Shock cannons?

[Jaylem]

I own them (all fixed and gimballed) and they are rather shocking (pun intended ) if they had a very large ammo pool then yes, they would be average weapons for sustained combat. but still surpassed by ALL multi cannons and cannons of the same size due to the fact they can be engineered, not only changing their characteristics buts also adding some very powerful experimental effects ( Cannon with force shell is amazing! disruptor is pretty useful too)

That being said, at least they are usable, unlike the tech broker abortions the enzyme missile, meta reinforcement and Flechette launcher, I assure you they are utter ****....

If these weapons could be engineered in the future they 'could' be good depending on effects, and for some you'd be wanting to hope for some really powerful ones to make up for it.

 

[N124Hawk]

From my point of view they are pretty good BUT also they have small amount of ammo(i think they need 2-6x more +-). Maybe a bit big heat generation but that is not that necessary but it would be nice. Unlock them from my prespective is pretty easy(let it be as it is).

I definitely agree with the ammo pool. As for the heat, a single thermal vent beam or a couple heatsink launchers work nicely.

I'm currently working on a Conda that is outfitted entirely with gimballed shock cannons, and a huge efficient beam, with thermal vent. Then I'd need to start gathering ammo synthesis mats

 

[CMDR X]

I definitely agree with the ammo pool. As for the heat, a single thermal vent beam or a couple heatsink launchers work nicely.

I'm currently working on a Conda that is outfitted entirely with gimballed shock cannons, and a huge efficient beam, with thermal vent. Then I'd need to start gathering ammo synthesis mats

Tried this on my Vette. It was pretty lethal. Too bad you can only use four of them.

 

[cmdr Ramius007]

A bit of necro, but how far they are from engineered stuff if c3 gimballed g 5 rapid fire frag with screening shell have 116 SUSTAINED DPS with much better dpe (damage per energy) and working much cooler vs 31 DPS of gimballed shock cannons, as pvp minimaxer and toying with shock cannons again i was feeling obliged to mention this. If ammo is used as balancing dps (with synthesis it makes 0 sense IMO) its worth notice.

 

[lenna]

A bit of necro, but how far they are from engineered stuff if c3 gimballed g 5 rapid fire frag with screening shell have 116 SUSTAINED DPS with much better dpe (damage per energy) and working much cooler vs 31 DPS of gimballed shock cannons, as pvp minimaxer and toying with shock cannons again i was feeling obliged to mention this. If ammo is used as balancing dps (with synthesis it makes 0 sense IMO) its worth notice.

Your 31 DPS sounds off to me, damage per shot perhaps but the refire rate is as fast as you can click the fire button. Further more Frag weapons have a much shorter range.

Damage Per Shot and Damage Per Second do not tell you everything about how "effective" a weapon might be.

 

[cmdr Ramius007]

Your 31 DPS sounds off to me, damage per shot perhaps but the refire rate is as fast as you can click the fire button. Further more Frag weapons have a much shorter range.

Damage Per Shot and Damage Per Second do not tell you everything about how "effective" a weapon might be.

Damage per shot of c3 gimbal shock cannon is 14.9, 31.8 is sustained dps, data in coriolis take account of long reload time of 6 secs. I gave extreme number for max dps frag mod, but everybody in this thread should be aware such things are possible, and is pure reason why shock cannons have no play at all if we value any kind of efficiency in combat and single reason they should get ammo buff, you simply can't make up for so big difference in dps with better shot speed, especially that shock cannons at max dps also have considerable jitter, and trigger mechanism make getting max sustained dps practically impossible. Synthesis recipe is also something that FD should look for with next update, its extreme now, and it look like designers want it, but it's just too much wrong now. Smaller sizes than 3 are just useless in any comnbat related activity in game different from killing harmless sidewinders, healthpools in both pve and pvp are extremely big now, npc's also take advantage of added 2 small internals, but weapons balance is still in middle ages.

 

[lenna]

Damage per shot of c3 gimbal shock cannon is 14.9, 31.8 is sustained dps, data in coriolis take account of long reload time of 6 secs.

