.

Engineering takes away hard choices- it removes considerations on power, heat and other subtle nuances ships had. Engineering does have a place but it should not make everything viable all of the time.

Suggestion:

What I suggest is that engineering is rebalanced for offensive, defensive and powerplant modules, while engine and range based engineering is kept. Lightweight modifications on everything are kept as they are (these would be balanced via powerplant output).

What I'd love to see is an almost reversal between the applied experimental effect and the G1 to G5 effects, in that the experimental provides the 'meat' of the engineering perk, and the G1 - G5 provides an additional boost.

Weapon G5 effects for increased power, range, efficiency are scaled back to between G1 to G2 levels maximum.

All shield, shield cell banks, shield booster effects are drastically reduced down to G1 levels.

Hull reinforcement packages and armour are reduced down to G2 max.

Powerplant overcharging is dialed back to G1 max. The Guardian powerplant + distributor should be seen as a better single upgrade while engineering + experimental provides a greater spectrum of tuning. Outcome: you can't have ships with everything running- meaning more design choices are required. It will also make low power shields more important, as well as making G1 to G4 engineering valuable (i.e. you are engineering for a role and not mindlessly going G5 on everything).

Make power saving, heat reduction more important: in a power starved engineering 'world' these effects will be enablers.

Legacy modules:

These are kept until destruction, where you then have to craft using the new rules. So people far away from anyone exploring won't be affected until a star or high G planet kills them.

Considerations:

Outside C + P NPCs and ATR, 'new style' combat zones might need to have NPCs dialled back slightly (since they are considered 'bullet sponges')

I'm still going through trying to unpick the power creep mess Elite Dangerous is in- how this would affect PvP, Thargoid combat etc so I've missed out loads of edge case problems and consequences (such as 'meta' builds).

Can't we just get rid of engineering as it is and buy variants of modules from different Corporations, Factions and the like in the game, with easier balancing then? Strengthen the lore and make game companies and local custom shops more prominent in the game? Like enriching that background lore?

Make any modifiers that FD use for engineers out in the open and the maths correct (some of the % modifier numbers aren't correct.)

There are some modules with engineering variants that are like "why"?

So I never liked this concept that only one person in the galaxy could modify lasers or whatever super-common commodity type modules everyone sells. It makes no sense with 5 Trillion humans in the galaxy (or whatever the number). The knowledge of mods would spread and either be custom work most workshops could do or adopted by manufacturers and sold by them.

Engineers, apologies to DB, not enjoyable, don't make any sense, been poorly implemented from the start. Back when folks were asking about module variants one Dev replied something was inthe works but they couldn't comment. And Engineers was the result. FD should have run the design doc through the DDF process. But even then it's possible too many would have agreed just like idiotic, non-fun, pointless make me wait in my solo and group instances, ship transfer times.

 

[Hydrino]

i don't think "collect insane quantities of items "a" through "z" to give a straight boost to your ship. oh, btw, items "x" and "y" are bugged and don't spawn, so we bring you a material trader. have fun collecting" can be dumbed down very much.

for the record, that was intended to be irony. i agree, modules aren't the problem. bat crazy modifiers are.

the module system is just fine, as is the ship model (heat/power/weight/etc). it's the ridiculous values that render that model moot to boot, and then actually induce less variation because there are obvious choices for most modules. the artificial fragmentation only tries to hide this fact without any success.

the proliferation of collectibles, though, is just as lame as it can be. and here is where i can see where gp comes from, namely making the mess at least more accessible. my approach would be selling those modifications at any station for a few credits. this would enable players to experiment and see the true picture. if then the game has still any merit (which i think it does) then no doubt they would go about performing all these "activities" they're expected to be performing just for fun.

engineers caters to hoarders, completionists and spreadsheet lovers, that's the whole mystery. which would be fine if it didn't spoil a central aspect of the game, namely ship balance and compromise (which is what op is trying to address).

i say get rid of them. and the modules. just reset them all overnight, without warning, send complaints to /dev/null (i think frontier has that part automated already) or hand out cobra 4s. end of story. once you get used to your old drives and jump ranges again you'll see the game was much more fun before. before engineers complicated everything to add actually nothing of substance, i mean.

