Scared of the first wave of newbies on the game

[Joe Spivey]

elite is a very different game from most MMO's, enough that, like EVE, it will likely be a little jarring for new players first into it.

this is a formal request to FD to NOT EVER CAVE IN, yes if something proves unavoidable and a terminal game killer thats complained about, change it, but only after its proven to continue for months with no discernable player options to avoid.

because seriously, people WILL whine for nerfs "balances" and outright changes to the game to be in their favor, and they will likely outnumber the players from beta or the vets from previous elites.

just hoping FD stays with THEIR vision of the game, and doesnt cave. I already suffered through whiners killing SWG for me with "enhancements", WoW continues down the road of catering to the lowest common denominator, and EVE recently announced their major design decisions will be coming from a 30 minute test of players who never touched EVE and basing it on what they THINK they game should be like (WASD controls are now in EVE because dumbdumbs kept tryign to move with them)

i just dont want Elite to be another game that tries to cater to everyone but itself and dies


/endrant im tired, allergy medication, gonna go sleep, will come back and proofread when i can actually see the sentences

I posted this a while ago when everyone was whining about something or other... Solo Mode I think (not sure what iteration). But i think it fits here too. (Apologies to RK)

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;

If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;

If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with wornout tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;

If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'

If you can talk with crowdfunders and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings - nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;

If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run -
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll have a kickass game my son!

 

[SuperGhostMaster]

Wow, most probably a trololol but lets address some of the points.

Yes the 'masses', what a fantastic gaming experience they have created. Endless AAA titles that are just clones of the previous, like Hollywood churning out the same old hackneyed rubbish over and over again. In fact, the only exciting gaming these days are in the indie scene that has real innovative projects, everyone else, like yourself, are more interested in money and money alone.

Not sure what leads you to think my only interest is money. I'm interested in good gaming. If there's any interest in money, I'd say it's with the self-entitled snobs who keep demanding no one change their precious gem from anything other than what they wanted when they donated to KS, as though they represent some kind of authority.

Clearly, you haven't played recent games. Not all popular titles are AAA and not all are clones of another. Of course, I could make the argument that even Elite is a clone.....

Let the masses have their dire endless iterations of Asassins Creed and COD. The lack of imagination was the same reason when Elite was first created some publishers didn't understand it, thought it was too 'niche', that it wouldn't sell. The fact is the innovation and uniqueness of the game, as well as it's technical brilliance and great gameplay, raised the bar for all games mainly BECAUSE they didn't pander to the masses at that time.

This is an embellished and exaggerated statement at best. Elite in it's day may have been innovative, but plenty of innovations have come since. In fact, without MANY of those innovations, ED wouldn't exist in it's current state.

Also, I don't play AC or COD. Don't insult me. I'll see you on the Battlefield.

To complain the game is 'niche' is to fail to understand how the original game rose to such heights. It was because of its difficulty, it's unwavering commitment to pushing bounderies and a vision way beyond the pile of effluent that polluted gaming then, as it does now.

Leaving out features isn't pushing boundaries. And I'm not saying ED isn't cool. I'm just saying it's missing a LOT and that doesn't mean it has to copy every MMO. Read on.

I don't want players who's expectations are so contrived that if it doesn't fit into a set genre idea; or if they can't work out the game in 5 minutes they whine on the forums. These players would never support this game in the long run anyhow. The mechanics of the current game are way, way beyond the original games. The p2p multiplayer which enables a us to play with out needing subs is incredible. The P2P instancing and lack of guild/alliances also stops idiots like Goons dominating and ruining the game like in Eve. The vast scale is un-paralleled in gaming and allows everyone freedom without being hemmed in by online bully boys.

This big, steamy load of keeps getting thrown out every time someone talks about adding new features. FOR THE LAST FREAKING TIME: WE DON'T WANT A COPY-CAT MMO. WE DON'T NEED THE GAME TO FIT A NICHE.

We are simply asking for the fork and knife that is less than complimentary with our steak so we don't have to eat with our hands.

And no one cares what gamers you "want". Welcome to the 21st century, my friend. Welcome to gaming today. You want to game? Then bring your A-game. You want to game? Then get ready to put up with the whiners, the children, the losers, the bragging winners and the griefers.

You're the one who bought into this - you bought into GAMING. Can't take the heat? Go play the original. You want your game to exist in today's gaming environment and yet be completely free of subjection to today's gaming standards - it's a pipe dream.

