Ya ok....I don't see a problem with this...we are not talking about fighter jets here..these ships are larger than skyscrapers.
SCBs boil my blood.
- Thread starter CMDR Hagglebeard
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Ya ok....I don't see a problem with this...we are not talking about fighter jets here..these ships are larger than skyscrapers.
Seriously? In what FPS can you survive 180 seconds of sustained fire?
You are not making very good arguments now.
And even then, if the only way to achieve ''Non-FPS'' times to death is by using SCB's and the goal of the balancing is to achieve ''Non-FPS'' times to death, that is also problematic.
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I wasn't trying to because nerfing chaff and heat sinks are as ridiculous as nerfing the shields systems...any of them
I like Banks. Then again, I like long, hard fights. Put me in the camp that thinks a fight against CMDRs shouldn't last 15 seconds, which is how long it currently would take to KO shields without banks to recharge them vs Rails, C4 PA's, 2x or 3x beams, etc. If that's what you guys think makes for exciting PvP, you can keep that garbage.
If you're going to advocate taking away boosters, then you have to simultaneously advocate the removal or heavy nerfing of rails, PA's and beams either by making them outrageously expensive to power or by halving their damage output. Then armor has to receive a huge buff of maybe 150% above current values while providing at least 50% of that armor to cover modules. Sorry, guys, but CMDR encounters shouldn't be as rapid as NPC encounters. Taking away SCB's without a huge array of additional changes is what they would become. Get out-turned once and you may insta-lose a fight and millions of credits in ship insurance costs that could take you days or weeks to farm back depending on ship cost and the time you have available to play? Get the hell out of my face with that. Keep them long and tactical. However that happens (either with Banks or a restructuring of weapons damage, armor, etc), battles need to at least be a few minutes as pilot skills and ship styles dictate them. Mismatches (like a Python vs a T7) notwithstanding.
Let me see some solutions that address all of the above before I see more advocating for Banks removal.
If you're going to advocate taking away boosters, then you have to simultaneously advocate the removal or heavy nerfing of rails, PA's and beams either by making them outrageously expensive to power or by halving their damage output. Then armor has to receive a huge buff of maybe 150% above current values while providing at least 50% of that armor to cover modules. Sorry, guys, but CMDR encounters shouldn't be as rapid as NPC encounters. Taking away SCB's without a huge array of additional changes is what they would become. Get out-turned once and you may insta-lose a fight and millions of credits in ship insurance costs that could take you days or weeks to farm back depending on ship cost and the time you have available to play? Get the hell out of my face with that. Keep them long and tactical. However that happens (either with Banks or a restructuring of weapons damage, armor, etc), battles need to at least be a few minutes as pilot skills and ship styles dictate them. Mismatches (like a Python vs a T7) notwithstanding.
Let me see some solutions that address all of the above before I see more advocating for Banks removal.
My point is this in not an FPS were if you die a bazzilion times there is no consequence..8 million for 3 minutes of fight? Really? It takes about 1.5 to 2 hrs for top level players to make that money...for some it take days....I want you to have to work at killing my ship..work really,really, really hard at it...just like i worked...really, really, really hard at getting it. If you are not willing to do the work getting or killing it....then as a previous poster said..that's your problem and only your problem..not mine.
You're right that nerfing chaff and heat sinks would be ridiculous.
SCBs shouldn't be nerfed either, they should be disposed of entirely, or at least taken from pilots who get past "Novice" rank. Newer players do need a bit of a crutch to help them after all.
+1 on that.
Since the Sorbago war I haven't fought with SCB's, and I just don't see this happening. Fights last for a long time, even without SCB's. Actually, I would claim the contrary: the SCB meta requires ridicilous amounts of burst damage: You need to instantly bring down their shields by focus fire and then kill them, because if you don't, you're going to have to fight through 3 shields instead of one. Things might be different in large ship 1v1 battles, not sure: I don't have very much experience with that environment, but I don't get the impression that this is the case from what I've seen.
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Yes, and this is achieved with the long (~180 seconds for constant fire from ship of equal firepower) killing times, making escape easy. I don't see the problem here.
Once again, if what you say only is achieved by fitting SCB's, that would be very problematic, since this would be a quality of the ships themselves.
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^
Hah, definitely going to have to agree with this post. Something I've observed consistently, the longer TTKs get in a game, the more people you get who say TTKs are too short.
