And yet you have zero evidence to support this. Just vibes.
ship interiors - will they happen
- Thread starter Woakes
- Start date
It's a direct quote mate, don't shoot the messenger.
That's just a few hundred people and in no way represents the community as a whole.
You're telling me to leave the game because I disagree with you about a feature request? And I'm the one hurting the community. Because I disagree with you about a feature request.
Actually seven thousand my dude ...
And given the general playerbase, ESPECIALLY at the the time to be roughly that (Maybe around two thirds of that now),
well ... it actually DOES represent the community QUITE well
But I guess such primitive math will not count as "evidence" to you now will it
²...
Still you should really get your info together XD
HAHA!
No, why would I
All I did was suggest an alternative based on what you would seem to prefer.
But I guess you are not the kind of guy for EvE huh? Maybe NoMansSky, you only directly pilot relatively small ships there with no doors or anything of the sort, so
?And I never said that you are hurting the "community",
the question is about Elite itself ... which is arguably MUCH more important.
PS:
This is like trying to argue with someone that proclaims the sky to be green and then claims:
"wHeRe iS yOUr EViDeNCE tHAt tHe SkY is BLuE?!"
...
There is ONLY one serious competitor for Ship Interiors,
and that is actual atmo. Planets.
And even those are VERY LIKELY already behind Ship Interiors at this time.
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I don't want it instead of, I want it as well as. I'd like the features that were trailed longest ago to come along first please
I missed his follow-up. It's 7,000 indeed.
No one asked you for an alternative.
You haven't provided any evidence.
I would have voted Yes in that poll. I'd love to have ship interiors in Elite. Why would anyone say No?
You've been here from the beginning. You know they've punted on so many early commitments. Unfortunately.I don't want it instead of, I want it as well as. I'd like the features that were trailed longest ago to come along first please
Do you really think they should just implement these commitments in order? Or do what's best for the game/community?
It felt like it might be useful information
Well, how about you just LOOK into the internet then.
Just like all you would need to do to see if the sky is blue, is to wait for a day without clouds and LOOK up ...
You don't want to do that?
Well then I'm afraid nothing I can link or say here will do.
Still I will try, behold ONE link (I could send many more)
look into the comments, read what the players want ...
And you can rinse-and-repeat that for COUNTLESS other links and threads XD
Now while yes, there ARE also a few that speak against them, they only do so specifically BECAUSE SO MANY speak in favor
And the ratio is ONCE AGAIN ~ 97 to 3
It is really a very fitting ratio ......
...
I'm starting to notice a pattern
So how about you provide "evidence" for your suggestion that a 'silent majority' which does not post on forums and reddit etc.
would either "not want" or "not care" about Ship Interiors. Huh? Because according to very "Silent-majority-indicative" boards such as YT-Comments,
the oposite would once again seem to be the case
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I think Frontier will do what's best for Frontier and if we're lucky that will be good for the game/community too.
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Only question is, does Fronter really know what is best for Frontier
Guess there is at least some hope that they've learned from their many failures and will now at least listen to the community a little XD
... There are some good signs after all.
Frontier have already stated they are turtling into their comfort zone of CMSs. Colonoscopy is just clear evidence they are true to the stated goals to their shareholders. What they said during the KS is another matter.
It's weird to me that when someone comes up with a suggestion that actually integrates all these different things into one coherent suggestion, all of a sudden nobody wants to talk about it.
Let's pretend for a moment that the only way you could possibly see Interiors actually happen is if they did my proposal from earlier. Which is to say, a wholesale revamp of engineering, merging it with exploration and exobiology, adding randomized effects and Prestige factors, and everything else I mentioned.
Would you still want interiors, if all of that was necessary for it to happen?
Let's pretend for a moment that the only way you could possibly see Interiors actually happen is if they did my proposal from earlier. Which is to say, a wholesale revamp of engineering, merging it with exploration and exobiology, adding randomized effects and Prestige factors, and everything else I mentioned.
Would you still want interiors, if all of that was necessary for it to happen?
Forgive me uhh:
Could you link it again? Maybe I missed it.
Normally I am the last person not to talk about something here if there is something to talk about.
Post in thread 'ship interiors - will they happen' https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/ship-interiors-will-they-happen.625789/post-10583756
OMG that's a long post
How did I miss that
Will read it this evening ...
But if your idea is to essentially rework a lot of existing stuff in order to make Ship Interior Gameplay more viable,
then I see no issue with that on principle, allthough I am convinced that Ship Interiors could funciton well even without such reworks.
