Seriously, what's the point in open play?
- Thread starter DjVortex
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Or they just wouldn't play.
The question is, why isn't there an open (PvE only) mode?
The question is, why isn't there an open (PvE only) mode?
No idea, unless they dont really want a PVE only mode.
IMO it would be doable with their current tech without much changes needed
A PVE mode could work like this:
- it will be like a PG, free for all to join and with no upper limit on membership (this might require chances since IIRC a PG can only have a limited number of people, like 20000?)
- an automated warning / ban process in place for murders. (first murder a warning, second murder a short term ban, third murder a perma ban from the PVE PG group) this process is already in place for starter zones from where you can be removed if you go on a killing spree
- an appeal system through support, for cases like station rammers and griefers that try to enforce a murder on someone else.
Voila! Open-PVE
Or just disable player on player damage, regardless of how it happens.
that could also be an option - it's already in place for Ground CZ for example where friendly fire is disabled for team members.
However, It would still not remove an edge case of ramming another human ship and having it getting deflected into ground or geometry and having it destroyed by a collision with the environment*. Specifically possible when we take into account a griefer heavily armored ship versus a newb paper plane
This was actually happened to me in a Planetary AX CZ quite recently when i was using a shieldless build
Got a huge volley of packhounds followed by a hard ram (lots of damage) which ended with my ship hard slamming (fatal damage) into the ground (the planet had over 1g gravity) which ended with my ship getting destroyed. This happened as i was taking off the landing pad
I imagine the "appeal system through support" is the bit they don't want to have to deal with. The rest is all simple technology, that's the bit where someone with 100 free Epic alts and a bunch of creativity could generate a bunch of support calls, plus a bunch of "what's the point of Open PvE if I can be killed anyway?" threads.
Mainly the support calls would come from people doing AX CZs in Open PvE and then getting bans for stray shots being credited as an assist to the Hydra, of course.
If they wanted to avoid that, then a technical solution which puts the long-term hard work on free player volunteers would be:
- remove the PG group limit, or at least tack another zero on the end
- enhance the PG management tools to work better with larger groups and (like squadrons) allow delegated management
- allow PGs over a certain size (>1000?) to advertise themselves to non-members in the "select a PG" screen.
Then Mobius and similar can provide "Open PvE" for whatever definition of PvE (is pad-hogging encouraged or bannable?) players want, and Frontier don't have to mess around adjudicating whether that station ram was a Sidewinder killing a Cutter, or a Cutter killing a Sidewinder knowing that they'd probably be able to appeal and get the ban applied to the Sidewinder. And because it's all player-moderated groups, Frontier don't get the "Mobius' definition of PvE doesn't exactly match my definition of PvE" complaints directed at them.
Indeed, that could be an issue, but only for the very beginning.
There is a rather limited number of real griefers out there and there are ways to deal with people having 100 epic accounts - machine ID's can be recorded by ED and they can use that along with other stuff to distinguish when someone is using alts (which is definitely not a new thing for them)
I do believe an open pve could work eventually even tho it may see an initial spike of "station rammers" in the begining
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
The addition of offline mode to the scope was made about half way through the Kickstarter - well after the three online game modes had been pitched at the same time.
.... so Solo is not a compromise added after the cancellation of offline mode, it was a mode of its own from the very beginning, before offline mode was even a possibility.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
.... because we all bought (or backed) a game with three game modes, where every player experiences and affects a shared galaxy state, where other players (and therefore PvP) are optional extras that no-one needs to be bothered with.
If Solo didn't exist then there would very likely be a reduction in player numbers - as there's no requirement to present oneself to be engaged in PvP in this game (so there's no need for any player to even tolerate, much less engage in PvP) and not all players want to engage in the ganker mini-game, nor are they necessarily interested in combat in general (given the Elite ranks that don't require the player to fire a shot in combat). For some, PvP is a tediously predictable waste of limited game time - where the best possible outcome from an unwanted interaction is a waste of the time it took and the worst outcome can be many hours of game time lost.
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Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
One is free to play by out-of-game rules if one wishes - no other player needs to abide by those rules.
Yeah. I think things like AX CZs where 90%+ of the "PvP kills" would actually just be stray fire and the "victim" doesn't want anyone banned either would be the majority of the ongoing support call requirements and forum complaints. For something like a souped-up private group, they wouldn't be an issue at all, because the victim would know it was the Hydra which actually killed them, and so wouldn't report it in the first place. For an official mode where the majority of the banning is handled by instant infallible robo-justice, it'd be like the existing complaints about the C&P system being far too aggressive, only much more so because you wouldn't even be able to hop to a nearby IF to clear it.