Coriolis calculations are a weak reflection on reality - they are mere spreed-sheet based assessments and can not realistically take into account all the factors. If you are basing your balance argument purely on what coriolis (or similar) says then your argument falls at the first hurdle. Coriolis is ok for initial comparative build assessments for a given ship but need to be treated as suspect wrt how they map to actual in-game effectiveness.

Shock cannons serve a limited but effective purpose as a long range (3km range/2.5km damage fall-off) semi-automatic weapon. They may have a long reload time but they also are natively auto-loading meaning the clip will only be subject to the 6s delay if the operator fires at a faster rate than the auto-loader can manage to offset. According to both the unofficial wiki and coriolis, the stated maximum fire rate is 10/s which possibly maps on to the auto-loader re-load rate - actual refire rate depends on usage.

Frag cannons by contrast are relatively short range weapons (2km range/1.8km damage fall-off), have a lower AP rating (C3 - 45 v 60/C2 - 30 v 40), and a lower shot speed (667m/s v 1200m/s). Damage calculations where Frag Cannons are concerned also fail to consider that it is a dispersion weapon (multiple pellets fired dispersed via a cone) and not all pellets of a given shot may actually hit a given target.

If you are only ever firing at targets at short range then the Frag Cannons can be VERY effective but they do lack both accuracy at longer ranges and do not have auto-loader as an engineering option. If you are going to compare shock cannons with other weapons then it's peers are the Multi-Cannon and the Cannon, but it is worth keeping in mind that the reload time is not a guaranteed penalty with any weapon that has auto-loading as a feature (c/f the Shock Cannon).

 

[cmdr Ramius007]

[

Shock cannons serve a limited but effective purpose as a long range (3km range/2.5km damage fall-off) semi-automatic weapon. They may have a long reload time but they also are natively auto-loading meaning the clip will only be subject to the 6s delay if the operator fires at a faster rate than the auto-loader can manage to offset. According to both the unofficial wiki and coriolis, the stated maximum fire rate is 10/s which possibly maps on to the auto-loader re-load rate - actual refire rate depends on usage.

I m sorry, but are you serious now? What targets are going to hit with gimballed weapon with 1200m's speed as 2.5km, asteroid?
Those are facts: SUSTAINED DPS of 116 vs SUSTAINED DPS of 30, in short almost 400% more damage vs average target, at about half projectile speed but with much better distributor draw and much lower heat. Of course if we target npc anaconda we can maybe hit at 2.5k km some shots from shock cannons, but against any medium or small target, even npc's, shock cannon will be effective at similar ranges as small fixed cannons are, sightly better than plasma acc, but still being short range weapon(up to 1km), there is absolutely no comparison in efficiency of shock cannon vs such engineered frags or pacifiers(those have projectile speed closer to shock cannons than frags) in point blank ranges where shock cannons reach their theoretical SUSTAINED DPS.
We can compere them to cannons rather, and now they look more appealing, having better shot speed as gimballed variants at all sizes, but lacking experimentals of cannons, and the letter are reason to use cannons over multicannons a lot of the time. But still total damage compered favour cannons tremendously, its 6600 for overcharged gimballed c3 cannon vs 3800 for c3 gimballed shock cannon(mc is over 10k), but like i said in earlier post, heathpool are too high, and even full gimballed multicannons builds are unable to take out single medium pvp ship without synthesis, and anything on medium ship that is not plasma acc build lack staying power in CZ's.
Dev's don't play their game that is seen pretty much in every stream, weapon balance(especially total damage) is completely detached from both pve and pvp combat and not account for absurd strength of reinforced shield mod and HD booster blueprints, i think threads like this should help with this.

 

[lenna]

I m sorry, but are you serious now? What targets are going to hit with gimballed weapon with 1200m's speed as 2.5km, asteroid?

It is doable to engage an openly aggressive target at such ranges (circumstances can allow it) or to start combat at such ranges with an opening volley (I have certainly done both numerous times with NPCs) - but I believe you are also ignoring the fact that the shot speed of Frag Cannons are even slower and arguably less accurate at comparable ranges. For example: 667 m/s at 1.5km v. 1200 m/s at 1.5km results in ~2.25s of bullet flight v. 1.25s of bullet flight - on top of that the actual accuracy of the Frag cannon gets worse with range regardless of what mount you use for it because of one key point - it is a space shotgun and the pellets fired get further apart with range.

