Seriously, what's the point in open play?

[Daniel Cloudsifter]

Have you played a Bethesda game at all?
My other half dragged me back to Fallout 76 (she's a long time fan of the series) and I'm currently averaging 2 or 3 crashes per session. Slide show lag if there's anyone else around, objects slow to spawn in or just plain invisible.
I laugh at anyone who complains about Elite's bugs.

Yes... I've played Fallout 3, Skyrim, and Fallout 4. In the case of Fallout 4, the bugs were the most egregious... but most were ironed out within six months. I've finished Fallout 4 three times and still like to go back to it.

I was in no way trying to contrast Starfield's amount of bugs (of which, I'm sure there will be a lot) with Elite's. However, Starfield will have more of the game I want to play than Elite (full space legs, ship interiors, base building, etc.). Doesn't mean I won't still com back to Elite. It means Starfield is going to seriously cut into the time I spend in Elite, just as Fallout has done for several months here and there over the years... but even more so, because it is a game closer to Elite.

Also, I skipped Fallout 76 because it is a train wreck compared to their other games as well as requiring a monthly subscription. Pass on that.

 

[Felix DiCestria]

Yes... I've played Fallout 3, Skyrim, and Fallout 4. In the case of Fallout 4, the bugs were the most egregious... but most were ironed out within six months. I've finished Fallout 4 three times and still like to go back to it.

I was in no way trying to contrast Starfield's amount of bugs (of which, I'm sure there will be a lot) with Elite's. However, Starfield will have more of the game I want to play than Elite (full space legs, ship interiors, base building, etc.). Doesn't mean I won't still com back to Elite. It means Starfield is going to seriously cut into the time I spend in Elite, just as Fallout has done for several months here and there over the years... but even more so, because it is a game closer to Elite.

Also, I skipped Fallout 76 because it is a train wreck compared to their other games as well as requiring a monthly subscription. Pass on that.

It doesn't require a subscription, (I certainly don't) It's more pay to win. I specifically don't intend to subscribe to fallout 1st because I know the gameplay won't keep me from Elite for long. Once we've explored 'The Pit' (Pittsburgh) it'll be back to the Milky Way.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

But is it?
I'd say it isn't

The current PP objectives is to fill countless of PVE buckets.
If you and me compete in the PP and i do 10 runs with merits in a Cutter and you try to stop me while using a FDL and you actually succeed 8 times out of 10*, who would win?
Easy answer - i do, because i managed to ferry 2 loads of merits and you didnt because you got your PVP fun by killing me 8 times but without doing any proper PP work

*(ridiculous, in reality you wouldnt manage to score a single kill against an open prepped Cutter)

That's an absurdly oversimplified example. Powerplay isn't a 1v1. Also, cutters do get regularly taken down. Also, not everyone has a cutter (I don't and haul in a T9), and they may not be g5'd, they may be a poor pilot. They also don't have to be taken down. Merely forced to wake or waylaid is good. Systems can be locked down by 4 pilots. You're talking about something of which you have no experience . And I think all this has been explained before but it goes out the other ear.

A clearer example. Send a wing of PvPers to shoot underminers at the nav beacon (the only way to get merits efficiently if there isn't a haz res), and then have your haulers haul in solo. Your opponents now have their UMing rate decimated while your hauling continues beyond threat.

Further the fact is ignored that some days a player rolls out of bed and doesn't want to earn merits. If people are in open then there's a playstyle available that allows them to have an equivalent effect through PvP, which they may be in the mood for.

One more thing, if there's a danger of losing personal assets, or losing progress of your side, then regardless of the odds, a blockade might make you wary of jumping in at all, and may even make you end your session or go and do something else where you can be more confident of the outcome for effort expended.

I dunno, talking to the wall probably, or you'll cherry pick some extraneous point to prop up the collective forum delusion about all this. It doesn't matter, changes to powerplay will be on the PvE side and hopefully throw everyone a bone.

Interesting point - for the thargoid war, social modes, and maybe even preferentially open, become the meta, because the PvE is harder. You typically need wingmates. To be fair though, if PvP turns up, PG becomes preferred by most. With the subtle difference that PvP is widely considered to have no place in AX scenarios.

 

[Shabine]

However, Starfield will have more of the game I want to play than Elite (full space legs, ship interiors, base building, etc.). Doesn't mean I won't still com back to Elite. It means Starfield is going to seriously cut into the time I spend in Elite, just as Fallout has done for several months here and there over the years... but even more so, because it is a game closer to Elite.

