Ships Ships for Mat Farming in HazRES? (not 'Vette)

[Kayvan]

Hmmmm yeah the numbers look promising. As a counterpoint one might argue that armour hardness is also a thing, but ofc that can be offset with (ammo-dependent) Corrosive MCs. Leaving Corrosive aside, a medium burst laser has Piercing 35, whereas an Anaconda has Hardness 65. So actually only 54% of the damage gets through.
A Focused med burst laser however has up to 77 Piercing, so it will in fact punch though all armour including the Type 10's.
So taking that into account, an OC med burst I.I. laser does 34*0,54 = 18 damage at 500m (and less at every meter further away). Whereas a Focused one will do its full 19.4 dmg at up to 1km (if you can hit).

Now ofc that gets changed again when you add the aforementioned Corrosive into the mix. Then OC/SR does 85% of its nominal damage against Conda.
Between OC and SRB, I think I'd rather tend towards OC because the falloff isn't quite as punitive, but I'd have to look at the drawbacks again.

 

[Homerzilla]

Hmmmm yeah the numbers look promising. As a counterpoint one might argue that armour hardness is also a thing, but ofc that can be offset with (ammo-dependent) Corrosive MCs. Leaving Corrosive aside, a medium burst laser has Piercing 35, whereas an Anaconda has Hardness 65. So actually only 54% of the damage gets through.
A Focused med burst laser however has up to 77 Piercing, so it will in fact punch though all armour including the Type 10's.
So taking that into account, an OC med burst I.I. laser does 34*0,54 = 18 damage at 500m (and less at every meter further away). Whereas a Focused one will do its full 19.4 dmg at up to 1km (if you can hit).

Now ofc that gets changed again when you add the aforementioned Corrosive into the mix. Then OC/SR does 85% of its nominal damage against Conda.
Between OC and SRB, I think I'd rather tend towards OC because the falloff isn't quite as punitive, but I'd have to look at the drawbacks again.

I opted also for OC but most bc of overheating ( 15% vs 45% at short range) - and about armor piercing - the extra punch from OC AND the high rate of fire compensate for armor duress,, from my experience. You know the old said " throw enough sh... at the wall, and some will stick" - if you run at least 3 OC burst with inertia, the fire volume will melt the armor the same - fast. I start to do more money now in Maia with stacked assassination missions than I do from mining - 150-200 millions / h !

I found this build to be very effective not just vs big NPC.s but most against small/medium - tag them with LR + TV from 5-6 km, "freeze" my ship in process ( so the return fire will miss most of the time) AND when they come under 1000m I start a barrage of burst ( the class III guns) - those will rip the shields and hulls in just few seconds before they fly away.
Cobras and ASP are the most fun to kill, when they turn and give you that huge flat belly.... And Condas are easier 2 kill than a Vulture...
I just did 86 kills in 45 minutes for 125 millions ( stacked missions) AND a full load of materials - enough to be forced to go visit a mat trader....;p

 

[sinisalo]

Elite rail-Vultures are a b!tch!

 

[Homerzilla]

Elite rail-Vultures are a b!tch!

Not so much, when you are in a Cheffy
You can stay on their tail 24/7 and they cannot escape.

 

[sinisalo]

I'll take your word for that Homerzilla. I sold my Chieftain long ago, not my sort of ship really. But if you guys could just go ahead and clear the spaceways of these miscreants that would be swell.

 

[Homerzilla]

I'll take your word for that Homerzilla. I sold my Chieftain long ago, not my sort of ship really. But if you guys could just go ahead and clear the spaceways of these miscreants that would be swell.