You tout your superiority complex like it's a badge worthy of some kind of respect - how about respect for TODAY'S GAMER? I have yet to see any of that on this forum.

And here you are, another example of mediocrity. Give the masses the sweet pill, the sugar, the easy to consume. Do it or fail is your message. Well I refuse to accept this depressing and cynical assumption. Elite was, is, and will be unique, difficult, vast, and challenging. Keeping to a vision in a gaming scene where people are blinkered into AAA style games is a worthy goal. So few games make that brave leap. Stand fast brothers, let us not allow Elite to fall into the hands of the gaming plebs.

There is NOTHING stopping the game from being unique, vast or challenging. There are NO features of a *mildly social* game that would prevent this, either.

I love your attempt at trying to make this black and white, the old way or the highway, but it's simply NOT that simple. There are many, many features missing to make this game *competitive* and *outstanding* against the masses to which it is trying so hard to snub it's nose.

The unfortunate thing is it doesn't have to cater to anyone to have some features to make it approachable by everyone. But your ignorant stance that the game *should* snub it's nose to anyone who dare not want it to be a soul-less remake of the original, anyone who requests a feature that the KS backers don't approve of, *is your own* ageism against yourself - you're putting yourself in a corner. You're saying, "Yes, I am perfectly okay with being stubborn, against change, blind to innovation, all while claiming it makes me original".

Well, I hope for your own sake you don't get your way. Because if you do, you actually won't - the game will have a bunch of non-gamers and barely any real players and die quickly. That's not what I'd like to see happen.

 

[Boxcar Jones]

You tout your superiority complex like it's a badge worthy of some kind of respect - how about respect for TODAY'S GAMER? I have yet to see any of that on this forum.

Sadly, I got my fill of "TODAY'S GAMERS" during my visit to a bizzaro planet named Archeage!

 

[Asp Explorer]

Well, I hope for your own sake you don't get your way. Because if you do, you actually won't - the game will have a bunch of non-gamers and barely any real players and die quickly. That's not what I'd like to see happen.

Out of interest, could we please have your definition of a "non-gamer" and a "real player?"

People playing Elite, which is a game, would seem to make them gamers. As they are real people, playing the game, that would seem to make them real players.

 

[rudidev08]

just hoping FD stays with THEIR vision of the game, and doesnt cave

Amen to that.

 

[darkcyd]

Firstly I never argued it isn't niche. I just disagreed that this was a negative.

Secondly a niche market is definable and not subjective.

Thirdly it's not finished yet, Eve wasn't finished (and still isn't) on launch. I've been there, aspects such as comms, grouping and content will be improved. There will not be guilds or alliances and I think this is a good thing.

My original post was targeted at someone else not sure why you pitched in. His post made little sense a little like your inaccurate post. Please read before replying next time and make more effort to clarify your argument, as it makes little sense at the moment.

Oki fanboi. Middle ground unfound. You seem to have a hard time comprehending anything anybody says. Perhaps this is not the problem with the person saying something. Defending anything with religious fervor has always been marked by discarding or marginalizing evidence to the contrary. I see this as exactly where you are at.

 

[Milky82]

I suppose if it's too difficult for some, they can always play DCS A10 to relax

 

[gamecat]

@SuperGhostMaster

I'm not replying to the thread as it's too long.

Let me sum up some things for you.

There are very few games I haven't played from Arma 3 (Dayz, Breakpoint, Altis Life) and mods to Civ Games, Indy titles, COD and BF (all iterations), hard core sims like Rise of Flight, IL2 and DCS, MMO's such as Wow, Eve, Guild Wars etc.... Your comment about 21st century gaming just isn't true. Griefing, whiners etc I rarely see online as either I mute them in game or I just won't play some games anymore such as Eve. They tend to only pop up in forums.

You seem to think I want a some kind of feature stripped ED, I have no idea where you got that from. I think there are many improvements that are needed, a good tutorial, better grouping and comms, more meaningful faction interactions and a heap more coop play. I do NOT want to see guilds and alliances as they do not suit this kind of game. They will create restrictions for other players.

You never specified what features would improve the game, you just used vitriolic assumptions about the intentions of those people who want to protect the core gameplay that has been developed. People fear a dumbing down to appease larger markets. It's not about less features the worry is about game balance, such as interdiction frequency, or NPC difficulty or nerfing pirates so it's not a viable career path.

