Shield Booster Diminishing Returns- Stop the Stack

[Danieros]

I really don't get why this has turned into another PvE vs PvP crowds argument (mostly from just one side). I actually reject the idea that such a strict separation exists and that they are opposing groups.

It's a simple matter of game balance.

Because NPCs don't use properly engineered shield boosters, so we live in this whole other game rules where a player stacks 10k mj of shields and solo brute forces through even the hardest pve content like wing threat level 6-7 stuff that still isn't at outfitting that rivals players. Heck, we get the ocasional thread that NPCs shouldn't even use chaffs.

If NPCs used shields like players do, within hours there would be consensus on the state of shield booster stacking.

 

[Trollymctrollerson]

Because NPCs don't use properly engineered shield boosters, so we live in this whole other game rules where a player stacks 10k mj of shields and solo brute forces through even the hardest pve content like wing threat level 6-7 stuff that still isn't at outfitting that rivals players. Heck, we get the ocasional thread that NPCs shouldn't even use chaffs.

If NPCs used shields like players do, within hours there would be consensus on the state of shield booster stacking.

Thats a good point. Instead of doing anything to shield boosters initially, let the game recycle player builds for the NPCs to fly around. Literally clone ships from peoples accounts and set them loose in the galaxy with dangerous, deadly and elite AI pilots. I think that is a pretty equitable solution but the forum would go supernova with NaCl fueled nuclear meltdown.

 

[Commander Biscuit]

Because NPCs don't use properly engineered shield boosters, so we live in this whole other game rules where a player stacks 10k mj of shields and solo brute forces through even the hardest pve content like wing threat level 6-7 stuff that still isn't at outfitting that rivals players. Heck, we get the ocasional thread that NPCs shouldn't even use chaffs.

If NPCs used shields like players do, within hours there would be consensus on the state of shield booster stacking.

Balancing PVE and PVP content separately is fairly standard game design. Making things arbitrarily consistent doesn't automatically make a good system.

FD have made going pop a voluntary process on purpose. Gankers need to understand that it's not going to change. Not unless FD wants to drive away their players.

 

[DemiserofD]

I mean, most of the problem with NPCs is that they also use stuff like Point Defense and ECM.

Which wouldn't be a problem if missiles were actually a valid utility choice, putting NPCs and Players on even footing...but they're not right now.

Which strikes me as the most straightforward solution to this problem. Buff missiles until players need to use Point Defense and ECM like NPCs do, and pow, you've got a reasonably improved balance already.

 

[Trollymctrollerson]

NPC builds are hilariously bad some times. I see FDLs with turrets, cutters with fixed beams, dropships full of SCBs. Their modules seem randomly generated and completely lack any synergy the way player made loadouts have. Its pretty obvious they are just tomato cans lined up to be knocked down and give mediocre pilots a power trip.

 

[DemiserofD]

NPC builds are hilariously bad some times. I see FDLs with turrets, cutters with fixed beams, dropships full of SCBs. Their modules seem randomly generated and completely lack any synergy the way player made loadouts have. Its pretty obvious they are just tomato cans lined up to be knocked down and give mediocre pilots a power trip.

To be fair, those are the 'standard' npcs, which represent average players. The average player probably only has a few engineers unlocked, and they're probably FSDs and such.

The high-end NPCs in pirate activites and wing assassinations are much more durable and put out quite a bit more damage.

 

[Trollymctrollerson]

To be fair, those are the 'standard' npcs, which represent average players. The average player probably only has a few engineers unlocked, and they're probably FSDs and such.

The high-end NPCs in pirate activites and wing assassinations are much more durable and put out quite a bit more damage.

I know they are a step above generic rez site clowns but they are still nowhere near what players are using. They probably are G2 or 3 Engineering with a few experimentals. I have NEVER seen an NPC flying a bi weave hull tanked FAS or a prismatic railgun FDL with 3000mj. They have Corvettes and cutters some times in the wing assassin missions but even then, they might only have 2 or 3 shield boosters. When you find an NPC gunship with a 1100 MJ prismatic, a class 6 SCB, a point defense, a fixed beam Taipan, 3500 hull with 45% resistance to all damage, armed with a TLB APA, 4 g5 OC multis with corrosive, thermal shock, emissive, autoloader and 2 feedback cascade railguns with every module at G5, i will be pretty impressed.

 

[Several Puffins]

I know they are a step above generic rez site clowns but they are still nowhere near what players are using. They probably are G2 or 3 Engineering with a few experimentals. I have NEVER seen an NPC flying a bi weave hull tanked FAS or a prismatic railgun FDL with 3000mj. They have Corvettes and cutters some times in the wing assassin missions but even then, they might only have 2 or 3 shield boosters. When you find an NPC gunship with a 1100 MJ prismatic, a class 6 SCB, a point defense, a fixed beam Taipan, 3500 hull with 45% resistance to all damage, armed with a TLB APA, 4 g5 OC multis with corrosive, thermal shock, emissive, autoloader and 2 feedback cascade railguns with every module at G5, i will be pretty impressed.

You're just trying to arrange a reverb META.

 

[space voyager]

PvPers, and gankers asking Fdev to sacrifice everyone else's playstyle to improve their own again.
Though, I will agree emphatically that any further defensive and offensive power creep needs to be opposed.
What I don't want, is to go back through all of my ships and refit them because someone wants to be able to make "ship go boom" quicker. Few people like to give up what they already have, to give someone else something we don't even agree they should have.