When I am in Cheffy I am only worried about other Elite..... Cheffy

 

[Northpin]

Give a try to this mix - 2-3 LR beams with TV ( on small points) AND all the rest OC or short range blasters burst lasers with INERTIAL ; (all gimballed)

If you're gonna use inertial on bursts then make the fixed not gimbaled.
You have to fire them really close so you cant really miss with them

 

[Homerzilla]

If you're gonna use inertial on bursts then make the fixed not gimbaled.
You have to fire them really close so you cant really miss with them

That works , indeed, vs medium / big ships, but vs small, fast and agile ones, not so much....As much as I love the extra dam on fixed (vs gimballed) I am not, sadly, that good to be able to hit constantly the screaming Vulture.s, , Eagle.s,, etc, boosting around me....

But I found a sweet compromise with gimballed, so I use one fixed and one gimballed in the class III hard points
For some reason ( a bug, a glitch ) the NPCs will not use chaff when I target them with the "mix" ( one fixed one gimballed) - so I am happy with the results.

About your argument of "really close" - well, with that crazy jitter, you MUST be close anyway, so I usually open fire under 1000m, by rule.

 

[Oytis57]

Plasma in PvE are not so great

This beats them all.

 

[Homerzilla]

This beats them all.

Is not just my opinion, but the shared idea of many veterans who post on Tube - guys who are much better pilots than me, and probably, better than you....

But hey, you can laugh about anything, is your right.
But you know what will really beat them all - posting here a vid from your highly skilled fights and showing us how great are you with PA - what about that ? ....

 

[Northpin]

Plasma in PvE are not so great

i tend to agree with this

This beats them all.

A large overcharged gimbaled multicannon with autoloader has better dps and much better time on target than a large efficient PA, not too mention lower power and pd requirements - and it's really cheap to synth ammo. Higher projectile speed makes landing shots at 1500m achievable, not so much with a PA.

A fixed MC is even better... (at least in terms of dps...)

 

[Homerzilla]

i tend to agree with this




A large overcharged gimbaled multicannon with autoloader has better dps and much better time on target than a large efficient PA, not too mention lower power and pd requirements - and it's really cheap to synth ammo. Higher projectile speed makes landing shots at 1500m achievable, not so much with a PA.

A fixed MC is even better... (at least in terms of dps...)

AND, most important, is not so dependent in the skill set.... an average pilot can relatively easy to bring a hell of damage on the target with MCs, frags or lasers ... but with a PA - different story.... you must be excellent at aiming with fixed, manage the heat, and manage the distance.
Against a fast, agile, boosting small ship, with the slow RoF and mag, of a PA, the common pilot will have a really hard time. Especially IF you are in a big, less agile.ship ..

Not to comment about the weapon flexibility - the same MC can be fitted in any ship - the power and heat are compatible with almost any build - but a PA, especially the L and H ones, will require especial conditions in order to properly work.

 

[tolm]

Personally, if I want space for a limpet controller AND plenty of limpets AND it’s not a large ship ... then that means I’m running a Shield build as there simply won’t be enough internals left for both HRP and MRP to allow a Hull based build to stay out long enough to bring in a decent hoard ...

For that ... I would go Krait MkII which can pack some impressive shields with a 6A (or even a 6C BiWeave) Shield Generator plus a decent array of SBs and GSRMs whilst still packing a C6 Cargo Rack.

 

[Homerzilla]

Personally, if I want space for a limpet controller AND plenty of limpets AND it’s not a large ship ... then that means I’m running a Shield build as there simply won’t be enough internals left for both HRP and MRP to allow a Hull based build to stay out long enough to bring in a decent hoard ...

For that ... I would go Krait MkII which can pack some impressive shields with a 6A (or even a 6C BiWeave) Shield Generator plus a decent array of SBs and GSRMs whilst still packing a C6 Cargo Rack.

Here the Challenger is a nice mid-point - 64 limpets is not bad, coupled with 2 x class 3 collectors. True is not at the Cheffy level of agility, but also is not far... and packs a nice punch, tough....

 

[Kayvan]

Concerning Plasmas:

as I mentioned recently in the Chieftain thread, I first practiced with a set of Focused, Slug PAs. Not optimal in terms of damage but the higher shot speed makes aiming a bit easier, and with the Slug effect you don't need to worry about ammo. (And no, I never came really close to running out of fuel.) But nevertheless it is most effective against big targets, and small stinkers like Eagles are a right pain. (But very satisfying when you hit them.)