The reason I'm not at all hyped for Starfield is the same reason you're looking forward to it. Full space legs and base building isn't why I play flight sims. Starfield spaceships seem like they'll exist primarily to take us from planet to planet so that we can walk around and gather stuff to build other stuff. They aren't really the focus of any gameplay apart from what looks a lot of arcade space combat. Apparently, we don't even land the ships. We tell them to land and get a loading screen. I'm sure it'll provide people with a memorable experience, but everything I've seen makes me think it's more of a standard Bethesda rpg wearing a shiny new science fiction outfit.

As for PP in Elite, it is fundamentally broken by virtue of the fact that Elite's modes undermine and dissolve any semblance of real competition and it's a stupid feature to begin with. Most players are able to treat it as an annoying one-trip merit grind to unlock a module they want... and for the most part they do.

 

[Brrokk]

...

Interesting point - for the thargoid war, social modes, and maybe even preferentially open, become the meta, because the PvE is harder. You typically need wingmates. To be fair though, if PvP turns up, PG becomes preferred by most. With the subtle difference that PvP is widely considered to have no place in AX scenarios.

An important point with the Thargoid war is that Open play is possible because there are lots of battle locations, so gankers usually can't find the AX pilots. AX groups still take precautions by arranging locations in private Discord channels and redacting system names in their public announcements. But my experience is that the game still doesn't work properly in Open; to get a bug-free fully-functioning instance with all your wingmates you really have to use a PG.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

An important point with the Thargoid war is that Open play is possible because there are lots of battle locations, so gankers usually can't find the AX pilots. AX groups still take precautions by arranging locations in private Discord channels and redacting system names in their public announcements. But my experience is that the game still doesn't work properly in Open; to get a bug-free fully-functioning instance with all your wingmates you really have to use a PG.

AXI produce public targets that are pushed here there and everywhere across discord, and are where everyone will be, and the AXI discord is open to all, and there's a top 5 systems in galmap in-game. And, funny, some of the mentors on AXI also gank from time to time . And I've not seen a single ganker since the start of the war (although I have had some reported once to me in systems I was involved in defending). I have spent some time in the AXI PG but it was to get wingmates. Which does mean that sometimes yes there weren't so many people in open. But actually, very reliably someone is there in open - just not enough people to carry me through tougher interceptor fights . Enough for a ganker to gank though. And people calling out their location, version and mode in syschat. Another reason to think ganking is an overblown problem? Re bugs I've found buggy issues on both sides of the PG/open divide but yeah common wisdom seems to be it's worse in open.

 

[Felix DiCestria]

The reason I'm not at all hyped for Starfield is the same reason you're looking forward to it. Full space legs and base building isn't why I play flight sims. Starfield spaceships seem like they'll exist primarily to take us from planet to planet so that we can walk around and gather stuff to build other stuff. They aren't really the focus of any gameplay apart from what looks a lot of arcade space combat. Apparently, we don't even land the ships. We tell them to land and get a loading screen. I'm sure it'll provide people with a memorable experience, but everything I've seen makes me think it's more of a standard Bethesda rpg wearing a shiny new science fiction outfit.

The lack of actually flying your spaceship did come as a bit of a slap. So an Outer Worlds alike.

 

[StarGoid]

Open is game's only unlimited membership social mode. Not "just" PVP mode. That seems to be hard to understand for certain people. Me being in open does not mean I would tolerate unwanted PVP against me. And I define what is unwanted. Fdev have given players rather powerfull tool for that.

Being in open specifically means that you will be facing players who wish to harm you. That is a reality of the game. If you're in a situation where PVP wouldn't be ideal - move to Solo. (Problem solved)

 

[StarGoid]

Possibly, if they made the game unplayable, and they ganged up on people who eg. want to go to the engineer in Deciat, making them lose a huge amount of time, effort and credits (because it's usually the first engineer that beginners go to, and the Meta-Alloy is excessively hard to find, super-rare and quite expensive at that point, unless you want to pay the extortion prices at the player fleet carriers, which many players can't even afford at that point.)

If your time, energy, credits, materials, and engineering are more important than the realities of open play... then it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to move to Solo play. It's not a difficult concept to wrap a mind around. It's a space simulation. It's supposed to have realistic risks etc that fit the lore, dialogue, and "realities" that ALL PLAYERS share in OPEN play.
Also, the fact that you take objection to someone's pricing at a fleet carrier already details where your mind is at, and pretty much makes your entire point rather moot.

