Shield Cells OP

[Morbad]

I'd agree that it shouldn't be possible to carry more than one set at a time (i.e. a guy fitting 3 internals full of Cell Banks).

If they fit, they fit.

I welcome anyone who has devoted 10% of the mass of their ship to SCBs to try and see what my lighter vessel is capable of against it.

Misconceptions that lead to people doing such things add a lot of depth to the game. It's a fine balance between carrying enough SCBs to be useful, but no so many that you omit more useful components or handicap yourself with the extra weight.

An NPC Anaconda? Totally depends on what the AI feels like but you'd probably be fine.

A PC Anaconda? Might prolong things but you'd still lose pretty quick.

Anaconda is too slow, and doesn't turn or maneuver well. If they get into your blind spot, good luck ever getting them out. Of course, if they screw up, a paper ship like an Eagle just vanishes in the blink of an eye.

wait until NPCs use them

They have been using them for a while. As far back as Beta 3 at least.

shield cells are the only way to "survive" in warzones for long. Survive as in not having to run back to a station and drop 100k on repairs after a few minutes.

No, they aren't and anyone who thinks they are doesn't have enough experience to be commenting on them.

Until such time as most of the other ships in the warzone also pack cells in which case your no better off and every kill just takes that much longer.

90% of the time, they won't have the opportunity to use them, well except for the Anaconda, but those can usually be ignored until the NPCs have worn them down.

Npcs do have and occasionally use shield cells. They just aren't good with them. They'll use maybe 1 and very rarely 2 a fight.

I've seen a Type-9 use no less than five.

All these arguments along the lines of "it helps me survive against xyz" seem to be predicated on the idea that xyz wont have cells as well, which is unlikely, in which case you are back to square one.

I carry SCBs (A1, 0.5 tons) to make my escape from a more skilled CMDR in a faster ship possible. I almost never need them in any other situation.

It doesn't matter if this hostile CMDR has them too, because I'm not going to shoot at them, I'm going to run for the five seconds it takes to jump out.

Another elite anaconda, no npc to help this time.
I made the fight as simple as possible to demonstrate shield cells, no evasive maneuvers.

I'd change the title to "NPC AI Broken".

I have zero issue with SCBs being used the way you are using them here. I'd never carry that many, but if someone else wants to burn a bucket of them fighting brain dead AI, that's their problem.

That's a little embarrassing for what should be the hardest AI encounter in the game!

Anaconda have never been the hardest AI encounters in the game. Cobra and Python in particular are more of a threat.

I don't know how people can defend an elite NPC anaconda, the strongest ship in the game, made mind-numbingly easy to beat by one module.

I don't know how any one could mistake the Anaconda for the strongest ship in the game...like being able to move doesn't matter.

But still the answer should not be to nerf shield cells - but to have more NPCs equipped with them (especially the higher ranked ones), and make them use the cells more often. Imagine the Anaconda would have been doing that, the fight might have ended differently.

Indeed larger ships can carry many more SCBs before they feel the penalties. Most every Asp, Python, Anaconda, and Dropship should have a high-class SCB. Would make team work against them more useful.

It's an Elite Anaconda, what should be harder than that?

Anything that can both move and fight at the same time.

CMDR Anaconda need to worry about single determined Cobra and Viper CMDRs of similar skill, and they should...because these ships are fast enough to disengage and reengage at will, maneuverable enough to get in and stay in blind spots for significant periods of time, and can carry competent weapon loadouts.

What's easier to do? Get rid of one moduel or re-write the AI?

Getting rid of the module doesn't solve anything. Anaconda fight the same way they have since before SCBs were introduced and after a small amount of practice, most pilots can take them down without needing SCBs at all, and not have to spend a cent on repairs.

Better AI could solve everything.

Any one piece of equipment (especially if inexpensive) which gives you such an advantage in combat that it becomes defacto for success in any one-on-one encounter with an otherwise equal opponent is clearly not good from a gameplay point of view.

Like shields?

All problems solved. Thanks almighty shield cell. Now i dont have to worry about my skills as a pilot, tactics or maneuverability.
Just press shield cell potion.

