ship interiors - will they happen

I knew you were going to talk about ramming the instant I posted that, but it was late and I was tired. I think you understood my POINT. The game offers existing tools to achieve these things. If you don't use those tools and then complain, you are objectively being unreasonable, simple as that.
No need to overuse 'objectively' especially in arguments with conveniently cut out logic. It makes them less convincing.

There was a time when you could only repair in stations, and there was no limpets. If to follow your incomplete logic - there is no need for limpets also. Yet we got them and they are good for builds that use them. Not all builds use them or have to use them. All ships break one way or the other. Just because game provides a way to deal with a problem is not a reason not to have an alternative, as with limpets for example. Especially if that alternative comes with extra gameplay players can enjoy.

If somehow you disagree with that complete logical version - then you're simply want to dictate to others how they should play, or you're disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing.
 
No need to overuse 'objectively' especially in arguments with conveniently cut out logic. It makes them less convincing.

There was a time when you could only repair in stations, and there was no limpets. If to follow your incomplete logic - there is no need for limpets also. Yet we got them and they are good for builds that use them. Not all builds use them or have to use them. All ships break one way or the other. Just because game provides a way to deal with a problem is not a reason not to have an alternative, as with limpets for example. Especially if that alternative comes with extra gameplay players can enjoy.

If somehow you disagree with that complete logical version - then you're simply want to dictate to others how they should play, or you're disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing.
Sorry you don't like my word use. Unfortunately, it's just the truth.

Now, back BEFORE repair limpets existed, they could have done interior repairs INSTEAD. That would have filled the same niche, and nowadays we could be arguing about adding repair limpets. But we can objectively say that interior repairs are inferior to limpet repairs. They have to be! Interior repairs wouldn't take anything but the player, while limpet repairs take the sacrifice of at least two optional slots, severely diminishing the other capabilities of the ship!

Again, this isn't to say I don't think that repairs couldn't exist anyway - there's plenty of room for roleplay or sub-optimal behaviors if they're cheap and easy enough to implement - it just has to be basically free, and interiors are by no means anything close to 'free'.

You need a broad, over-arching, and compelling reason for interiors to exist first. AFTER that, you can add all the frills and bells and whistles you want, like repairs, and cosmetics, crew, and so on. But like I said above, we can objectively assess the value of these things on their own merits, and the ROI just isn't there. You're talking about as much effort as colonization, with a daily usage time of maybe a few minutes, compared to multiple hours, for colonization.

That's why I think the only viable path forward is an engineering rework. Done properly, players could spend virtually unlimited time experimenting with their engineering, and it would also have exponential effects on things like exploration and exobiology. THAT could potentially justify it - but again, we're talking about a significant time and effort investment on a feature which, while unsatisfying, is at least functional already.
 
You can't make good money in a Cobra for example and yet? A Cobra is famous for both combat and hauling/ making credits in the Elite universe.
This is mainly because in the earlier games it was. A combination of things - especially in how ED balances freight and combat and travel time - mean that it doesn't really work except as a "best in size" in ED.

Elite 1: The Cobra III (with the cargo bay extension) has more cargo capacity than anything except a dedicated freighter (Python/Boa/Anaconda) and yet is also capable of being competitive in a fight.
(It fills roughly the niche the Python or Krait II does in ED)

FE2/FFE: while not quite as powerful, it's still sitting at a very good point in terms of combination of speed, capacity and weapons/outfit. The FE2 Asp is mostly a straight upgrade, but anything bigger than that that you're giving up the option to use military hyperdrives and seriously losing acceleration. If you're willing to compromise a bit on cargo, it can carry some serious firepower.
(Roughly fitting into the Krait Phantom niche in ED)

Elite Dangerous: it's a small pad ship with 2M2S weapon fit, excellent cargo and flexibility for its size but in any circumstance which doesn't require a small pad (or the all-terrain equivalent) then a medium multirole can do all the same things but more effectively. Much larger ships can be just as fast and jump just as far.
(The ED Cobra III roughly fits into the niche the Adder did in previous games: a nice upgrade from your genuine starter ship but probably not something you'll use for everything)
 
Sorry you don't like my word use. Unfortunately, it's just the truth.
False.

