Should Frontier continue labouring over Elite Dangerous? Or call it time and work on Elite Dangerous 2?

[Exeider]

That's the question though, would they be more motivated and excited to make a new Elite game? Would they be able to make a better job of a new Elite game than they would keeping Elite Dangerous going?

No, just no. The issues that ED have stem not from working on this game, or even "Spaghetti" code, though that doesn't help things. As we have seen and heard, there are systemic management issues at play here, there are things wrong on a company level not a project one. Whether they work on ED, ED2 or whatever, changing what game the developers work on still isn't solving the problem. Because the problem isn't with the developers, it's with the managers. There needs to be some serious structural changes on the management level to fix what's wrong at Fdev.

Hell at this point I would request his highness @David Braben come down from his throne and manage the game development of his supposedly "prized vision." It seems like the business part of Fdev is doing fine, so he could leave someone to mind the store while he comes down here and fixes the management problems, maybe even spearhead development for a while and get us back on track.

 

[Alien]

Entire OP is wrong. FD designed ED from the start for ship interiors, walking about and all the other plans that were sold during the Kickstarter and after.

And I doubt OP knows a thing about the actual state of the game code (sources for the speculation?). It's definitely a complicated affair, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been well documented and properly coded.

"FD designed ED from the start for ship interiors"
Prove it. Because I've seen at least one video of someone with VR looking inside the ship that proves it was not designed for ship interiors. This is just a thing David said during the kickstarter.

"And I doubt OP knows a thing about the actual state of the game code (sources for the speculation?)"
No, I don't KNOW anything about the state of the code, I've always stated I know nothing about coding or game development. I have an opinion about the state of the code, an opinion I've shared with actual coders and game devs (one of whom may or may not have worked for Frontier) and they have agreed with my opinion. AND THEN in one of the streams Arthur (I think I can't actually remember) admitted the code had been "refreshed" (I think was the actual term used) which just gave credibility to my theory the code had been rewritten. which it wouldn't have needed if it was not a mess .... which we know because of what happened when they tried to integrate Arx. You don't have to be a programmer or a game dev to understand these things.

 

[Exeider]

Where does this losing money thing come from? Last numbers I saw ED was profitable.

Correction, FDEV is profitable, Elite is not. In fact, it seems Fdev's whole motivation to become a publisher is partly, to use the money made on publishing to pay for game's development (paraphrasing Braben), which to me suggests that game development as a studio is a cost-center not a profit one.

And that does make sense, Space Sims appeal to an already esoteric group of folk to begin with it stands to reason to understand ED would never be as popular as some of the more "Killer App" titles out there that allow their developers and publishers a license to print money. So even during it's hey-day, I'm sure Elite was doing well for itself but "Ok" compared to games as a whole. With the issues that have been plaguing the company as of late, it has more than likely dipped below profitability status. (Sadly though we likely never will know to what extent and how long this has been going on.)

 

[amigacooke]

All four games, Elite Dangerous, Planet Coaster, Jurassic World Evolution and Planet Zoo, benefitted from Frontier’s ‘launch and nurture’ strategy in FY20, with each providing significant revenue contributions through both base game sales and paid-downloadable content (“PDLC”)

 

[Sysmon]

I thought this was ED 4.

S

 

[amadeus1171]

Or just sell the franchise to a developer who won't screw things up or blatantly lie.

 

[Ronzer]

Case for continuing with Elite Dangerous:

• Keeping to one game reduces confusion with the franchise
• Sunk cost fallacy: so much time, dev hours and money has been invested in this game, it might be better to keep going
• Elite Dangerous is a known quantity
• It's easier to keep going than it is to do something new

Case for Elite Dangerous 2:

• The code for ED is a mess as it has been added to and added to and each time they have to fix things that are caused when they add new code
• Frontier have learned so much since starting ED
• It would be easier to put in things the community wants that would be harder in ED because ED wasn't designed from scratch for things like walking around and ship interiors or fleet carriers etc
• Frontier are actually losing money with ED because of all the Lifetime Expansion Pass holders who aren't buying expansions like Odyssey. Elite Dangerous 2 would mean a fresh start without an LEP and therefore income from everyone, not just those without the LEP.

I just said I may be dreaming in another thread....but wow, what if they're not developing VR for ED anymore, because they're focussing on ED2. Right?
Like EDH, for now, if they did do an ED2, I'd hope they keep ED going for a while.
The whole thing is about the code. We cant get out of our chairs, without lots of rework at the moment. New code, you wont be stuck in you're seat.
If they wanted to do it right, off the bat, they should charge the regular amount for any big new release game. Yup, $79.99 for regular, $120 for commander edition.

