Ships Small ships' niche in the metagame

I wish they would implement some missions where you would gain better results by using smaller ships. For example recon / spying missions where you should locate one or more pirate or naval vessels without being noticed. Or sneak in to a military area, pick up some black containers without the military ships noticing you. Maybe even salvage missions inside some huge destroyed ships full of small pirate ships/CMDR's hiding in the corners. I would love to fly around in Sidewinder silent running and hiding behind asteroids and stuff.

Also a repair module that could be used to repair bigger ships would be great. Maybe this module would come with some extended jump range to make Sidey wanted ship for the long range CMDR salvage missions.
 
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Why is that? Larger ship = larger space for internals, and a heavier mass for more accurate (assumingly) jumps.

Any game needs to have a tier system, where the Eagle and Hauler fall into a lower tier say to the Python and Asp. If the game was designed in such a way that an Eagle could be outfitted and compete in end-game content (or lack thereof) then what would the purpose be for other ships? There would need to be a line drawn somewhere, as I would not expect a fully A class Eagle (do we have a name for this yet?) to be able to wreck say a Python, it just wouldn't make sense.

Why would a larger mass lead to more accurate jumps? It's hard to discuss stuff like FSD function exactly, since we really don't know much of how it works, though.
I think a better general idea would be that ships with heavy items (weapons, armor, a filled cargo hold) would be shorter ranged in general, smaller ships in generalare (relatively) short ranged, and large long-range ships consume a lot of fuel. I definitely think that large range always should come at a cost. Some traders (maybe the Type-6 would fit this) could maybe have a really good range, even with a filled hold, and would be useful for avoiding dangerous systems, while larger merchants might have to pass through several systems on a trading journey, limiting their ability to avoid dangerous systems (and there should be systems that are dangerous to lone traders).

Then, there's a reason to pick the Type 6 over the Type 9, but there's still reason to advance to the Type 9, since the Type 9 is a huge freighter and the Type 6 is a medium-sized freighter.

What would be the purpose of the other ships? I would like to ask: What is the purpose of the ships that aren't ''top tier'' if they're just inferior stepping stones to the large ships?
Being a stepping stone is hardly a real purpose for a ship, especially considering the amount of work put down on creating them.
Making the Eagle stealthy, or faster, or making the Hauler a good smuggling ship, doesn't invalidate the purpose of other, larger ships.

Look at the Asp. Why would I ever want an Asp? It sluggish compared to the Cobra. However, it has other strengths, and has its own purpose and role that may or may not make me want to get it over the Cobra. This is how things should work, and yes, this is an untiered system, which does work, because your statement about every game needing a tier system is wrong (if you are actually seriously stating that)
 
I'm glad others share my gripes with small ships. I really want them to become viable in some field. Every ship should have a role instead of a straight upgrade. I love to fly the eagle, but in its currents state it's just bad. It's a smaller ship, yet is outran by most other ships? The weapons are pathetic with just C1 weaponry. The only advantage it has is it's turn rate which is nearly identical to the vulture that out classes it in EVERY other aspect. Everyone tells me the only reason to fly the eagle is because it's fun.

As far as combat goes, I like how EVE does it. Each size of ship is good at taking out the same size. The larger ships have a difficult time tracking the smaller ships, yet do a lot of damage if they do. Maybe instead of effecting ships themselves with tracking, they could effect weapon sizes instead? You could attach smaller weapons on the larger ships if you expect many small fighters, but then you'd do almost no damage to the larger ships. The C3 weapons would have slow tracking, but do a lot of damage and effective against large ships. This probably wouldn't work because of fixed weapons and a lot of the larger ships being just as maneuverable as the small ships.

Someone mentioned that the smaller ships should be harder to detect. While I'd love if there was a way to go completely off radar with either silent running or shutting down completely, I'm pretty sure Frontier said no to that. Even if you can't target them, this is no problem for fixed lasers. It messes up gimbals and kinetic weapons though.

Whatever happens, I want the small ships to be viable and not have to grind out the larger ships to be competitive.
 
I completely didn't take fuel into account regarding Jump Range, and I believe that Tier was the wrong word to use for ship progression, maybe step would have been more appropriate.