Now, back BEFORE repair limpets existed, they could have done interior repairs INSTEAD. ...
They could have made many things. Colonisation is released only now. There are many reasons and not just one for things to be the way they are. And now you want to argue about limpets, ridiculous.

Stretched out falseness again.
 
We can be 100% objective about this. Do the math, calculate how much ROI a feature will offer relative to its investment. Colonization, for example, generates something like 50 hours of content per station, minimum, not even accounting for time flying around finding rarer commodities. By the first benchmark it had already generated a total of something like 250,000 hours of player investment.

By contrast, what's the most we might expect out of the interiors people have proposed thus far? Even if we did EVERYTHING suggested(repairs, salvage, cosmetics, map tables/etc), we're still only looking at maybe a few minutes spent in your ship interior per day. That's hundreds of times slower - or, the ROI is hundreds of times worse.
I have not entered into a partnership with the purchase of ED. I am a customer, Frontier is the vendor. So why do I care about Frontier's ROI? Am I responsible for it? I'm not going to base my demands as a customer on whether they could threaten Frontier's existence. If they don't get their business together, then they're out of luck.

When you take the perspective of the company side the discussion is no longer about a specific content, but about what Frontier's finite resources should be used for. The whole thing than feels like a local council meeting debating whether to renovate the outdated public indoor swimming pool or build a new playground instead.

If you hold shares in Frontier, I could just about understand that. But to take the company's perspective without necessity and to align your own needs and ideas about product content with it is pretty weird. In a way, this makes you the best (most submissive) customer a company could wish for.
 
I have not entered into a partnership with the purchase of ED. I am a customer, Frontier is the vendor. So why do I care about Frontier's ROI? Am I responsible for it? I'm not going to base my demands as a customer on whether they could threaten Frontier's existence. If they don't get their business together, then they're out of luck.

When you take the perspective of the company side the discussion is no longer about a specific content, but about what Frontier's finite resources should be used for. The whole thing than feels like a local council meeting debating whether to renovate the outdated public indoor swimming pool or build a new playground instead.

If you hold shares in Frontier, I could just about understand that. But to take the company's perspective without necessity and to align your own needs and ideas about product content with it is pretty weird. In a way, this makes you the best (most submissive) customer a company could wish for.
I mean, you can 'demand' whatever you want - but they're a business. The only way they'll actually DO anything is if you present a compelling case for why it's in their own best interest to do it. Marketing, essentially, is what you're trying to do here; a key to sales is identifying a need and then offering something which satisfies that need. And again, to be clear, a need FOR THEM, not for you.

Colonization is perhaps an unfair comparison in many regards; thus far it's been something of a golden goose, with the massive amount of effort required paired with the ARX purchases on names. Even so, it offers a good idea of what we should aim for with any suggestions.
 
Here's an expanded idea for how Interiors could be worked into Ship Engineering, offering the sorts of scale that might be needed to make it all worthwhile.

Ship Interior engineering​

The problem with Ship Interiors is simple from a Developer's standpoint. The ROI just isn't there. Look at features like Colonization: For the first time, we can actually tell EXACTLY how much time a new feature generates. In the first week, about a billion tons of commodities got moved for colonization, according to Galnet. With 792 tons of cargo per load, that's about 250,000 hours of player time, in the first few weeks alone!

By contrast, something like ship interiors - even if you added EVERY feature people have thought of - would only give a bare fraction of that. Internal repairs, salvage, cosmetics, crew...all those things are things you do very infrequently. Repairs, for example, I typically spend maybe a few minutes a week doing. Salvage is similar. Cosmetics, also similar. Even if I did EVERYTHING that interiors offer, I'd be looking at maybe 15 minutes a week - compared to needing to invest at LEAST 10 hours a week to finish a large station in the required four weeks!

So you can see, the ROI just isn't there. What is needed is a large feature, something that interlinks with other aspects of gameplay on a broad level, something that can be used constantly and indefinitely.

But as I thought about it, I realized...we already have a place that's ripe for expansion.

Engineering.

After all, even though the current engineering isn't BAD, it's also not exactly something players dream of, you know? It's a necessary hurdle you need to get past to play the game, it's not really compelling or fun in its own right. At best, you might think of new builds to try, but even then, the actual engineering part is secondary.

I think that Engineering could actually offer the sort of content needed to make Interiors worthwhile - IF it were implemented correctly.