The more people that believe this nonsense, the safer every other CMDR is from them in PvP.

You can't balance PvE as every NPC has a crippling handicap...AI rather than a brain.

 

[Trickle]

I'd love to see them removed, especially as the NPCs don't use them.

This gets my vote. I'd rather have none at all.

Minimum for me would be to have 1 bank max and fix the 2B current total error.

 

[Im_Lost]

If they fit, they fit.

I welcome anyone who has devoted 10% of the mass of their ship to SCBs to try and see what my lighter vessel is capable of against it.

Misconceptions that lead to people doing such things add a lot of depth to the game. It's a fine balance between carrying enough SCBs to be useful, but no so many that you omit more useful components or handicap yourself with the extra weight.

Yea but weight isn't a factor when you can just out tank the other guy. If your a trader all you need are shield cell banks and mines and no one will ever be able to catch you (a type-6 is actually pretty fast btw, almost as fast as an Eagle). Use prox mines as you run away (forcing the one chasing to go round them, slowing them down) and use shield banks, then jump away. It will be impossible to actually be a pirate once everyone figures that out.

 

[Miimis Maks]

Python?

[video=youtube;BV7JNACakI0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BV7JNACakI0[/video]

 

[fergal]

I'd like to see more videos too. I do think the eagle or the adder stand a pretty good chance of being able to do the same thing tho.

Edit: or the hauler.

The hauler only has one weapon mount so might not be able to get an anacondas shields down at all.

The issue isn't killing the npc anaconda, that just demonstrates the kind of damage they allow you to absorb.

The problem is the opportunity cost of them. They are too cheap to not have. Their weight, credit cost, powerusage. Everything that is used to balance the equipment you put into your ship.

Compare a size 1 and size 2 beam laser.
size 1 cost around 20000 - 50000 cr.
size 2 is 300000 cr.

size 1 weighs 2t
size 2 weighs 4t

You can fire the size 1 for 2 - 3 times longer.

The size 2 only does around 60% more damage.

 

[Kestril]

Well said fergal.

 

[HeavyGroovez]

What Morbad said.


Better AI could solve everything. Not even better, just much more aggressive.


How many times have you fought against an AI that doesnt even shoot back ?

 

[Defacto]

What Morbad said.


Better AI could solve everything. Not even better, just much more aggressive.


How many times have you fought against an AI that doesnt even shoot back ?

I've fought against players, who certainly shot back
Still didn't help them when I actived my SCB. Poof! Shields at 100%! Try again!

I don't think more aggressive AI would be enough to solve this, but I agree that they sometimes go off in a strange spiralling course, instead of tring to outmanuever me or escaping. This is of course bad, but I think it's another issue.

 

[HeavyGroovez]

I've fought against players, who certainly shot back
Still didn't help them when I actived my SCB. Poof! Shields at 100%! Try again!

I don't think more aggressive AI would be enough to solve this, but I agree that they sometimes go off in a strange spiralling course, instead of tring to outmanuever me or escaping. This is of course bad, but I think it's another issue.

Care to try against 130 million quids worth of Python ?


No shield cells...

 

[Defacto]

Care to try against 130 million quids worth of Python ?


No shield cells...

Sadly I don't have a Python of my own, but if someone could volunteer, we could set up an experiment.
Although Miimis Mask's videos shows a lot of the problems already IMO.

 

[kungfubiker]

what he said...^..............or a seriously tooled up Cobra........even in my sidewinder i can make a stalemate against most to achieve an escape.... but against thse who know? not a ing chance lol

 

[obliterator]

I've fought against players, who certainly shot back
Still didn't help them when I actived my SCB. Poof! Shields at 100%! Try again!

I think that burst damage would be a good answer to this. I use 2x dumbfire missiles and 2x fixed medium beams on my viper, and although I get smaller time windows to deal damage, most of the time the shields are gone more or less instantly.

 

[fergal]

I think that burst damage would be a good answer to this. I use 2x dumbfire missiles and 2x fixed medium beams on my viper, and although I get smaller time windows to deal damage, most of the time the shields are gone more or less instantly.

