ship interiors - will they happen

[Lukaz_Chrom]

If Elite shields had a function like that, a crewmate using ship interiors (i.e. someone who needs to run around inside the ship on foot, from one side to another in hundreds of meters large ships, while the direction of incoming fire is constantly changing from one fraction of a second to the next) would probably be the least effective way in the world to do it. What the hell is an on-foot crewmate supposed to do to increase shield strength on the right side of the ship, for example? Go there to try and cover the ship using their own body?

If it's only pressing buttons from the copilot seat, then it's not something that requires ship interiors. It would not even require a copilot, as long as the pilot was given a couple of new keybinds.

We aren't asking for smth like that.
And you are once again thinking about a castle XD
Just a few rooms man

 

[DemiserofD]

Are you purposefully ignoring my continously brought up points about Ship Repiar XD
Such as first and foremost the idea of repairing the Generator ?
Not to mention, the "poking" would be comparatively minimal.
HELL, you wouldn't really have to poke at all if you were ok with walking a minor extra-mile.
You could simply ignore the AFMU as a last resort. No real harm done.
Ship Interiors would be great even without any "poking" at all.

Something like Ship Repair would be pretty difficult(possibly impossible) to balance. It can't be faster than using repair limpets, or you would have no reason to carry repair limpets at all - but if it's slower than repair limpets, it's not going to be worth doing.

Repairs are slow. A class 7 repair limpet controller repairs 4.5 hull integrity per second, and your average combat ship has around 2500 armor integrity. That means it takes around 9 minutes to repair a ship fully. And bear in mind, that's a class 7 repair limpet; on-foot repairs are definitely not going to be faster than that, or why would you ever carry a repair limpet controller?

The same is generally true of module repairs. A Class-7 Grade-A AFMU repairs 0.28 module integrity per second, and has a total repair capacity of about 270. That means you can just about repair two internal modules, and it'll take about 16 minutes to do it. On-foot repairs are definitely not going to be faster than that, or why ever bother carrying an AFMU?

But with SCO, it it is very rare to take more than about 3 minutes to get to a station and get your repairs done instantly. One minute to jump to a system with a station, and 2 minutes or less to get to a station for repairs. And that repairs ALL your systems at once, plus rearm and such. And of course, you couldn't use Ship Interior repairs while you're in the middle of an active fight, either, so basically the only place repairs will be practical, is when you're out exploring, where you're hardly ever going to get damaged anyway.

 

[Coolgroove]

If Elite shields had a function like that, a crewmate using ship interiors (i.e. someone who needs to run around inside the ship on foot, from one side to another in hundreds of meters large ships, while the direction of incoming fire is constantly changing from one fraction of a second to the next) would probably be the least effective way in the world to do it. What the hell is an on-foot crewmate supposed to do to increase shield strength on the right side of the ship, for example? Go there to try and cover the ship using their own body?

If it's only pressing buttons from the copilot seat, then it's not something that requires ship interiors. It would not even require a copilot, as long as the pilot was given a couple of new keybinds.

Yeah, something like that would be very silly and a needless complication. At least nothing is required for that, and that itself is also probably not required.

 

[ꝁestrel]

Well for them to exist - they need to be developed first, just as any other feature. It's completely fine that you want other features more. In the end, one way or the other, it'll come down to 'are the more players who want Interiors or some other feature', and right now observations across various platforms indicate that there are more players (both old and potential new) who want Interiors.

I'm okay with them adding features I don't want. Thargoids were never particularly interesting to me and I think it's great they were added.

Ship interiors are different:

• They serve no purpose other than RP walking around and decorating rooms.
• They don't intersect with other game systems and have no impact on the galaxy.
• Very few people are going to interact with them after the first month.

People in this thread (including you) are bending over backwards to come up with "features" that would benefit from ship interiors. Ship boarding, science labs, ship repair minigames, and more. The only way you can justify ship interiors is by coming up with more features on top of them.

If the feature can't be useful on its own and relies on years of development to be useful... that alone should make it low priority.

If by this way you mean not the same connections as Colonisation - yes, it is a different feature that is going to connect different things/systems.

Being able to walk around on your own ship doesn't intersect with any other game systems or the galaxy at large.

For the examples you picked - engineering can have extra options with manual adjustments, new systems can have derelict/disabled ships to explore, wrecks, signal sources to rescue someone or pillage or do something in them.

But that's not what the initial ship interior release will look like. Those are all half baked ideas that would come much later (if at all). And I personally don't want to wait multiple years to get meaningful gameplay.

You'll be happy RP walking around your ship while everyone else waits for actual gameplay features. No thank you.