Well, you do agree offensive and defensive power creep needs to be opposed. This would make Elite a better game. Whatever is made in this direction, it will mean all combat ships will need to be reworked. A price we pay for a higher goal.

 

[Rat Catcher]

I really don't get why this has turned into another PvE vs PvP crowds argument (mostly from just one side).

Well, if PvP players didn't have the urge to 'nerf' the things they find distateful it would never occur.... simples!

Take a look through the recent past and note that 'nerf' requests occuring have all been originated by PvP players, and, in the main, insist that PvE players wouldn't notice the changes anyway... Certainly a classic example from "How to gain friends and influence people" - on how not to, naturally.

 

[Bigmaec]

Well, if PvP players didn't have the urge to 'nerf' the things they find distateful it would never occur.... simples!

Take a look through the recent past and note that 'nerf' requests occuring have all been originated by PvP players, and, in the main, insist that PvE players wouldn't notice the changes anyway... Certainly a classic example from "How to gain friends and influence people" - on how not to, naturally.

And the PvErs want everything "buffed" because they aren't powerful enough

Both sides are guilty of a certain "I want haz mine" I'd say

 

[Rat Catcher]

And the PvErs want everything "buffed" because they aren't powerful enough

Both sides are guilty of a certain "I want haz mine" I'd say

No, the PvE players want NPC's 'nerfed' as they have guns & shields....

So you are in agreement that the two should never meet and the game needs a shake up to accommodate such diverse demands?

(Every extra snippet I read, from both sides, makes the difference much more apparent - for example: PvP player doesn't like the idea of another player 'daring' to use ADC, SCA, KWS, paper shields...)

 

[LeoBartlet]

Both sides are guilty of a certain "I want haz mine" I'd say

and here I am just amazed how anyone could fine 40 minute fights entertaining.

 

[Rat Catcher]

and here I am just amazed how anyone could fine 40 minute fights entertaining.

It's all about how 'long' it is, surely?

 

[LeoBartlet]

It's all about how 'long' it is, surely?

Not really a fan of tantric combat myself and I suspect those who spend all their time engineering shields and boosters to the max run before the vinegar strokes (aka when their shields drop).

 

[Rat Catcher]

Not really a fan of tantric combat myself and I suspect those who spend all their time engineering shields and boosters to the max run before the vinegar strokes (aka when their shields drop).

The funniest thing around all of these 'debates' is not what it is possible to do, but that it is always done... So players feel 'forced' to stack everything to the max, then complain that it takes so long to 'kill'.

Good PvP players are considerably more skilled than the 'average Joe' who plays the game for fun... Yet they would disadvantage 'Joe' because they are unable to show any restraint in their loadout because "The Other Guy" certainly won't. I have a 'Cookie Cutter' FDL - but you can rest assured that it wouldn't take a PvP player 20 minutes to blow up...

It is a bit like a Canyon Racer insisting that every ship be able to do a minimum of 900 m/s because that is how he/she/it 'rolls', baby!

 

[Achtung-Goomba]

Not really a fan of tantric combat myself and I suspect those who spend all their time engineering shields and boosters to the max run before the vinegar strokes (aka when their shields drop).

You’d love combat with me then because my shields will always finish first

This is indeed an intriguing discussion thread, though I need no help in nerfing my own ship builds because I’m quite good at that myself! My battleconda/cargoconda (I confuse myself swapping modules a lot so I just leave some big cargo racks next to the HRP and MRP) only has two boosters, because even with 8 utilities I wanted other stuff too like masses of PDT (two dorsal and two aft ventral to cover as many angles as possible) and heatsinks, because I don’t want to melt myself accidentally and I figured big ships would be a magnet for missiles when those meagre biweaves inevitably drop. Even on my Mamba I just left a few utilities open because it felt ‘cheap’ to just stack shields like there’s no tomorrow and I didn’t know what else to put in them, and I’m far too stubborn to use ‘magic potion’ SCB... but that’s entirely player-driven handicaps and not a major problem hiding in Solo/PG. I’m sure my inefficient playstyle has little to offer the discussion, but I was feeling a bit left out.

As ever, the consensus seems to be that engineering powercreep has let the cat out of the bag, with the ability to stack both masses of defensive shields and potent alpha-strike DPS on a single medium hull.

 

[LeoBartlet]

You’d love combat with me then because my shields will always finish first

I think we'd both struggle to last 30 seconds as I don't even have any boosters on my Krait.

 

[Rat Catcher]

You’d love combat with me then because my shields will always finish first

I think we'd both struggle to last 30 seconds as I don't even have any boosters on my Krait.

Here is a 'fun' one...

Until recently I'd play with a friend and 'for fun' we'd play in small stock ships to try to blow each other up... It is surprising how long these little ships last when both players are trying not to get blown up! (Technically my combat skill should be way better than his, but in PvP combat we are about equal (read useless) in ability)

Oddly, there was far more laughter in these silly 'matches' than when winged up mincing NPC's in a Haz Res...

 

[tolm]

Still on the “no” front personally but wondering if Shield Boosters OR Cell Banks would go some way to balance this: ie you can only use one or the other, not both?