I don't think anyone is debating that big upfront damage is the counter to shied cells.

The problem is everyone should have shield cells at their current cost.

There is no choice to either have them or not, what others have said here is correct, its like trying to fight someone without any weapons, or no shields.
Because of their costs (and I'm again talking about credits, power and weight) everyone will have them, so you need them to even the playing field.

 

[ndrwc]

Frontier have already spoken on this issue. During Beta.

We're pretty happy with the was the shield cell system works. We've made changes to how much each cell costs to buy though (400cr a piece I think now) and if we were to do anything else it would be to slightly increase the warm up time so it's riskier to use when your shields are nearly depleted.

So no, they are not OP, they are not going away, they are pretty close to how Frontier intend them to be after a long design and test period.

If you really want examples of "OP", go back and read the discussions (and eventual outcomes) regarding gimballed weapons and cannons; both of which received (well-justified) nerfs during various stages of Beta.

 

[Kestril]

The item being the developers intention and being overpowered are two different things.

Opinions can change from feedback, and many in this thread think it's not okay to be able to facetank the guns on an elite-rank anaconda due to one inexpensive module, myself included. Balance testing and metas are an ongoing thing.

If I recall correctly, shield cells were removed in the late beta stages for a brief period of time. I'm not sure if that's before of after mike commented with your quote on the above.

 

[fergal]

Frontier have already spoken on this issue. During Beta.



So no, they are not OP, they are not going away, they are pretty close to how Frontier intend them to be after a long design and test period.

If you really want examples of "OP", go back and read the discussions (and eventual outcomes) regarding gimballed weapons and cannons; both of which received (well-justified) nerfs during various stages of Beta.

That was in the middle of October, was that before or after the first nerf to shield cells?

They certainly cost 100cr each not 400cr on an A3 shield cell, and 10000cr each wouldn't change anything.

The price of ammunition was played around with and people stopped using multicannons because it was too much. Now the cost of ammunition has been lowered, same thing needs to be done with shield cells to make them an option.

 

[heartorhead]

I must agree, banks in current form are OP.

 

[Don_Von_Hulio]

The video just shows the Ai needs to be tweaked for Elites to have a higher chance of the aggressive attitude.... or just you know, not go in a continuous circle. I know because ive fought more than just a couple and there are some that pretty much do nothing and let you kill them, then there are ones that actually RUN at you, use Plasma Accelerators, continuously roll to put in danger of the Beam turrets, use the boost turn.... seriously. Those two videos hardly define the whole experience.

I just finished a fight against one as an Assassination Target and its behavior was 10x more aggressive than the ones in both those videos put together.

Those videos didnt demonstrate how a specific module is is "OP". It showed that the first person pretty much got lucky as hell and ended up against a worthless NPC.

The second video, the person can fly. They are not noob. But, they did get lucky and found a Conda with Multi Cannons instead of all Beams. Cannons obviously do less damage verse shields and just by moving a little bit you can dodge the bullets even at close range, cannot do that verse lasers....... and the fact its from Gamma 1.05 which automatically makes it moot.



HURR HURR lets take two videos completely out of context and say "This is how it always is no matter what." Those two people didnt even appear to use all the Cells in one module because really they werent being hit much. I didnt see any rapid spamming like everyone seems to be complaining about.... what i do see is them working as intended. Ill be honest, i didnt even finish the first one because it is completely , worst example you could ever use.

How many in here have even accepted an Assassination mission? Or even encountered a random Python? Maybe i just really suck, but the game difficulty you guys are describing is nothing like what i see when i play.

Id uplooad videos for days, but it aint that easy since i have internet throttling and overcharges to worry about. But if it really needs to happen ill put up my own examples.

 

[Eldan Cross]

The video just shows the Ai needs to be tweaked for Elites to have a higher chance of the aggressive attitude.... or just you know, not go in a continuous circle. I know because ive fought more than just a couple and there are some that pretty much do nothing and let you kill them, then there are ones that actually RUN at you, use Plasma Accelerators, continuously roll to put in danger of the Beam turrets, use the boost turn.... seriously. Those two videos hardly define the whole experience.