Cannons suffer from a slower refire rate but greater alpha damage, plus they have a slower shot speed making them a lesser choice in at least some regards - even with Engineering but that does not mean they are useless. If you can hit with a single shot then it will hurt.

Multi-cannons are the closest to shock cannons in terms of refire rate and accuracy but they do less burst damage.

Ultimately, Shock cannons are a compromise weapon - they offer an effective range closer to that of stock cannons/multi-cannons while offering a burst damage level comparable to that of stock frag cannons. They have auto-loader functionality as standard and offer better burst and sustained performance than engineered Cannons/Multi-cannons. Frag cannons excel at near point-blank engagements but at longer ranges they will suffer heavily both due to pellet spread and shot speed.

Are shock cannons perfect? No, but they are reasonably balanced when compared with the engineered weapon alternative options. Personally, I have a mix of ship builds using a variety of weapons - where shock cannons are concerned, I have used and do use them on various ships and find their performance more than acceptable even when considering engineered weapon options.

The problem as I see it is that there are a number of issues with player expectations regarding both ships and weapons (comparable balancing arguments have been bouncing around these forums for ages) - in specific regards to the Shock Cannon, IMO if any particular element was improved then it would arguably be overpowered. Currently, it is a shock and awe type weapon rather than a stand and fight weapon and no other weapon really comes close to matching it in that regard - Frag Cannons lack range and accuracy, Cannons and Plasmas provide excellent alpha damage but lack in refire rate, and Multi-Cannons are perhaps an ideal compromise weapon given their ammo capacity and low penalty for missed shots.

All weapons have their positive and negative points, choice of which one(s) to outfit with is on the most part dependent on deployment circumstances and Shock Cannons do have excellent utility in hit and run use cases. Depending on the ship they would not necessarily be my first choice but that does not mean their balance is off either.

FTR the ONLY time I would even consider equipping a Frag Cannon is if I were doubtful over whether I could accurately target the opposition OR I was expecting to be in a knife fight type situation (e.g. short range/close quarters engagements). Regardless of alleged sustained damage potential, the shot speed is too low and the pellet dispersion make relying on frag cannons for mixed engagements unwise IMO.

 

[Red_Beard_98]

I personally enjoy the shock cannon. I don't do competitive PvP so I can't speak about them from that point of view (I imagine they aren't very good) but from a PvE perspective they aren't too bad. I don't think they can compete with a G5 engineered MC but they still have their place. With the low ammo count and high synthesis cost I would never even remotely consider taking these to a CZ or Res site assuming you want to kill more than 3 or 4 enemies.

I put these on my trading ships and assassination ships; ones where you probably won't get into any sort of sustained fighting. On my Cutter (my heavy trader) I have a huge and 4 medium MC's mostly with incendiary ammo and one with corrosive then I have 2 large shock cannons. The shock cannons coupled with the corrosive damage is actually quite brutal and will strip a hull in no time. An ammo increase would be nice but I don't really mind them the way they are. I can usually take out the 3 or 4 mission targets sent after me without running out of ammo. They are situational but effective.

 

[cmdr Ramius007]

Mind you, synthesis of half of the ammo cost 11 materials including manufactured one like focus crystals, even if c3 variant is somehow ok, but still too low on ammo, i think that smaller sizes are useless, simply because of both, little ammo and synth recipe, if we balance weapons with ammo, where synthesis is unlimited, then grind to win mechanic is created, is this really what we want?

 

[lenna]

Mind you, synthesis of half of the ammo cost 11 materials including manufactured one like focus crystals, even if c3 variant is somehow ok, but still too low on ammo, i think that smaller sizes are useless, simply because of both, little ammo and synth recipe, if we balance weapons with ammo, where synthesis is unlimited, then grind to win mechanic is created, is this really what we want?

Whether talking about the C2 or C3 the balance is fine, if you look how the balance compares with the Cannon and Multi-Cannon you should see the relative balance about the same regardless of weapon size.