 

[JonKar]

Case for continuing with Elite Dangerous:

• Keeping to one game reduces confusion with the franchise
• Sunk cost fallacy: so much time, dev hours and money has been invested in this game, it might be better to keep going
• Elite Dangerous is a known quantity
• It's easier to keep going than it is to do something new

Case for Elite Dangerous 2:

• The code for ED is a mess as it has been added to and added to and each time they have to fix things that are caused when they add new code
• Frontier have learned so much since starting ED
• It would be easier to put in things the community wants that would be harder in ED because ED wasn't designed from scratch for things like walking around and ship interiors or fleet carriers etc
• Frontier are actually losing money with ED because of all the Lifetime Expansion Pass holders who aren't buying expansions like Odyssey. Elite Dangerous 2 would mean a fresh start without an LEP and therefore income from everyone, not just those without the LEP.

Elite Dangerouser

 

[Qualityoflife]

My first inkling that something was amiss is when they couldn't change the HUD from orange. Yet an outside API did it, EDDB not in the game why, no contract or integration to those who aided enjoyment of your game (not even a link)
To this day I have orange overfills and just turn it off.

Why are books woes a thing? Seven years unaddressed but changed with the Halfaased standard we come to know and love? If you play the game u would not settle for the change you made?

Sounds small but is a very big tell. If you're falling on your face from that everything else becomes self explanatory. You haven't mastered your own code or built it silly. Especially when
thinking of braben "we're building with the future in mind"?

Yeah but when your dodging industry advances ( elite looks like a dated has been) which I would be cool with as an aesthetic but when what is here so half aasd I renege my pass.

At the graphic fidelity that this game is expressed at should be star citizen-lite by now. Cheap assets can be produced fdev they don't have to take the CPU, GPU and kitchen sink to display things

its unbelievble really when considering the nuts and bolts of what this was supposed to be. The perfect word for this is "LANGUISH", where is this project really going! Whomever makes decisions on the way the game is going has no clue at best what exploration should encompass.

Intellectual dyslexia is a thing? In ED As a commander I'm thinking of flying a ship amongst the cosmos be it a pirate, trucker or explorer And sciencey type stuff....where is it!
Where does a cowboy hat on an airless planet come to mind or fruition? pizza boxes and litter, LSD paintjobs, release multiplayer that can't multiplayer, crime and punishment and it implementation (need I say more)

HIRE someone who can put something out to see and experience into the game. Why is there such a no asset production approach?

Seems as though its an uphill battle to add stuff of merit. In much need of extra layers of engagement.

Stellar forge is not so stellar considering it's all instanced anyways. It's just references and coordinates nothing analguous so that leaves a flight model as the true standout.

Planet tech....what is the Achilles heel of water in this game????????

Source: https://youtu.be/HM1IZnRzVGQ


The way systems are integrated needs to be more emergent focused!

After all is done and said so far....I deem them incapable from learned behavior!

Elite dangerous needs a project director with a purpose!?

 

[Nullvektor]

At this point in their recent history, with this management, with their work ethic, with their design standards, with their thematic "vision," localized ENTIRELY within this company?

 

[Monk]

Personally, I'd be happy with an ED 2...IF it were built by the team that was there at the kickstarter AND with all that they have learned with ED.

Unfortunately, a lot of those folks are gone along with what they learned from mistakes. Maybe if Brookes were back at the helm...maybe

 

[VR CMDR Novindus]

I would look forward to the next iteration of Elite if the following were done:

-Hire some new exceptionally talented game designers.
-Organise for them to spend long sessions playing Elite Dangerous and talking to members of the community, particularly those with a thousand or more hours in game, and to those who've invested in the game by organising community events, player groups (i.e. Fuel Rats), and software tools.
-Create polls on the forums, in Reddit, on YouTube, and social media, to gauge what kind of features players most desire.
-Sit down and plan features, gameplay, and UI screens down to the smallest specifics before ever writing a line of code.
-Plan the code structure and infrastructure in a very forward-thinking way.
-Think about VR from the ground-up, for every aspect of the game, and make the VR feature shine. Seriously, just gold-plate it.

Also, it would be great if they just switched to using Unreal Engine 5 instead of Cobra, and included DLSS support from the get-go.

 

[[VR] James Constantine]

Also, it would be great if they just switched to using Unreal Engine 5 instead of Cobra, and included DLSS support from the get-go.

They own Cobra, they don't own Unreal. For a publicly listed company owning assets, thus increasing value in said company, is of utmost importance, even if those assets aren't very good in reality.

 

[Kethriss]

The reason Odyssey sucks is because it's bolted-on. The game wasn't built from the ground up to support content like that in the future unlike a certain crowd-funding record holder that can only be mentioned in one single hidden thread on this forum because Frontier is scared of losing more players to it.