I just finished a fight against one as an Assassination Target and its behavior was 10x more aggressive than the ones in both those videos put together.

Those videos didnt demonstrate how a specific module is is "OP". It showed that the first person pretty much got lucky as hell and ended up against a worthless NPC.

The second video, the person can fly. They are not noob. But, they did get lucky and found a Conda with Multi Cannons instead of all Beams. Cannons obviously do less damage verse shields and just by moving a little bit you can dodge the bullets even at close range, cannot do that verse lasers....... and the fact its from Gamma 1.05 which automatically makes it moot.



HURR HURR lets take two videos completely out of context and say "This is how it always is no matter what." Those two people didnt even appear to use all the Cells in one module because really they werent being hit much. I didnt see any rapid spamming like everyone seems to be complaining about.... what i do see is them working as intended. Ill be honest, i didnt even finish the first one because it is completely , worst example you could ever use.

How many in here have even accepted an Assassination mission? Or even encountered a random Python? Maybe i just really suck, but the game difficulty you guys are describing is nothing like what i see when i play.

Id uplooad videos for days, but it aint that easy since i have internet throttling and overcharges to worry about. But if it really needs to happen ill put up my own examples.

oh man elite/deadly laser pythons and elite laser fed ships, are SOOOO much HARDER than elite anacondas. and that's my opinion. while flying a viper you can somewhat kite the anaconda, but the other ones hurt a lot.

 

[fergal]

The video just shows the Ai needs to be tweaked for Elites to have a higher chance of the aggressive attitude.... or just you know, not go in a continuous circle. I know because ive fought more than just a couple and there are some that pretty much do nothing and let you kill them, then there are ones that actually RUN at you, use Plasma Accelerators, continuously roll to put in danger of the Beam turrets, use the boost turn.... seriously. Those two videos hardly define the whole experience.

I just finished a fight against one as an Assassination Target and its behavior was 10x more aggressive than the ones in both those videos put together.

Those videos didnt demonstrate how a specific module is is "OP". It showed that the first person pretty much got lucky as hell and ended up against a worthless NPC.

The second video, the person can fly. They are not noob. But, they did get lucky and found a Conda with Multi Cannons instead of all Beams. Cannons obviously do less damage verse shields and just by moving a little bit you can dodge the bullets even at close range, cannot do that verse lasers....... and the fact its from Gamma 1.05 which automatically makes it moot.

not sure what videos you are referring to, the two I've put in this thread are both form yesterday, not gamma.

HURR HURR lets take two videos completely out of context and say "This is how it always is no matter what." Those two people didnt even appear to use all the Cells in one module because really they werent being hit much. I didnt see any rapid spamming like everyone seems to be complaining about.... what i do see is them working as intended. Ill be honest, i didnt even finish the first one because it is completely , worst example you could ever use.

How many in here have even accepted an Assassination mission? Or even encountered a random Python? Maybe i just really suck, but the game difficulty you guys are describing is nothing like what i see when i play.

Id uplooad videos for days, but it aint that easy since i have internet throttling and overcharges to worry about. But if it really needs to happen ill put up my own examples.

I'e completed about 15 assassination missions, all on elite anacondas.
Only the last two, which are the videos I put up, are when I purchased a shield cell.

I've fought random pythons who interdict me, they are easier to kill than the anacondas. Their shields are weaker and so are their hulls. Both the anaconda and python have the pitch speed to nearly always face a viper.

There is no doubt the AI needs work, AI will never be as good as an actual player. The point I was making in the videos is you just get a free shield whenever you want one, not that this AI is no good.

I only had one shield cell module, but there is currently nothing stopping you loading up a ship with them. That equals unlimited shields if you remember to press a button.

Can't tell you what I would feel if the anaconda used one. Its hard enough to take down their shields, if I saw it spring back up to 100% I'd probably stop fighting them. How many shield refills can the anaconda hold?

I was perfectly happy with how combat felt without them. I suspected they were a bit OP, but until yesterday I hadn't used them. The "arguments" many in this thread made to keep them as is motivated me to try them.