And don't get me wrong, the Eagle is my favorite looking ship, it has fantastic maneuverability and canopy sight, but then so does the Vulture, with bigger guns. I've only played this game for 100h when it came out on Steam, and I immediately saw the Eagle as the fighter (Leading to Viper then Vulture) Hauler as the Trader (Leading to Cobra then Type 6) and I cannot remember if there was an entry Exploring Ship that lead to the Asp. That lead me to incorrectly label the whole purchasing of new ships as a Tier system.

I'd personally want to see something like the Eagle having the fastest normal speed / boost speed (or greater than what it currently has), Hauler having the lowest heat signature for smuggling and so on. I don't have enough experience in the came nor have I played the other ships yet.
 
I think the idea that smaller ships are less detectable, both in normal space and supercruise, has real merit. Not only does it make for interesting combat, but also makes it a bit more difficult for gankers to interdict newbies.

The Eagle really isn't useless if you fly in wings, though. Four or five eagles dropping in to say hello, can do real damage, if they know how to play tag-team. Their real strength is the ability to stay in a target's blind zones. If anything, I would give them a bit more speed, but in such a way that they have the same speed with E thrusters, but progressively more than now with every level above.

The Sidewinder is good as it is; it is meant to be a starter ship only. They are incredibly small targets. Outfit them with long range weaponry and they can be really annoying.

Why the game is full of small NPC ships, beyond game design? Well... most people don't own their ships. They are hired hands that fly faction owned hardware and get paid for it. We are the lucky few, the Elite who could afford to buy ships of their own. When you think about how few credits some merchandise cost per ton, you realize that the Credit is an international trade coin. If they use credits planet side, they must be operating with credit cents/pence or something. Space ships, even the smallest ones, then have price tags that rival a home.
 
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You make some interesting points, and even though I'm not a fan of small ships at all, I can't say you are wrong, ditching my eagle at the start of the game was one of the easiest decisions I ever had to make.

Drawing from a discussion I started elsewhere a while ago, perhaps it would help if the big ships did not handle or fight like small ones, currently the larger ships hardpoints are best suited to dogfighting, and most of the best large ships can cruise and turn with the best of them, but what if large ships were more lumbering (in general anyway) and had the ability/incentive to rely on turrets for offensive capability, the differing play styles would probably spice up outfitting too, since everyone wouldnt simply be gravitating toward one of the hand full of top ships for their professions.
 
Would it help if things like smuggling cargo would be far easier in a small ship? (maybe coupled to the lower detectivity aspects discussed above)?
 
Why is that? Larger ship = larger space for internals, and a heavier mass for more accurate (assumingly) jumps.

Any game needs to have a tier system, where the Eagle and Hauler fall into a lower tier say to the Python and Asp. If the game was designed in such a way that an Eagle could be outfitted and compete in end-game content (or lack thereof) then what would the purpose be for other ships? There would need to be a line drawn somewhere, as I would not expect a fully A class Eagle (do we have a name for this yet?) to be able to wreck say a Python, it just wouldn't make sense.

Why does a motorcycle with a 1 liter engine blow the doors off a car with a 5 liter engine? Power to weight ratio. Making smaller ships faster, with longer range and using less fuel would give them a reason to exist, once everybody and their co-pilot have eleventy-million credits in the bank.
 
It would be amusing if a wing of 4 Eagles was something to be genuinely worried about :)

They usually hit me in fives, and it *hurts*. Even in a Vulture. You can not kill them fast enough before your shields are breached.

Sarah likes to hit you with five Sidewinders as well. One such pirate group chased me for three jumps.

The Adder is a great small explorer. It's the Super Sidewinder (look at the speed/maneuver stats).

There needs to be a Viper sized ship, with four medium hardpoints, and three utility hardpoints. With the advent of the Vulture, the Viper is no longer viable, long-term. Ships have to be cheap, like the Eagle/Sidewinder, or monsters like the Vulture.
 