If this is the direction Frontier wants Elite to, then they absolutely need to make a new game from the ground up. Make a first-person shooter first, to have the smallest scale the game exists at, then build everything else around it. Have on-foot mechanics working on a flat plane. Then get SRV and vehicles working and make sure the player avatar can seamlessly get on and off and interact with them. Then have Smaller ships and make sure the player avatar can seamlessly move on to them and through them and fly around and get off again, then start building the play area, start adding the objects and models, start working on planet generation, test the on-foot mechanics on basic generated planets and terrain of different types, then start making buildings and related assets to make sure it all works seamlessly. Then start kicking in Stellar Forge to build out further, have a full star system and test seamless transportation from one planet to another through super cruise, test being able to walk around inside ships during flight and EVA. Then make it bigger, multiple system, jump between them. Then, start working on weapon systems. Again, start with on-foot weapons. FPS gameplay, systems related to it. Start working on NPCs and drones and make sure they all work together, then expand up more and more until you have Elite at the scale it exists now, except that it was designed from day 1 to support on-foot mechanics instead of being bolted on haphazardly and looking like an entirely separate game.

 

[[VR] James Constantine]

If this is the direction Frontier wants Elite to, then they absolutely need to make a new game from the ground up.

Sure. Let's wait three or more years and FDev can invent millions while throwing away existing IP, until we get to play that alpha.

FPS gameplay, systems related to it. Start working on NPCs and drones and make sure they all work together, then expand up more and more until you have Elite at the scale it exists now, except that it was designed from day 1 to support on-foot mechanics instead of being bolted on haphazardly and looking like an entirely separate game.

On-foot gameplay is essentially a completely different game or game mode however. Ship interiors wouldn't change that as any crossover would be secondary at best, just as it is now with air-to-ground and vice versa interactions. How would you define it being 'the same game'?

 

[Wobblin-Gobblin]

I won't buy it for sure!

 

[Kethriss]

Sure. Let's wait three or more years and FDev can invent millions while throwing away existing IP, until we get to play that alpha.

On-foot gameplay is essentially a completely different game or game mode however. Ship interiors wouldn't change that as any crossover would be secondary at best, just as it is now with air-to-ground and vice versa interactions. How would you define it being 'the same game'?

Frontier according to the London Stock Exchange is valued in at around $1.3 Billion USD with an estimated yearly revenue stream of around $110 Million. Their share value as of last close was $3392. Frontier has numerous IPs, numerous big-budget movie franchise license deals that bring in huge bank, and they are currently working on two games that aren't Elite.

They have MORE than enough cash to fund a better version of Elite: Dangerous and if waiting a few years means we get Elite but what Frontier's marketing department keeps lying to us about currently, then so be it. The longer and more effort they put in to making a good, finished product, the better.

 

[Decksmeck]

I think EDO is ultimately a good addition. It opens doors to gameplay that wouldn't be possible with just a ship and srv.

 

[Monk]

Frontier according to the London Stock Exchange is valued in at around $1.3 Billion USD with an estimated yearly revenue stream of around $110 Million. Their share value as of last close was $3392. Frontier has numerous IPs, numerous big-budget movie franchise license deals that bring in huge bank, and they are currently working on two games that aren't Elite.

They have MORE than enough cash to fund a better version of Elite: Dangerous and if waiting a few years means we get Elite but what Frontier's marketing department keeps lying to us about currently, then so be it. The longer and more effort they put in to making a good, finished product, the better.

To boot...I think even some of the AAA houses have proven there is an appetite for space games. A fresh game with a fresh marketing campaign that rides on the success (and shortcomings) of other big titles would be good timing.

I don't think that's Braben's vision...he seems steadfast on a long lifecycle for ED, which I can appreciate in its own way.

 

[[VR] James Constantine]

Frontier according to the London Stock Exchange is valued in at around $1.3 Billion USD with an estimated yearly revenue stream of around $110 Million. Their share value as of last close was $3392. Frontier has numerous IPs, numerous big-budget movie franchise license deals that bring in huge bank, and they are currently working on two games that aren't Elite.

You do understand that a comany valuation is not the same thing as "MORE than enough cash". Also, having the license to produce games based on a franchise, doesn't actually equate to owning that franchise. Even if it did, that doesn't help cash flow either, unless you you sell it.

They have MORE than enough cash to fund a better version of Elite: Dangerous and if waiting a few years means we get Elite but what Frontier's marketing department keeps lying to us about currently, then so be it. The longer and more effort they put in to making a good, finished product, the better.

Fanciful speculation at best, certainly based upon your 'analysis'. It additionally ignores the risks involved in a 'hard' reboot of the Elite franchise, not to mention that in the intervening time another title could appear and steal your player base before you even reach alpha.

We will not see a ED2 until long after the last few players have left the current iteration and switched off the lights.