 

[StarGoid]

You made a common mistake. Open is not "realistic" or immersive because of gankers , if it was "realistic," the instant someone started doing what gankers did, stations would not let them board, even "anonymously." They'd just shoot them down on sight. Even pirate stations because gankers are not pirates. Pirates still rely on trade and travel. Being a rando psychopath just killing for killing's sake is not good for anybody. In REALITY piracy is not easy. They wouldn't have access to state of the art equipment, not to mention magically engineered stuff. They'd have to scrape by with stolen or scrapped equipment and hope it doesn't blow up. Do you think age of exploration pirates went to the ship dealer and just bought a new ship, loaded with cannons and everything? Piracy was a hard life. And people usually did it because they had no other choice and had to scrape by with violence and scavenging. And just running around killing everybody on sight for no gain is even less realistic than piracy in elite. They are spending millions and millions of credits just to murder people? Did you think "The Most Dangerous Game" was based on a true story?

Before you mention that this is a game, you are the one that brought realism into the discussion.

LOL
My original point stands quite firmly on it's own. If you don't like the reality of other people's presence and choices, then move to a different reality. That's why SOLO and PG exist. It's your choice to participate - and you already know the risks. It's not a difficult concept to understand.

 

[StarGoid]

The issue isn't being shot at. The issue is people in maximally engineered Corvettes slotting newbies for fun. That's not good gameplay. The only reason to do that is because they like upsetting people, and that's just not good from any angle. It's not gameplay at all, it's being (masked swearing removed)

If I jump in in a fully engineered FdL then sure, pull me and shoot me, that's clearly why I am there. But leave the newbies alone.

Newbies being ganked is defs an as*hole move. But there is this thing called "Solo" play where newbies can get their stuffs sorted out if they aren't willing to risk the realities of Open play... no? Oh, and then there's the starting area, where newbies are safe, and can remain in - building their skills etc. for quite a long time if they like. I mean - it's not like the game doesn't warn them several times about leaving the safety of the starting area(s). Plus - the actual frequency of seal clubbing newbs is incredibly small. LIke insanely small. It is far more likely that a newb will be approached by a ganker as a potential recruit to their squadron as opposed to being a potential target. And even if they DO get ganked - what have they actually lost? An hour? 2 Hours? or even 5 Hours? And in that first 5 hours, how many times does an average Newb end up dying without any help from a ganker? In my experience... at least once or twice. So - do tell - what is the "issue"?

 

[TobiasFuzz]

Being in open specifically means that you will be facing players who wish to harm you. That is a reality of the game. If you're in a situation where PVP wouldn't be ideal - move to Solo. (Problem solved)

Better to block unwanted attackers, then you can enjoy cooperative gameplay without distraction.

LOL
My original point stands quite firmly on it's own. If you don't like the reality of other people's presence and choices, then move to a different reality. That's why SOLO and PG exist. It's your choice to participate - and you already know the risks. It's not a difficult concept to understand.

PG is for PvP players. Open is for cooperative gameplay.

 

[StarGoid]

Totally agree. My only additional ask is that Frontier add some features so that if I get ganked I can either hunt the person down myself or pay someone else to do it

Totally already a thing.

 

[StarGoid]

Better to block unwanted attackers, then you can enjoy cooperative gameplay without distraction.


PG is for PvP players. Open is for cooperative gameplay.

You seem confused. Here, let me help:
Open is for everyone who enjoys a non-restricted interaction in a realistic simulator that includes other players.
PG is for friends who want to play without other people who weren't invited.
Solo is for people who don't want to interact with other players.
It literally says something like that in the game menu. #you'reWelcome

 

[StarGoid]

The reason I'm not at all hyped for Starfield is the same reason you're looking forward to it. Full space legs and base building isn't why I play flight sims. Starfield spaceships seem like they'll exist primarily to take us from planet to planet so that we can walk around and gather stuff to build other stuff. They aren't really the focus of any gameplay apart from what looks a lot of arcade space combat. Apparently, we don't even land the ships. We tell them to land and get a loading screen. I'm sure it'll provide people with a memorable experience, but everything I've seen makes me think it's more of a standard Bethesda rpg wearing a shiny new science fiction outfit.

As for PP in Elite, it is fundamentally broken by virtue of the fact that Elite's modes undermine and dissolve any semblance of real competition and it's a stupid feature to begin with. Most players are able to treat it as an annoying one-trip merit grind to unlock a module they want... and for the most part they do.