On that we most definitely disagree then. Not the cohesion or fluidity by itself, but new additions to the game either need to have it, or need to add it to where the game is lacking it.

Meh. Odyssey was released without support for VR. I think this cohesion and fluidity thing is out the window at this point.

Doesn't matter how new feature gets it's gameplay, or what theory is about where that gameplay comes from. Only the fact that every new feature has gameplay is important, because that is what players do when they are playing the game.

What does matter is how long it takes and what other systems are neglected in order to have it.

It really doesn't matter what you personally want. What matters is giving the playerbase something engaging to actually do. That will help keep the game alive.

You might not like hauling but colonization has created a huge amount of activity in the game. This is exactly what Elite needed. Walking around your own ship (what you really care about - let's be honest) is only beneficial to a small % of you that want to roleplay.

Nope. Overwhelming majority of gameplay ideas for Ship Interiors don't do any poking at existing system. From realistic ones - only repair does, and it does it without replacing or forcing anything, just extra options, and maybe a less quick and convenient alternative that provides much more immersion. There are a few ideas that expand on possibilities of existing gameplay, and many that add new.

I mean FDev have already officially told you.

They said on their stream that there's no point in adding ship interiors because there wouldn't be any gameplay associated with that. People will walk around their ships a few times and never do it again. FDev said this. Not me.

Why do you think they said it? Because they know what's possible with ship interiors. They know what they're capable of actually adding to the game. They know that if they actually add ship interiors then all they can do is allow you to walk around.

 

[galahad2069]

We aren't asking for smth like that.
And you are once again thinking about a castle XD
Just a few rooms man

The poster I was replying to was asking something like that, not you.
And it would not make sense even if the whole interior was no larger than a couple of feet around a toilet seat.

 

[Lukaz_Chrom]

Something like Ship Repair would be pretty difficult(possibly impossible) to balance. It can't be faster than using repair limpets, or you would have no reason to carry repair limpets at all - but if it's slower than repair limpets, it's not going to be worth doing.

Repairs are slow. A class 7 repair limpet controller repairs 4.5 hull integrity per second, and your average combat ship has around 2500 armor integrity. That means it takes around 9 minutes to repair a ship fully. And bear in mind, that's a class 7 repair limpet; on-foot repairs are definitely not going to be faster than that, or why would you ever carry a repair limpet controller?

The same is generally true of module repairs. A Class-7 Grade-A AFMU repairs 0.28 module integrity per second, and has a total repair capacity of about 270. That means you can just about repair two internal modules, and it'll take about 16 minutes to do it. On-foot repairs are definitely not going to be faster than that, or why ever bother carrying an AFMU?

But with SCO, it it is very rare to take more than about 3 minutes to get to a station and get your repairs done instantly. One minute to jump to a system with a station, and 2 minutes or less to get to a station for repairs. And that repairs ALL your systems at once, plus rearm and such. And of course, you couldn't use Ship Interior repairs while you're in the middle of an active fight, either, so basically the only place repairs will be practical, is when you're out exploring, where you're hardly ever going to get damaged anyway.

WT*
I am not talking about ANY of this XD

Ship Interiors would likely only be accessible when NOT in combat.
Personally I really hope for the ability to access them while traveling in a straight line but I'd be 100% happy about only being allowed to access them in stand-still too.

Now granted, when someone talks abuot Ship Repair and imagines being able to run through an Entire Tier-3 Ship and meticulously repair every individually laied out part ...
Yeah ... you are right, (awesome as that would be) that will 99.999% not happen!
BUT:
What I am talking about is the abilitiy to repair SOME DEFAULT moduels AT BEST!
And realistically: Probably only the Generator and the AFMU (so we don't have to bring a second one [ideally, I think AFMU should become a default ability of every Ship]).
And minium-case: Not even the AFMU, just the Generator. THAT would already be enough!

Why do people so often think of a mountain when all we are really talking about is an ant-hill

 

[DemiserofD]

snip

I've gotta ask...when's the last time you used your fleet carrier interior? Because that's basically what you want, and I've used mine a grand total of, like, once in the past year.

Honestly, I wish Fdev would tell us how often people use that space, because that would be a perfect indication of how much people would use a purely roleplay-focused interior.

 

[Lukaz_Chrom]

I've gotta ask...when's the last time you used your fleet carrier interior? Because that's basically what you want, and I've used mine a grand total of, like, once in the past year.

Honestly, I wish Fdev would tell us how often people use that space, because that would be a perfect indication of how much people would use a purely roleplay-focused interior.

You CAN'T compare a fleet-carrier with your actual personal ship.
(Using Warframe-terminology now) That would be like comparing your Railjack to your Orbiter XD

 

[DemiserofD]

WT*
I am not talking about ANY of this XD

Ship Interiors would likely only be accessible when NOT in combat.
Personally I really hope for the ability to access them while traveling in a straight line but I'd be 100% happy about only being allowed to access them.