A large overcharged gimbaled multicannon with autoloader has better dps and much better time on target than a large efficient PA,

Time on Target yes, ease of aim yes, but pure damage is not so easy. See my previous comments on Piercing vs Hardness -- MC will often lose some damage to Hardness, whereas Plasma just goes like a hot knife through butter. Likewise with resistances -- here Plasma is a bit weird bc it's actually less effective against low-end targets. But as soon as opponents start having positive resistances vs Thm and Kin, that's another benefit of PAs since 60% of their damage is Absolute and as such always goes right through.

These effects are actually more pronounced on class 2 slots -- med lasers and MCs always have lower piercing than large ones, but Plasma always has 100.
So just for one (admittedly a bit contrived) example:
A: class 2 OC Multi -> Prc 37, dps 21.4 (kin)
B: class 2 Eff PA -> Prc 100, dps +12 (abs) +4 (kin) +4 (thm)
[Eff PA and OC MC have very similar power reqs, DPE and heat load]

Pit this against, say an FDL with Shields +25% thm, +50% kin, and Armor hrd 70, +50% thm, +25% kin (so rather moderately engineered)

makes for the following Effective dps:
MC: 10.7 vs shield, 9 vs hull
PA: 17 vs shield, 17 vs hull

So a single Plasma hit will effectively do 52 dmg against shield or hull regardless. For the same net damage, the MC has to lie on target for 5-6 seconds.

tl;dr: raw DPS value is first of all a theoretical figure and gets influenced by so many factors that the number alone is often misleading.

(This comment also applies to the remark about Fixed MCs... Small ones may work, but Large MCs with their spinup will be pretty much unusable)

--

The math should actually look relatively similar for Frags... you fire 12 projectiles at a spread of 5°; so in many cases it will be a "spray and pray" situation. BTW here the dps figures on Coriolis are misleading or flat out wrong. A 3-shell burst will not do 300 damage but 180, IF you manage to hit with all pellets,then these are subject to the usual resistances and hardness. Sure it's still a very high Alpha. The Sustained DPS calc however is correct again -- it comes down to 63 SDPS.
Against our sample FDL opponent, each full hit (61 raw dmg) will effectively do 30 dmg vs shields and 20 dmg vs hull, with the potential of landing 3 hits in quick succession. But each pellet that misses will reduce the total noticeably.
Also, note that this weapon benefits extremely from synergy with a Corrosive "softener" weapon.

By this I don't mean to diss Frags. They are hilarious. ^^ But again, the apparent damage output on paper isn't exactly representative.

 

[Oytis57]

i tend to agree with this




A large overcharged gimbaled multicannon with autoloader has better dps and much better time on target than a large efficient PA, not too mention lower power and pd requirements - and it's really cheap to synth ammo. Higher projectile speed makes landing shots at 1500m achievable, not so much with a PA.

A fixed MC is even better... (at least in terms of dps...)

Well good for you,I keep my Plasma oh by the way a Focused Plasma projectile has a speed of 1750 m/s,just to keep you updated.

 

[Oytis57]

But hey, you can laugh about anything, is your right.
But you know what will really beat them all - posting here a vid from your highly skilled fights and showing us how great are you with PA - what about that ? ....

Why should I bother? You keep your convinctions as well as those of the other skilled pilots,I'll keep mine I have never said that my flights are "high skilled" and I never said that I'm an Ace pilot but you seem to suffer a bit,relax

 

[tolm]

Here the Challenger is a nice mid-point - 64 limpets is not bad, coupled with 2 x class 3 collectors. True is not at the Cheffy level of agility, but also is not far... and packs a nice punch, tough....

True ... but with a C6 and 2x C3 slots gone, both your shields and hull will be sub-optimal whereas a Krait MkII will have a much higher base shield so will be less impacted in terms of defence when carrying those.