But I will read it this evening
I mean I obviously would say no. The issue has never been "do we want ship interiors" it's "what are ship interiors worth?". If ship interiors were an easy change that didn't supplant other potential features then it would be a no-brainer and I don't think anyone would disagree.
But ship interiors become a problem if:
- They cause other features to get sidelined, and/or
- They force people into mechanics that they're not interested in
I like your idea of tinkering but not necessarily tied to RNG and engineering. It would be cool to, say, "boost" my Capacitor output which would also increase heat. Every ship has a base temperature value and running certain modules increases that heat. For example my Corvette might have a base temperature of around 40%. What if I could boost my Capacitor module output at the cost of this base temperature value? I could tune it all the way up to 80% heat. Now I have to very careful about overheating because my window for more heat is much more narrow. But as a benefit my Capacitor output is greatly increased. And I can tune these values up/down as needed so it's not permanent change. Requiring materials (of any grade) to do this would be annoying IMO.
The only problem is that none of these technically require ship interiors. You could do all of this with the menu system just like synthesis. Which honestly is one of the difficulties of justifying ship interiors with features.
and how it was done is quite clear indication that none of the interesting features community wants & waits for are even on a horizon. Can't shake this feeling from Colonisation announcement, and now with how it is on release almost cements it.
I already read a bit of the first paragraphs and if by ROI you mean "Return of Investment" and you say that with Ship Interiors that would just be "not there".
Then your starting premisse is already simply 100% wrong. No offense but have ONE look at Warframe!
The ROI would 100% be there EVEN if there was absolutely NO gameplay whatsoever attached.
I can name at least 10 people on this forum alone which would likely spend 30 Bugs + on such cosmetics XD
But yeah ... gtg for now <D
ROI (Return on Investment) in B2P games is not affected much by the time player spends doing/grinding/farming something in the game, unless there is a store solution to 'buy and don't grind'. Elite doesn't have that. For Subscription games - yes, it can be affected by time spend in some cases.
MAU (Monthly active users) metric can be directly increased by the time players need to spend grinding, at least up to a point of each player capacity to endure the grind. It is an important metric to gauge players engagement, but in this specific case - it has minimal to no influence on ROI, as there is not option to 'Pay to avoid the grind'.
ROI with Colonisation depends on game sales to new players and microtransactions for all existing players (renames, future stations skins, other parts of the game). If ROI was the most important thing for the whole feature, and nothing else would matter - the feature won't be locked behind the hauling grind, and had other ways to access/interact with it to open it to a wider audience of players. The fact that it is not could indicate that Frontier wants to balance the feature with the game world (and not to mindlessly litter around), and maybe to control their own server expenses in the long run (indicated by recent servers/maintenance news).
This short version should be enough to indicate how 'ROI <-> Length of time to do the gameplay loop' has no meaningful interaction, compared to other relations and factors.
ROI with Ship Interiors depends on the same as with Colonisation - new players buying the game, and all players potential to engage in microtransactions for cosmetics. The bigger informational boom the feature release creates - the higher the potential for new players to buy the game. The more desireable new feature is - the bigger the amount of old players who will return to check it out. Arguing against popularity of Ship Interiors at that point is very silly, and more along the lines of denying reality.
Original version of the Engineering had two combined problems - grind and RNG of the outcome of that grind. These two problems not only enhanced one another, but also made the feature very daunting after the first try. Because the feature provides a direct power increase - any player who wants to progress with the power, for whatever reason - has to engage with it, no matter if they are enjoying it or not. As latest engineering rework clearly indicates (and countless discussions before) - the majority of players did not enjoy it and did it only because there was no other way.
In multiplayer games, in which player power can have direct or indirect effect on other players, any feature that allows power progression will always and inevitably be min-maxed. There is no way around it, it was proven by all multiplayer games with power progression over more than two decades. When features like that are introduced - they could be exciting, but after the initial freshness goes away (it always does, there is no way of keeping it) - only the need to use it is left, and if it is not fun to use it - it becomes a bad feature that players have to endure.
Prestige-like everlasting features has two main approaches:
- Continuous power progression. Only used in games where players interactions with each other do not exist (single player) or these interactions are not in any direct competitive way.
- Variety progression. Used in general multiplayer games. It doesn't give any extra power progression that cannot be achieved without it, but it can provide a variation of tools to use or cosmetics, etc.
- Alts empowerments and ease of many characters play, etc. are not factors to consider for Elite or your idea.
Continues power progression in games with direct player interactions/competition can exist ONLY if there are unavoidable mechanics that GUARANTEE the loss of that progression to level the playing field. Otherwise, no matter how slow that progression is - it's going to overshadow any other aspect of the game, and it's going to become the main activity to always chase it.