Now granted, when someone talks abuot Ship Repair and imagines being able to run through an Entire Tier-3 Ship and meticulously repair every individually laied out part ...
Yeah ... you are right, (awesome as that would be) that will 99.999% not happen!
BUT:
What I am talking about is the abilitiy to repair SOME DEFAULT moduels AT BEST!
And realistically: Probably only the Generator and the AFMU (so we don't have to bring a second one [ideally, I think AFMU should become a default ability of every Ship]).
And minium-case: Not even the AFMU, just the Generator. THAT would already be enough!

Why do people so often think of a mountain when all we are really talking about is an ant-hill

My point is... why?

You're talking about adding a new and expensive feature that does nothing we can't already do, does it worse than we can already do, and probably will barely ever be used.

That's my core struggle with Interiors as a whole. They need a reason to exist that isn't circular. People seem to want them because they want them, and then come up with reasons they should exist that ultimately just circle back around to the assumption that they SHOULD exist.

Now, IF they already existed, and stuff like this could be added with minimal additional investment, then sure, why not? But that's not where we're at, you know?

 

[Coolgroove]

Something like Ship Repair would be pretty difficult(possibly impossible) to balance. It can't be faster than using repair limpets, or you would have no reason to carry repair limpets at all - but if it's slower than repair limpets, it's not going to be worth doing.

Ohh that reasoning again. So, balancing it is not much harder than figuring out how much is 2 + 2. It can't be faster than limpets because player would need to get out and do something somewhere in person. Not every ship/outfit idea has repair limpets, AMFU in them. Not every action in the game needs to be looed at from a 'min/max more efficient' point of view, some options can be slower, less convenient and take more actions to do - which is good for a non-conflicting alternative that nobody is forced to do but has an option to do if they find it enjoyable (or be happy that there is that option in some unexpected circumstances).

 

[DemiserofD]

Ohh that reasoning again. So, balancing it is not much harder than figuring out how much is 2 + 2. It can't be faster than limpets because player would need to get out and do something somewhere in person. Not every ship/outfit idea has repair limpets, AMFU in them. Not every action in the game needs to be looed at from a 'min/max more efficient' point of view, some options can be slower, less convenient and take more actions to do - which is good for a non-conflicting alternative that nobody is forced to do but has an option to do if they find it enjoyable (or be happy that there is that option in some unexpected circumstances).

If a ship doesn't have an AFMU or repair limpets, it's because they didn't need them. If you need repairs, and don't have repairs, it's ALWAYS going to be faster to just travel to a station with repairs. That's just the nature of travel in Elite, sorry to say.

You are trying to design for a niche that simply doesn't exist.

 

[Lukaz_Chrom]

My point is... why?

Because of the plethora of reasons already listed.

You're talking about adding a new and expensive feature that does nothing we can't already do, does it worse than we can already do, and probably will barely ever be used.

What the hell?
This version of Ship Repair wouldn't be expensive at all XD
You get up from your chair, enter the Machine-Room, whip out your tool and repair a few spots on the Generator
That's all.

That's my core struggle with Interiors as a whole. They need a reason to exist that isn't circular. People seem to want them because they want them, and then come up with reasons they should exist that ultimately just circle back around to the assumption that they SHOULD exist.

You are not entirely wrong when you say "People want them because they want them".
People want fast-foods too just because they want them. Is that supposed to be a counter-argument XD ?
For FDevs decision-maker branch, it will be about $ at the end of the day (in theory ...).
And Ship Repair, even if but minimal, would give a valid reason to visit your Ship Interiors "more than once",
and thus further enforce your desire to decorate them [For Arx ofc ...]

Now, IF they already existed, and stuff like this could be added with minimal additional investment, then sure, why not? But that's not where we're at, you know?

Actually that is PRECISELY where we're at
1. Cockpits already exist as far as I'm aware.
2. Interior Rooms already exist on Stations, Carriers, Outposts etc. as far as I'm aware.
3. Most Ships already have doors and were designed with "Interiors in mind" as far as I'm aware.

It would NOT be "minimal" effort IF we compare it to something like, just adding a few more bobbleheads yes!
BUT it would 100% be "minimal" effort if we compare it to say ... actual atmo. Planets XD

Not to mention the unbeatable potentail profit margin ofc ...

 

[ꝁestrel]

My point is... why?

You're talking about adding a new and expensive feature that does nothing we can't already do, does it worse than we can already do, and probably will barely ever be used.