 

[Oytis57]

True ... but with a C6 and 2x C3 slots gone, both your shields and hull will be sub-optimal whereas a Krait MkII will have a much higher base shield so will be less impacted in terms of defence when carrying those.

That guy only listen to his own voice

 

[tolm]

Concerning Plasmas:

as I mentioned recently in the Chieftain thread, I first practiced with a set of Focused, Slug PAs. Not optimal in terms of damage but the higher shot speed makes aiming a bit easier, and with the Slug effect you don't need to worry about ammo. (And no, I never came really close to running out of fuel.) But nevertheless it is most effective against big targets, and small stinkers like Eagles are a right pain. (But very satisfying when you hit them.)



Time on Target yes, ease of aim yes, but pure damage is not so easy. See my previous comments on Piercing vs Hardness -- MC will often lose some damage to Hardness, whereas Plasma just goes like a hot knife through butter. Likewise with resistances -- here Plasma is a bit weird bc it's actually less effective against low-end targets. But as soon as opponents start having positive resistances vs Thm and Kin, that's another benefit of PAs since 60% of their damage is Absolute and as such always goes right through.

These effects are actually more pronounced on class 2 slots -- med lasers and MCs always have lower piercing than large ones, but Plasma always has 100.
So just for one (admittedly a bit contrived) example:
A: class 2 OC Multi -> Prc 37, dps 21.4 (kin)
B: class 2 Eff PA -> Prc 100, dps +12 (abs) +4 (kin) +4 (thm)
[Eff PA and OC MC have very similar power reqs, DPE and heat load]

Pit this against, say an FDL with Shields +25% thm, +50% kin, and Armor hrd 70, +50% thm, +25% kin (so rather moderately engineered)

makes for the following Effective dps:
MC: 10.7 vs shield, 9 vs hull
PA: 17 vs shield, 17 vs hull

So a single Plasma hit will effectively do 52 dmg against shield or hull regardless. For the same net damage, the MC has to lie on target for 5-6 seconds.

tl;dr: raw DPS value is first of all a theoretical figure and gets influenced by so many factors that the number alone is often misleading.

(This comment also applies to the remark about Fixed MCs... Small ones may work, but Large MCs with their spinup will be pretty much unusable)

--

The math should actually look relatively similar for Frags... you fire 12 projectiles at a spread of 5°; so in many cases it will be a "spray and pray" situation. BTW here the dps figures on Coriolis are misleading or flat out wrong. A 3-shell burst will not do 300 damage but 180, IF you manage to hit with all pellets,then these are subject to the usual resistances and hardness. Sure it's still a very high Alpha. The Sustained DPS calc however is correct again -- it comes down to 63 SDPS.
Against our sample FDL opponent, each full hit (61 raw dmg) will effectively do 30 dmg vs shields and 20 dmg vs hull, with the potential of landing 3 hits in quick succession. But each pellet that misses will reduce the total noticeably.
Also, note that this weapon benefits extremely from synergy with a Corrosive "softener" weapon.

By this I don't mean to diss Frags. They are hilarious. ^^ But again, the apparent damage output on paper isn't exactly representative.

Certainly agree on Frags - they are a lot of fun but you gotta be close to get near their maximum potential and ideally against a large ship.

Plasma’s I have a love/hate relationship with. I like using them but against anything smaller than an Asp I do not think I hit often enough for the theoretical damage to actually be worth it.

I also think they very much qualify as “go big or go home” weapons ... I’ve tried having a single or even dual PAs on my Krait - leaving one or two large HPs for a MC for the smaller craft - but it pretty much always means a compromise in either event ... one MC would better be at least two and hitting with a single large PA is just lacklustre when you consider the power, heat and fire rate costs vs a MC. Pretty much I either want all THREE large HPs as PAs so they make the biggest impact when they hit or I’d rather not bother. But then you’ve shafted yourself for DPS against small ships just “in case” that big target shows up.