This, for me at least.
Ref my own post about just straight up module buying tied to game lore/companies.

Also, if FD keep materials, just trade them as commodities. Like iron is iron, why is there a commodity market and then "material traders".

Somewhere along the way someone wandered off the path with ED design post Kickstarter and post release and post DDF review of design concepts. I hope they finally got back on track, the year of free updates was pretty good, hope Odyssey brings more of that and less weird disconnected stuff like engineers and power play.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Can't we just get rid of engineering as it is and buy variants of modules from different Corporations, Factions and the like in the game, with easier balancing then? Strengthen the lore and make game companies and local custom shops more prominent in the game? Like enriching that background lore?

Make any modifiers that FD use for engineers out in the open and the maths correct (some of the % modifier numbers aren't correct.)

There are some modules with engineering variants that are like "why"?

So I never liked this concept that only one person in the galaxy could modify lasers or whatever super-common commodity type modules everyone sells. It makes no sense with 5 Trillion humans in the galaxy (or whatever the number). The knowledge of mods would spread and either be custom work most workshops could do or adopted by manufacturers and sold by them.

Engineers, apologies to DB, not enjoyable, don't make any sense, been poorly implemented from the start. Back when folks were asking about module variants one Dev replied something was inthe works but they couldn't comment. And Engineers was the result. FD should have run the design doc through the DDF process. But even then it's possible too many would have agreed just like idiotic, non-fun, pointless make me wait in my solo and group instances, ship transfer times.

An extreme idea, but I like it- it could be that you come across abandoned modules in places, or have to get allied / rank up to get them.

 

[RamirezKurita]

So I never liked this concept that only one person in the galaxy could modify lasers or whatever super-common commodity type modules everyone sells. It makes no sense with 5 Trillion humans in the galaxy (or whatever the number). The knowledge of mods would spread and either be custom work most workshops could do or adopted by manufacturers and sold by them.

Engineers, apologies to DB, not enjoyable, don't make any sense, been poorly implemented from the start. Back when folks were asking about module variants one Dev replied something was inthe works but they couldn't comment. And Engineers was the result. FD should have run the design doc through the DDF process. But even then it's possible too many would have agreed just like idiotic, non-fun, pointless make me wait in my solo and group instances, ship transfer times.

Well, engineers made a lot more sense in their original implementation, before FD started retconning them into celebrities that readily perform their modifications remotely across the entire galaxy. The engineers are meant to represent the literal "one in a trillion" mega geniuses that actually have the knowledge and equipment to go beyond even the finest works of the main manufacturers.

To use a car analogy, buying A-rated stuff is like buying a Bugatti Chiron. You pay out the eyeballs for it, and if you take it to your local hotshot car mechanic and ask them to improve it then they'll just make it worse as it is already as good as it can be without some serious knowledge of how it works. Even if you took it back to Bugatti and asked their engineers to eke out a bit more power from the engine, they'll probably give you a response along the lines of "if we could make the engine better, it would leave our factory better". If you want to actually improve the car's performance you would have to take it beyond normal mechanics, beyond normal tweaking workshops and instead you would be looking for world-leading experts for even the simplest improvement.

In short, A-rated stuff is already tweaked, optimised and improved as much as any "normal" person is capable of.

Also, I still find the idea of remote workshops to be incredibly dumb. Not only does this mean that anywhere with outfitting facilities also comes with all the high-tech gizmos that engineers need to analyse components and make their modifications, but the idea of a station giving anonymous access (remember that the engineers are secretive and so wouldn't allow an untrusted 3rd party to learn their identity) to a high-tech workshop without any kind of security surveillance or logs being kept (if you are going to perform galaxy-leading developmental work, you wouldn't want a 3rd party spying on you and potentially stealing your designs).