But tune the robo-justice down to avoid "assists" counting as PvP kills, and your recent experience where technically it was the planet which killed you wouldn't count either, and you end up with the "what's the point in a PvE mode if other players can kill me in it" threads instead.
I'm not sure Frontier could set the "rules" to a point where they didn't generate a bunch of support calls one way or another.
For many the choice would be not to buy the game.This is the reason I refuse to touch Eve with a barge pole.
With Elite the scale of galaxy makes it obvious we'll be alone most of the time, barring a 'baby turtle dash' through the seal clubbers from the spawn point.
Gankers are drawn to high traffic systems, learn to spot those and I can enjoy the game in peace.
I play in Open for several reasons
- Humans provide different, though not necessarily more difficult, challenges compared to AI. Tactics that work against AI won’t work against humans, and the reverse is true. This has the potential to be more fun.
- Frontier’s tri-mode system, along-side the blocking feature, has reduced the amount of GIFT-like behavior to levels I find tolerable. The GIFTed need a certain type of player (PvE) for their entertainment, who naturally prefer solo or private groups. This leaves open primarily to PvPers, and PvP-tolerant PvE players like me. Both groups look upon the GIFTed as a source of entertainment in turn, which the GIFTed find intolerable, and so seek their entertainment elsewhere. Or make numerous open-only threads.
- Combat in ED heavily favors defense, as well as player skill. The former makes it easier to escape an attack, if you build your ship correctly. The latter means that you don’t have to be good at the game to survive an attacking GIFTed, you just have to better at it than the GIFTed, which IME is a fairly low bar to hurtle.
There's always edge cases. In GTA Online, even if in passive mode, people can cause environmental effects to kill you, for example, blowing up a car that you are stood next to, so the exploding car kills you.
But at least it avoids direct sources of damage.
I strongly suspect that if they had managed a full fledged offline mode, we would not have had an online Solo mode. The order of the announcement doesn't change much; one can plan to not meet one's ideal and I think Solo was always a bit of a fallback. They weren't sure they could have a living galaxy without a persistent online game to drive the BGS, but if they managed to do it, they wouldn't need a Solo.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
I doubt that, given how the game was pitched - where the three game modes are simply matchmaking filter settings.
To some, maybe - not all share that opinion.
The living galaxy doesn't need players to instance together - so Solo being one of the three modes that shares it is neither here nor there.
.... and, even if Solo were to be capriciously removed from the game, if Private Groups were still part of the game then that would be the functional equivalent to Solo still being part of the game - as every player can create a Private Group and there's no requirement to give anyone else access to it.
That's before we consider that Frontier implemented the block feature unasked and have made it more effective and easier to use over the years - as if they clearly understand its necessity in their view of how their multi-player game should function.
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What amuses me about the Great Open PowerPlay Debate is that every PowerPlay group accuses every other PowerPlay group of being dirty cowards hiding in Solo/PGs, while they bravely play in Open.I can sympathize with the "pirates need open" stance. Open only PP is nonsense in my opinion (cue the usual asynchronous PvP / bucket filling / time zones / instancing / PvP doesn't win PP barrage of arguments)
Which means that either:
- everyone is being truthful about the mode they play in, and the instancing in this game is just that bad
- everyone is acting like “do as I say, not as I do” hypocrites
I used to be very passionate about opposing OpenOnly PowerPlay, because I believed it would be the final coffin of ever seeing badly needed improvements to PowerPlay. These days, I’m indifferent to it. At least it would settle the debate once and for all, but I think any possibility of that happening died with Sandro leaving the project.
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Yeah, i've noted that myself before, with both sides accusing the other of doing it.
It is as if there are no time zones to consider either - in a recent conflict where a PMF was present - derision was thrown that we were 'hiding' in solo / PG... Even though the group were 7 hours behind our own - although when a couple of our group's USA players were online, in open, nothing was seen of the noisy ones... Maybe matchmaking is that bad? (doesn't stop us all playing together, oddly enough)
The modes are brilliant! \o/
That said, I fly in Open 99% of times today (including the CG, 704t of Palladium on board), but have flown in Mobius PG for years before, and it always was right and there were valid reasons for it. Freedom of choice is a gift!
O7,
That said, I fly in Open 99% of times today (including the CG, 704t of Palladium on board), but have flown in Mobius PG for years before, and it always was right and there were valid reasons for it. Freedom of choice is a gift!
O7,
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