You've consistently mis-interpreted the 'we need to keep the game challenging' argument with some kind of old fart reactionary argument. This simply isn't true, you really need to read the posts more carefully. It's not about new players per se , it's about new players who complain the game is too hard or opaque because they 'can't land' or 'can't make money'etc... They then say the game is broken leading to endless threads of tiresome well trod paths.

The worry is that the game could be nurfed to be lowest common denominator friendly, which none of us want.

I'm all up for more features, a user friendly navigation, tutorial, better comms and group/coop etc..... I'm not up for dumbing down the experience to pull in a few quid from more casual players. I do welcome any new players and believe many of us want the core gameplay difficulty to reflect ED's heritage, which can't be bad thing.

 

[Alric]

At the end of the 90s I ran out of space games that I wanted to play and found my way in to Everquest. MMORPGs just beginning the transition to being more mainstream - but at that time it was a different audience from today. It was a successful game and a good one but like all games it had its problems. Unfortunately, it also had "the vision". The Vision (tm) which started as such a good thing was a hated term within a year or so, an excuse for not changing things which were clearly wrong. It led many player to leave the game never to return. As the dominant game in the genre at the time it also fuelled the idea that devs should listen to the player base and give them what they wanted.. not what was in some vision from before the game started. We all know where that led.

TL;DR be careful what you wish for. Nobody is right every time and nobody can see everything that will happen in a vast and complex game.

 

[jpaulwilson1982]

I think that like anything else in life, moderation is key. Frontier can't be completely opposed to change or listening to fans anymore than it can take every opinion to heart and make changes in an attempt make everybody happy. The Frontier team should keep an open mind and implement changes that improve upon the original concept of the game without selling itself out like, say, Civilization 5. They completely embraced the way game companies today use updates and expansions to sell a game in pieces over 2 years and they are constantly changing the fundamental rules of the game, like what effects each World Wonder has, what effects each city building causes, the way happiness or social policies work, etc. It's a very fine line to walk which we should all respect since Frontier has shown that it is willing to try to walk that line without selling out to every, single opinion or trying to rip off fans with "expansions". And, yes, I know Elite will have expansions, but Frontier has made it clear what will be in the final product and what they intend to release as expansions to the experience, as opposed to Destiny developer Bungie who blatantly lies to everyone and tries to make complainers happy by implementing everyone's opinion. Also, we can't allow ourselves to believe that only the opinions of Kickstarter donors or long-time fans or new fans are the only ones that matter. New fans can provide a new perspective and offer ideas that improve the gaming experience. Veterans can help ensure that Elite doesn't deviate too far from its original play style and principles. It worries me, though, that people are already at each others throats over docking... I mean, as long as it is a consistent, repeatable process then I don't see the problem. If I had to use calculus and personally solve equations based on real Newtonian physics to dock each time, then I'd certainly see a problem. But, I also don't see what's wrong with any type of automatic docking, either, especially if it's an optional thing.

Anyways, the guy that masterminded this game seems to have his head on straight. I'm sure he won't bow to the whims of players who simply want an easy game so they feel like they're the best when they're not, just as I'm sure he won't listen to only the opinions of donors or veterans. And I hope I'm right because I'm so tired of buying games with great concepts and potential only to be ruined by greed and pandering to baseless complaints.

Take care and happy holidays!

 

[LunarJetman]

This game is not difficult in any way, it's not complex, it's not sophisticated. The only reason I could see why new players could struggle with it is obtuse design and the terrible default Mouse and Keyboard controls. A decent tutorial and game design that isn't from decades ago will do the trick.

 

[Cosmos]

If anything I'd like more complexity, but no, we don't want the game dumbed down.

 

[atlas974]

Today's gamers, Old day's gamers, in the end we must all understand this: frustration is part of the self confidence earning in every day life and it apply here in ED!
View attachment 3826
New players will have a blast, then they will struggle, some of them will loose faith and come here to rant, the others will keep going and go trough their problems and become better and come here to say that's it's ok "you need to practice more".

 

[gamecat]

This game is not difficult in any way, it's not complex, it's not sophisticated. The only reason I could see why new players could struggle with it is obtuse design and the terrible default Mouse and Keyboard controls. A decent tutorial and game design that isn't from decades ago will do the trick.

Amazing, why do you people persist? Don't like the game then bugg*r off.