For example, Eve Online - it doesn't have a guaranteed loss of power progression, but it is highly likely that player can loose what they've got, and even that is not enough to justify having a endless continuous power progression, and in that game there is always a stop level which players cannot go above.
No amount of diminishing returns will help - if there is a way to accumulate more power over any period of time it will create a constant need for it. With RNG on top - it will always create a frustration of randomly prolonged grind because it is something completely out of player control.
The main problem here - it makes Interiors extremely expensive to produce, because for something like this - Ship Interiors models have to be absolutely complete, every single module model, every single room and place for each and every one of them. No other ideas (reasonable ideas) deal with something like this for that specific reason, especially if ROI is an important factor to consider.
Something like that could be interesting if the main and only activity in the game was - Elite Engineering and the whole game was about tinkering with how the ship is.
Elite has variety of activities. Engineering is a feature of 'means to an end', something extra to make a ship better in what player wants to do in that ship. That part 'what player wants to do in that ship' is the most important.
If the amount of possible recipes is fixed:
- Experimentations will take some time, but eventually players are going to figure them out
- Then, out of all recipes, only the best ones would have any importance
- Then, players would go after the same recipes over and over again, just as it happens right now
If recipes are constantly changing, and there is RNG:
- There is always a finite number of relations between components
- All of the effects eventually are going to be figured out, and the best relations are going to be determined
- Then players would go after only the best effects/relations
- RNG of the process would become nothing more than frustration, because there will be no more discovery/experimentation at that point.
If you would constantly add new recipes and relations to keep it going, then it'll make this activity (to chaise it) into main activity of the game that players would have to do instead of playing and using what they've built in other parts of the game. Also, it'll create bigger and bigger divide between new and old players, so if one would expand it infinitely that divide is going to become infinite with no possibility to catch up.
The main goal of Engineering is to add an extra layer to outfitting your ship for a specific use you want to do with it, so the ship and outfit ideas can perform better in that activity. The process of engineering will always be secondary to the main gameplay of the game - other main activities.
As mentioned before - all recipes and relations will be discovered eventually, and the best possible options will be determined.
You may want to gatekeep it with something like - only one place has some specific variation and expect other players not to share it - aside from that being not a fair game design, it can't work in Elite because of how the game is. Source can be tracked (the are tools for that), game modes makes it impossible to block an access to it. So all such gatekeeping will achieve is - prolong the inevitable discovery the best options and add frustrating RNG to the whole process. The best solution for problems like this - is to avoid creating them in the first place, because any possible solution after will be just a band aid that makes them worse and worse in the long run.
All that was one of the reasons why RNG was removed from Engineering. Introducing it back, and even more of it with even more complexities and problems it could cause - won't go well with any player that didn't like RNG in engineering in the first place (majority of players).
Also, all the extra variations for materials and availability only on specific planets - means that there is a need to make significant changes to systems that governs planets/materials generation (Stellar Forge probably).
This is a good example of how solving a problem is not better then not creating a problem in the first place.
To have an economy of materials for ships/equipment, with scarcity and limited availability, will only work is ships/equipment can be lost. For example, Eve Online - there is always the need to get materials to produce because produced things are lost much more often then not. Introducing something like that in Elite wont work for way too many obvious reasons.
On paper this idea (quoted) could look good - you want to restrict players, so there is always the need to restart the process of discovery again, or at the very least - slow down the process of power progression.
In reality it is very different:
- There will be always a finite number of available options. If the source is not replenishable and/or distances to get upgrades are going to become insanely big, less players are going to be using or experimenting with new equipment, new player will never be able to reasonably catch up and the game will be in a permanent state "it's to late to start". If sources are replenishable, then you only artificially extending the grind that is not going to be fun after the initial discovery.
- If you want to try to make infinite number of options, the consequences are described above.
Ship Interiors is the major feature, there are many reason to have them - original vision, immersion, monetization, gameplay possibilities, attracting more players and wider audience, etc. etc.
On one fundamental reasoning I completely agree with you - Ship Interiors as a feature need to have something to do with/in them. Although playing decorator is already HUGE both for players and ROI, I would like more gameplay so Interiors could attract a wider audience.
You clearly understand that. Your idea looks like you either didn't account for various connections/dynamics and pitfalls, or you've dismissed them as non-important when they actually are. If you could rework your idea with provided feedback and extra information in replies you got here - it could be a good addition to what we're all discussing here - how to make Ship Interiors an interesting and compelling feature.
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No.
Well not in this game, your proposal feels to me something that would sit better in a whole new version of the game, ED2 aka Elite V, where it could be coded in from the start rather than patched in to so many existing features.