Starfield looks like a fantastic way to make the E.D. "grind" seem like a casual walk in the park. hehe

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

PG is for PvP players. Open is for cooperative gameplay.

The problem with this statement is, while it is equally as arrogant as the statement "open is for PvP, if you don't want PvP go to solo or PG", for some reason the latter is the accepted arrogance, while your statement somehow is outrageous, just because those claiming open for PvP have the bigger... I was going to say balls, but it is more that they have the bigger club to hit you over the head with.

Oh and @StarGoid : You sound incredibly arrogant and patronizing. Not helping your cause.


Having said that, here is one of my stories why unrestricted open with toothless C&P just sucks: Lately I have been flying more and more in open. Mostly because I just don't give a frack anymore and I am flying more or less gank proof ships anyway. But a while ago I had an encounter with one of those particularly annoying star campers that reminded me just how annoying those gankers can be.

I had dusted off an old ship and had to re-do some engineering, and for that I had to get a few experimentals from the engineers themselves. So I jump into a particular engineer system (no, not Deciat), and right at the star I see a hollow triangle, sitting and waiting, and in the contact panel of course one of those muppets with pink hair. And a particularly sad specimen too, because it wasn't one of the high traffic engineer systems, so it must have been very exciting gameplay to sit at the star and wait for someone to arrive.

And of course - bam, interdiction. I submit, turn around, boost past him, target a high wake, and see a few projectiles whizzing by. I wait a little, but no comms or anything. Just camping and shooting. So I jump out.

Second try: Same thing. I wait a bit longer to jump out, more or less toying around with the fella a bit. I lose a bit of shield, but nothing major, toothless authorities arrive, and I jump out again. At that point I had to make a decision. I had already lost time dancing around some muppet's "emergent gameplay", and I now could choose between doing it all over again, leaving open or do what I chose to do: Block the fool and travel through to the engineer.

Some time later I thought I should have sent the muppet a friend request and ask him how long it would take to play that game for him to get bored of it and leave me alone, because by the second time it should have been clear that I did not want to play his game even though I was flying what looked like a combat ship (and then, after asking and maybe getting a reply unfriend him again ). Sadly, I only thought of that later. In the end, we all lost. The ganker did not get his pew, clubbed seal or salt collection, and I lost time and got annoyed with a muppet.

 

[Shabine]

At that point I had to make a decision. I had already lost time dancing around some muppet's "emergent gameplay", and I now could choose between doing it all over again, leaving open or do what I chose to do: Block the fool and travel through to the engineer.

I just don't do busy work in Open. Engineering. Mining. Testing. Things that I'm not interested in being interrupted while I'm doing them. If I'm traveling around exploring or racing or gathering or shooting Thargoids in Open and I get targeted for some "emergent gameplay", I'm keenly aware that I signed up for it.

I have no idea why Solo and PGs have this weird stigma attached to them. ED is too casual for that noise.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

If I had thought about it I would proabably have traveled in solo. I just had not noticed I was in open until the "Muppet Show" happen.

 

[Darrack]

If I had thought about it I would proabably have traveled in solo. I just had not noticed I was in open until the "Muppet Show" happen.

I almost exclusively fly in Solo now unless a few friends want to PG, now i log in without thinking its automatic i hit Solo.
No worries i just explore, mine, do missions and Power Play devoid of any hassle, it made my ED expeerience so much more relaxed.

O7

 

[TiberiusDuval]

Ironic that you would bring up that ridiculous point:
People hiding in SOLO to adversely effect BGS without the risk of consequences from those actions are cowards and opportunists who exploit the intermodal aspects of the game. You seem deeply confused about the notions of fairness or balanced play. In our opinion, those players should be dragged into OPEN and forced to face the consequences of their actions. Or, better yet - the effects they have on BGS should be nerfed to the point where they would rather play in OPEN or just give up their back handed treachery entirely.
Yes, gankers prefer real persons to target, that's what PVP means. BGS interference is another form of PVP play that cowards use SOLO to avoid any and all forms of consequence entirely. Yet - apparently that's ok even though there are thousands of more hours and billions of credits more at stake for exponentially more players who have no recourse of any kind. Imagine how much better the game would be - if BGS was only effective in open play. That PVP and Ganking would actually have realistic purposes ... oh the gloriousness of such a reality. Ahhhh, but to dream.

Perhaps people using wrong tools for a job can also be called with a name. Starts with an I, ends with T and have five letters. You simply do not win against opponent in BGS by shooting him. However much you like it.