You must be a very lonely trololol....

 

[Zephyr]

This game is not difficult in any way, it's not complex, it's not sophisticated. The only reason I could see why new players could struggle with it is obtuse design and the terrible default Mouse and Keyboard controls. A decent tutorial and game design that isn't from decades ago will do the trick.

I have to agree. The game isn't difficult, the obfuscated controls and lack of a half-decent tutorial is a great way to give the illusion of complexity, but once you actually know the controls, the game is overwhelmingly simplistic. There's the potential for depth and complexity, but it really just isn't there. I'm honestly surprised so many people actually compare the learning curve of this game to Eve. This game barely has a learning curve. A 5 minute tutorial explaining the controls and basic flight is all you'd need to have a complete understanding of the game.

 

[Hethwill_Khan]

There is no reason to reduce the challenge ANY game requires. Fun and challenge are the definition qualities of the word game.

Now, as a buyers player you may decide that the game is not fun. Or you may decide is not challenging.

When you combine both, assuming that - you are not having fun because of the challenge.

Herein lies the trap for a game developer and the balance. OP is too strict and sterile, but others are also sterile in their openness defense of change.

What does change mean ? To make it more fun while retaining the challenge ? Being less of a challenge and thus touching the fun threshold ?

It is hard to balance this.

For every goon that cries "not fun" at every death there will be a new comer sailing into dock and acquiring a Cobra.

Evolution of the game is inevitable.

 

[SuperGhostMaster]

@SuperGhostMaster

I'm not replying to the thread as it's too long.

Let me sum up some things for you.

There are very few games I haven't played from Arma 3 (Dayz, Breakpoint, Altis Life) and mods to Civ Games, Indy titles, COD and BF (all iterations), hard core sims like Rise of Flight, IL2 and DCS, MMO's such as Wow, Eve, Guild Wars etc.... Your comment about 21st century gaming just isn't true. Griefing, whiners etc I rarely see online as either I mute them in game or I just won't play some games anymore such as Eve. They tend to only pop up in forums.

You seem to think I want a some kind of feature stripped ED, I have no idea where you got that from. I think there are many improvements that are needed, a good tutorial, better grouping and comms, more meaningful faction interactions and a heap more coop play. I do NOT want to see guilds and alliances as they do not suit this kind of game. They will create restrictions for other players.

1) I mute them, too. 'Nuff said.

2) I agree 100%; these are the features I want, however disagree that giving the OPTION of JOINING an OPTIONAL faction would ruin gameplay.

3) The majority of people on this forum talking down changes basically argue this point: "I like the game how it is, it's almost just like it was in 1984 but with better graphics so leave it alone because that's what I paid for, so screw everyone else. If you think differently, then obviously you didn't play the original Elite and therefore your opinion doesn't count, your input is irrelevant and you don't know what you're talking about." So, yeah, I made the assumption that your criticisms leaned in that direction.


All I want is this: give the old timers what they already have and give the REST OF THE GAMING WORLD what they want such as a few modern grouping and communications features. These features will NOT ruin YOUR game as long as YOU don't use them. It's really that simple.

What I keep running into on this forum is a stark ignorance of what features modern multiplayer games actually have - people literally AFRAID of adding features they have literally never even seen because they really haven't played a game since the last Elite. It's just silly.

This isn't even an opinion - it's a fact that there are plenty of features that could be added without taking away from the stripped-down game that this currently is. You couldn't really take much more away and still call this a game, much less multiplayer.

 

[Sabine Kado]

If you aren't happy with the way the game is put together, do like I did when I was younger. Get a cardboard box, cut out holes for windows and pretend it's a spaceship. I could make it do whatever I wanted. No one ever needed to nerf my box. Except for rain kinda nerfed it I guess........

 

[Oppenheimer]

If you aren't happy with the way the game is put together, do like I did when I was younger. Get a cardboard box, cut out holes for windows and pretend it's a spaceship. I could make it do whatever I wanted. No one ever needed to nerf my box. Except for rain kinda nerfed it I guess........

cardboard box is a very economical solution.
not only that but it comes with all features advertised.

 

[Dukeajuke]

Seeing that there is an offline mode that players can switch to at anytime, I doubt there will be a need for any nerfs.. It's absolutely that players that play offline with little risk and can then transfer all their wealth and ships to the online world when ever they choose. And why any players would want this I have no idea...