Nuts and Bolts - Tinkering​



Here's the basic idea. We already have examples, in Odyssey, of being able to cut open panels and see assorted materials arrayed inside. This would be the core principle of Engineering 2.0. Every module would have at least one panel that could be opened, to see the stuff inside. At a basic level, they'd all have an energy input, and an energy output. Between them could be placed a variety of different modules(engineering components), which would modify or change the energy flow.

For example, you open up a hardpoint's control panel. Inside, there are a bunch of 'G0' manufactured materials. You can pull them out, and replace them with G1 manufactured materials, giving you G1 engineering. Or, you can replace them with G5 manufactured materials, giving you G5 engineering. Human-made materials would be very consistent like this; you put in the required materials and you get the desired output. Engineers would do this for you, if you wanted them to, but you could also do it yourself.

Now, the tricky part here is that every engineering material should interact with every other engineering material, in a predictable and somewhat consistent, but also unexpected, manner. This would not always be as simple as, 'insert G5 material, get G5 result'. Sometimes, you might instead find that a G3 or G1 material enhances the power of another G5 material as much or more than using a G5 material there would. For example, putting a Heat Vane directly after a focus crystal, could multiply the strength of both. These are the things Engineers would know; that you could get the same engineering effect for a fraction the cost using these hidden synergies. But there would be more synergies than this, ones even the engineers don't know. But the only way to find out is via experimentation and tinkering.

This would also be how different effects are achieved. Combine the right materials in the right order, and you might get more ammo, or more damage, but never both at once.

Then, there would also be the non-human materials. These should be much more unpredictable, and even somewhat randomized, based on their source. Moreover, they should be ways to MODIFY other components, not be used on their own. For example, Iron could be used to enhance the integrity of a human component. You could take a chunk of iron, apply it to, say, a Heat Vent, and the heat vent is now more durable. But iron would also have other effects, hidden effects, based on where the iron was sourced. Iron from one planet might have some impurities that make it better or worse, or give it special characteristics, or make it work particularly well with one type of component. It would always do what it is supposed to, but it would also have additional features, hidden features, that must be discovered.

What does this achieve? It gives actual gameplay value to things like Exploration and Exobiology. No longer are they just about credits; every new planet you visit might have some new roll of the dice that makes the engineering materials sourced there incredibly valuable.

These effects could be discovered via a science lab inside your ship. In it, you can run tests and experiments on these materials to attempt to find their effects. For example, you might expose it to high heat for a prolonged period of time, and see how resistant to the heat it is. Or you might submerge it in acid, or electricity, or any number of other effects. This would take IRL time to do, so what you might do is go home(to your ship), start a bunch of experiments, and then go back to exploring for a bit, knowing that when you return, you'd have new data available to you. Worst case, this would at least enhance the value of whatever samples you have. And any useful effects, you could bookmark, so you would slowly build a catalogue of planets with useful effects, so you could return to find the materials you need.

However, planets should slowly be 'used up'. A planet that starts out plentiful with materials should reasonably be depleted over time if too many players are going there and harvesting everything in sight! So players would be encouraged to find their OWN harvesting grounds.

Summary​



I'm not going to lie, this would be a pretty major rework of Engineering. But, as far as I can tell, a fairly major feature is NEEDED to justify the existence of Ship Interiors. And once they're justified, you could THEN add all the other neat things people want from them, but which aren't enough on their own to justify their creation! Repairs, crew, salvage, all that stuff could be added in tandem, making interiors the sort of fully-fleshed-out feature a significant enough pool of players could want!
 
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Sure they did; the new ships effectively multiply existing content in many cases. The cobra Mk5, for example, is the only small ship large enough to allow effective trading to all those Odyssey settlements with only small pads. Its mere presence increases the number of places you can go by something like 33-50%. The Python Mk2 basically DOUBLES the number of pvp ships that are viable in the meta. The new ships are actually more than justified gameplay-wise, especially since they're just adding ONE new ship at a time, not adding interiors for ALL ships.
They're not needed, just nice to have.
 
Nuts and Bolts - Tinkering
The problem with that approach is that while experiementing can be fun for a while, sooner or later people will figure out the meta. From that point on it's only going to be a chore, as long as tinkering with those nuts and bolts to apply the mod takes longer than the couple of menu clicks of the current system. At the end of the day the game is mainly about flying our ships and any kind of minigame that's standing in the way of that will inevitably become boring.
 