That's my core struggle with Interiors as a whole. They need a reason to exist that isn't circular. People seem to want them because they want them, and then come up with reasons they should exist that ultimately just circle back around to the assumption that they SHOULD exist.

Now, IF they already existed, and stuff like this could be added with minimal additional investment, then sure, why not? But that's not where we're at, you know?

I have a theory.

My theory is that all they really want is the immersion from walking around their ships. All of this other stuff (repairing, boarding, EVA, science labs, weapon racks) are just trying to justify the existence of that basic thing. That's why the additional feature suggestions sound so redundant and circular.

In fact none of them actually require ship interiors when you think about it. Except for boarding obviously.

They could even add EVA without ship interiors. Which would actually be pretty cool. Think on-foot salvage/repair but doing it in EVA. Adding that alone would be so much better than ship interiors because it would connect to all the other gameplay systems really well. They could even add derelict stations that you EVA into since the stations already exist.

 

[Lukaz_Chrom]

I have a theory.

My theory is that all they really want is the immersion from walking around their ships. All of this other stuff (repairing, boarding, EVA, science labs, weapon racks) are just trying to justify the existence of that basic thing. That's why the additional feature suggestions sound so redundant and circular.

That's not a theory, even I clearly said so before.
So all you'd really have to do is read XD
However, Ship Repair, even if limited, is neither "redundant nor circular".

It would be an awesome feature for Explorers and Perfectionists alike.
Having your Generator at 100% would actually be awesome for everyone.

 

[DemiserofD]

Because of the plethora of reasons already listed.

Allow me to clarify: Why should we add a second version of repairing, when we already have one, and the new one cannot be better than the old one, because it doesn't require an optional slot investment?

This version of Ship Repair wouldn't be expensive at all XD

Expensive in terms of game development.

And Ship Repair, even if but minimal, would give a valid reason to visit your Ship Interiors "more than once",

Not as they've been described here. If they are worse than using dedicated modules or repairing via stations, they would barely ever be used, and would not be used much or at all.

BUT it would 100% be "minimal" effort if we compare it to say ... actual atmo. Planets XD

Given that full atmo planets would require 2-4+ years of development, that's not saying much.

 

[galahad2069]

What I am talking about is the abilitiy to repair SOME DEFAULT moduels AT BEST!
And realistically: Probably only the Generator and the AFMU (so we don't have to bring a second one [ideally, I think AFMU should become a default ability of every Ship]).

Those situations when you desperately need to repair the power plant or the AFMU are so abysmally rare that you can safely call them nonexistent.

 

[Lukaz_Chrom]

Those situations when you desperately need to repair the power plant or the AFMU is so abysmally rare that you can safely call it nonexistent.

Not "desperately" yeah.
But its not a rarity for you to overheat in Elite.
We've been over this XD

 

[DemiserofD]

Those situations when you desperately need to repair the power plant or the AFMU is so abysmally rare that you can safely call it nonexistent.

And in practice, if you do need to repair them, it will almost always be faster to fly to a station nearby to do it.

Even in an exploration context, that's likely the case. With the distribution of DSSA Carriers across the galaxy, it's rare to be more than about 10 minutes away from repairs, and that means there are almost zero times where manually repairing is going to be a reasonable choice.

Again, bear in mind, I'm not against the idea IF IT WERE FREE(in terms of dev cost). But you need a good reason for ship interiors to exist FIRST - which this most certainly is not.

 

[Lukaz_Chrom]

Allow me to clarify: Why should we add a second version of repairing, when we already have one, and the new one cannot be better than the old one, because it doesn't require an optional slot investment?

What are you even talking about?
It can't repair the Generator XD

Expensive in terms of game development.

Exactly, it wouldn't be.

Not as they've been described here. If they are worse than using dedicated modules or repairing via stations, they would barely ever be used, and would not be used much or at all.

A. Not everybody has an AFMU.
B. I get the feeling you really didn't know that the AFMU can not repair the Generator (Btw. it also can't repair itself )

Given that full atmo planets would require 2-4+ years of development, that's not saying much.

There are mutliple suggested concepts for how Ship Interiors could be developed.
The cheapest of them could easily be done by even a single Dev.
The keyword being "peacmeal". You do them one-at-a-time for one ship at-a-time.
But even that would likely be entirely unneccessariy because they could easiyl re-use a lot of rooms for similar Ships.
E.g. I doubt the machine-room of the Type-9 would be that different from a Type-10.

 

[galahad2069]

Not "desperately" yeah.
But its not a rarity for you to overheat in Elite.
We've been over this XD

It takes a very long time of overheating to cook your modules all the way down to 0% integrity. If they are not dead, they will keep working just fine (especially the power plant).
And even if some module happens to hit the zero level, you can just reboot anytime.