Honestly, most ships in ED are plenty tanky as is. Generally if you want to get out of dodge, there's not much an opponent can do to stop you unless you're pretty badly mass locked.
And if the people here really do think that we need over 12 times as much HP as we have now, why not increase base HP instead of introducing must-have modules that massively inflate your HP pool?
Exactly....outside looking in..
Okay..it has been fun chatting with you guys....
If your feathers got ruffled go get a brush...everything will be fine....
See you all in the black CMDR's.
You don't see a problem that there's an item which takes up a single slot, which increases your effective HP by 136%. Really? You don't see a problem with one item being worth more to a combat ship than any single thing else? If you could put this on a weapon slot too people would. If a Shield booster increased your shield amount by 136%, without there being a similar increase to damage, it'd heavily imbalance the game towards that particular item.
If people are so adamant to get rid of SC Banks, another option would be to redesign the shield dynamics so that rather shields comprising of a single "bubble", it has segments instead. For example, you would have Fore, Aft, Dorsal, Ventral, Port and Starboard shields and perhaps more combat orientated vessels would have stronger Fore shields and weaker aft ones; traders and multi-purpose vessels have equal shielding across the board but being somewhat weaker overall, and perhaps explorers/scouts having weak front shields but strong rear ones. To me this would introduce more tactics into the game because it would no longer be a slugging match; tactics would need to be employed to avoid being destroyed.
That's part of the entire point, really.
You're not working to kill an NPC; you're working to kill a fellow human pilot. You know what? That should take a lot of damn work. You know why? Because it took them a helluva long time to get whatever it is they're flying. It should take more than pressing fire on your gimbaled weapons for a round of fire to take their time and effort away from them. Especially if they -- like most pilots -- aren't expressly looking for a PvP fight in the first place. Most CMDRs simply want to be able to fight NPCs and *defend themselves* against human pilots as needed; they're not cruising around explicitly for PvP combat because most are not that damn wealthy such that losing their main ship can be shrugged off.
bolded for emphasis
It get's tricky, balance is rarely about numerical equality.
I think SCBs need tweaking, but I think they add to the game, and will add even more once there is a module to directly compete for that internal compartment. Remove them and combat ships become traders with big powerplants and lots of guns.
Indeed.
I love watching the bigger ships slugging it out I'm combat zones; it's somewhat majestic. Battles between large ships should be drawn out affairs and tactical engagements whereas smaller ships should employ hit and run tactics and try to out manaouevere the larger ones. If you can't take down a large ship, don't go into battle with one.
And this is the case - the time is around 180 seconds for a Python, SCB-less, and around 700 seconds for a Python with SCB's, assuming single enemy with equal-ish weaponry.
You say that killing a fellow human pilot should be hard work, but what if killing a fellow human pilot using SCB's takes four times as much work? What is the standard? Is it only when fighting enemies with SCB's that killing them should be hard work?
Do you see the problems that arise when using a certain piece of equipment basically grants you invulnerability for 10 minutes against an enemy in an equal ship?
I'm getting the feeling that you think any fight between players that does not involve SCB's only last 15 seconds. I don't think that's the case.
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You forget that real time and effort goes into earning enough to get a decent ship. Human players should be afforded the option of being able to have excellent protection from a couple of helmets wanting to destroy them. I'm flying a python, admittedly without SCBs and would be extremely piddled off with a human player who decides to jump me and turn me into space dust for no reason.
Sigh... this whole thread just reminds me how pointless internet forum debate is. It's not like anything has been gained or lost. Everyone that was against them still are, and everyone that are for them still are. At most some people who hadn't thought about it before have now chosen sides on the issue, but that's about it.
What was the point?
What was the point?
Right now a Python's max sustained DPS is 45 MJ per second on shields. With 4 points in sys and standard A6 shields and 3 boosters, a python has an eff HP of 1368. That's already a 30 second fight, if the attacker has perfect accuracy. And that's not including hull. That's just shield. SCB's bring the amount of shielding from 1368 to 8600. Turning a 30 second shield drain into a 3 minute brawl, again with perfect accuracy. And any miss, any time where you don't have 4 pips in weapons recharging, adds to that.
I really do think that 30 seconds should be enough, with more mechanics to recharge shields faster out of combat than a rediculously high DPS/HP ratio.
I don't really understand now. Are you pitching SCB's as an item that is supposed to give you invulnerability against griefers? I don't think that is how the item is used in general.
And I don't forget that. What makes you assume so?