The problem with that approach is that while experiementing can be fun for a while, sooner or later people will figure out the meta. From that point on it's only going to be a chore, as long as tinkering with those nuts and bolts to apply the mod takes longer than the couple of menu clicks of the current system. At the end of the day the game is mainly about flying our ships and any kind of minigame that's standing in the way of that will inevitably become boring.

That's where the randomization of exploration-sourced materials comes in. After all, the current system is equally a 'chore', where you need to travel around to a bunch of different guys to get those engineering effects and experimentals applied. The big expansion here is that you basically uncap the system. Rather than everyone having, you know, weapons with 70% extra damage, with the new system you've got everyone with AT LEAST 70% extra damage, and then the people who put in the extra effort to find the right stuff out in the black might have...who knows? 75%, 80%? Maybe you have it asymptote, so you could theoretically find materials allowing for arbitrarily increased power, but with exponentially more and more effort.

But each additional material would re-randomize the situation. You'd have to rebuild and rediscover how everything works together best all over again. And the fact that these materials are actually depleted over time means that people won't share what they've got, lest it be used up, so you directly counteract any potential 'meta'; a given GROUP might have a particular meta, based around their secret trove of super-materials they found on some planet 15kly away that they share with one another, but overall there wouldn't be one, because everyone would have slightly different effects available! You know, one person might find some Selenium that lets their weapons do an extra 10% damage if they're overcharged, while someone else might find some Polonium that lets their weapons have 25% extra ammo, or something. You'd have to build your ships around what super-effects you, personally, have available.

You would, of course, eventually hit a point of diminishing returns, but I think that's a general trend that's difficult to avoid. Colonization, for example, will eventually lose its appeal to the average player after they build a few systems, and they'll gradually fall off in terms of effort per week down to a baseline where maybe they do a few hours now and again.

But there would always be the possibility of discovering some new cool thing that you want to experiment with.
 
I can't fathom how anyone could want this instead of:
  • More stellar phenomena that we can discover while exploring
  • Cave systems to explore on planets and other planetary diversity
  • Expanding colonization with new ways to influence and profit from systems
  • Fixing/improving lighting, anti-aliasing, and shadows
  • More stuff to do on planets (more facilities, places to fight, FPS combat mechanics, etc, etc)
  • And much more I'm not thinking of right now
What I don't understand is how anyone can miss the obvious.Have you seen any forum posts, YouTube, Reddit, or X asking Frontier for any of the requests on your list? Well, I haven't. On the other hand, the community is only asking for ship interiors. I think it's pretty easy to understand.I repeat: I don't understand people who miss the obvious.
 
That's where the randomization of exploration-sourced materials comes in. After all, the current system is equally a 'chore', where you need to travel around to a bunch of different guys to get those engineering effects and experimentals applied. The big expansion here is that you basically uncap the system. Rather than everyone having, you know, weapons with 70% extra damage, with the new system you've got everyone with AT LEAST 70% extra damage, and then the people who put in the extra effort to find the right stuff out in the black might have...who knows? 75%, 80%? Maybe you have it asymptote, so you could theoretically find materials allowing for arbitrarily increased power, but with exponentially more and more effort.

But each additional material would re-randomize the situation. You'd have to rebuild and rediscover how everything works together best all over again. And the fact that these materials are actually depleted over time means that people won't share what they've got, lest it be used up, so you directly counteract any potential 'meta'; a given GROUP might have a particular meta, based around their secret trove of super-materials they found on some planet 15kly away that they share with one another, but overall there wouldn't be one, because everyone would have slightly different effects available! You know, one person might find some Selenium that lets their weapons do an extra 10% damage if they're overcharged, while someone else might find some Polonium that lets their weapons have 25% extra ammo, or something. You'd have to build your ships around what super-effects you, personally, have available.

You would, of course, eventually hit a point of diminishing returns, but I think that's a general trend that's difficult to avoid. Colonization, for example, will eventually lose its appeal to the average player after they build a few systems, and they'll gradually fall off in terms of effort per week down to a baseline where maybe they do a few hours now and again.

But there would always be the possibility of discovering some new cool thing that you want to experiment with.
By 'chore' I specifically meant having to walk around on foot and doing whatever screwdriver minigame needs to be done.
Ofc the current system is a chore as well (the material collecting part), although the status quo right now is kind of sufferable since we are all swimming in most kind of materials.

As for randomness or secret recipes, I'm strictly against all of that stuff. Level playing field is more important, so there needs to be a well defined max stat for each mod.
 
By 'chore' I specifically meant having to walk around on foot and doing whatever screwdriver minigame needs to be done.
Ofc the current system is a chore as well (the material collecting part), although the status quo right now is kind of sufferable since we are all swimming in most kind of materials.

As for randomness or secret recipes, I'm strictly against all of that stuff. Level playing field is more important, so there needs to be a well defined max stat for each mod.
What I'd aim for is for the playing field to be MOSTLY equal(so that skill ultimately is the most important factor), but to also allow for infinite growth, to always have SOME way to improve your ship. That's really good for the RPG aspects of the game.

It doesn't need to be huge; getting an extra 0.1% damage doesn't actually do much in practice, but it still is worth infinitely more than an extra billion credits when you already have a hundred billion you're not spending.

But the key here is that it adds actual, real VALUE to many activities which are currently mostly valueless.
 
What I'd aim for is for the playing field to be MOSTLY equal(so that skill ultimately is the most important factor), but to also allow for infinite growth, to always have SOME way to improve your ship. That's really good for the RPG aspects of the game.

It doesn't need to be huge; getting an extra 0.1% damage doesn't actually do much in practice, but it still is worth infinitely more than an extra billion credits when you already have a hundred billion you're not spending.

But the key here is that it adds actual, real VALUE to many activities which are currently mostly valueless.

If it's uncapped, then even at 0.1% steps some people are going to grind out 10%, then 20%, which is very significant. Since ED is also a competitive game, RPers will have to find another way to RP, sorry. :)
 
If it's uncapped, then even at 0.1% steps some people are going to grind out 10%, then 20%, which is very significant. Since ED is also a competitive game, RPers will have to find another way to RP, sorry. :)

Think of it more as diminishing returns. So you know, each additional 'level' gets you like 0.5% at first, then 0.4%, then 0.3%, and so on and so forth, with exponentially more and more effort. Quite a few games already do this with Prestige systems.

So while yes, in infinite time you could eventually get infinite benefits, in practical terms most people would cap out after a while. At that point, the main difference would be which particular domains YOU are higher on. Like, normally going for Sturdy might not be great, but if your progress in finding better mats for Sturdy is way better than Overcharged, then maybe you might use a less common engineering effect instead!
 
What I don't understand is how anyone can miss the obvious.Have you seen any forum posts, YouTube, Reddit, or X asking Frontier for any of the requests on your list? Well, I haven't. On the other hand, the community is only asking for ship interiors. I think it's pretty easy to understand.I repeat: I don't understand people who miss the obvious.
I've been around since launch so I've seen forum/reddit posts on almost every topic. I've seen posts for and against ship interiors. I've also seen FDev's official statements (2021 and 2023) that they have no plans to support ship interiors.

Any time ship interiors come up I try to voice my opposition. That way FD doesn't get the wrong impression that requests for ship interiors are unanimous. There are many in this community (the majority IMO) who either don't care about ship interiors or don't want it prioritized over other things. Not everyone posts on forums and reddit though.
 
Think of it more as diminishing returns. So you know, each additional 'level' gets you like 0.5% at first, then 0.4%, then 0.3%, and so on and so forth, with exponentially more and more effort. Quite a few games already do this with Prestige systems.

So while yes, in infinite time you could eventually get infinite benefits, in practical terms most people would cap out after a while. At that point, the main difference would be which particular domains YOU are higher on. Like, normally going for Sturdy might not be great, but if your progress in finding better mats for Sturdy is way better than Overcharged, then maybe you might use a less common engineering effect instead!
Sorry, still not convinced.
Why should I need to suffer the extra mass of sturdy, while someone else has the same damage in a faster ship?
That would just reintroduce the stupid randomness of engineering V1.0. It took so long to get rid of that crap, let's not start it over again for some stupid RPing reason. I can't believe that RPers cannot possibly find another way to enjoy the game.
 
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