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I think that there NEEDS to be more expensive small form factor ships. It doesn't make sense that the only expensive ships are humongous. Why not a tiny nimble fighter with the price point of an FDL? the other issue is like people have said, the gimball/turret tracking of small ships. AFAIK the guns track just as well against a small ship as a larger one. Adding in a % penalty just like the class size penalty would balance out the small ship game again and would make perfect sense. I'm really kind of bummed that small ships like the eagle are completely useless. The viper is the closest it comes but is outclassed by any fdl or python. This results in everyone just flying the larger classes ships when they can afford them. Leads to a very monotonous game combat wise.
 
I would love a super light, compact explorer ship with a relatively oversized FSD and just enough room to fit all explorer stuff! Maybe hauler/adder sized, but good :)
 
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I agree that smaller ships should have better chances by giving them option to be faster as larger ships. Right now if you enter combat zone in sidewinder/eagle/viper your best chance if you see players in fer de lance, clipper just get out as soon as possible because if they lock on your ship they can outrun you, lock you down with mass lock and than you just pray your frameshift drive gives you an edge to jump off but if they are close you can say good bye.
 
I'll throw some of my own thoughts into the ring, not that I haven't expressed any of these more than once already in other places. :)

- Price should never be the defining balancing factor. Having more credits than someone else shouldn't almost buy you an auto-win.

- The same goes for rebuy cost. It doesn't help you that for one death in a Vulture, you can afford to die many times in a Viper. Each death also destroys all your you combat bonds, bounty claims etc., so you cannot strategize around dying more often than someone with a bigger, more expensive ship.

- Speed and agility should roughly be higher the smaller a ship is. Yes, what I am saying is the smaller ships should be made faster. The Viper should reach a Cobra's boost speed (regular speed unchanged), the Eagle should have similar speed (at least what the Viper has now, with acceleration and deceleration increased accordingly so that it takes no longer than now to reach top speed or slow down again). The Sidewinder, Hauler and Adder all need to be faster, and probably deserve a boost to their jump ranges or the way mass (i.e. cargo) affects their jump range. Yes, an empty Hauler can jump 27Ly, but with cargo it just smaller distances than a Cobra with cargo, weapons and other equipment. And since the Adder is to have some sort of exploration focus, it may need a small boost to its jump range, too.

- One aspect about speed that is mentioned too rarely, imho, is not just the idea of escape or pursuit (both important things already), but that there exists a natural tactic against ships that are smaller and more fragile than you: backwards flying. Try it, take a Python, engage an Eagle, use backwards throttle, and just keep the Eagle in sight. It has no chance other than running away as soon as you implement this tactic (in which case it is hardly any faster than the mediocre speed of the Python). If it uses boost to get behind you, by the time it has slowed down again and turns around from its boosting, you have turned around, too, and are facing it again already. With sufficient non-boost speed, a small ship could overcome any backwards movement of a bigger ship in order to get out of the firing arcs of their fixed or gimballed weapons, and attack from the flank or behind.

- Outliers to the above rule (speed and agility being the exclusive domain of small ships) are fine, but need to be balanced by sufficient downsides. For example the Clipper, very fast and agile for its huge size, is a very fragile big target (both hull and shields), and has so weak vertical+lateral thrusters that it suffers from massive drift; by the time you have completed a regular 180° turn with FAON at 50% throttle, you see yourself going backwards and still decelerating. This is an example of how it is done right.

- Why is it that the Vulture, as a dedicated heavy fighter and big ship killer, also is the superior dogfighter against smaller ships, even smaller dedicated fighters? It makes no sense apart from some misplaced level-based linear progression thinking. And unlike the Clipper, all of its downsides - jump range, power starvation - are shared in equal or bigger proportion by the smaller ships.

- That some small ship may be deadly in a wing of four, is a strawman. A wing of four Vultures is still exponentially more deadly than a wing of four Eagles. The argument would only work if wings were not capped by ship count, but total ship value, so that for every Vulture one may have in their wing, you could also have multiple Eagles together taking up only a single slot. This however is impossible for a variety of gameplay and technical reasons, so the entire argument is moot. A ship must be valuable on its own.

- And example for perfect balance within the game is the Cobra vs Asp. The former is faster, and more agile, the latter is more heavily armed and protected, carries more cargo and has a bigger jump range. Each of the two ships has areas where it excels the other, while being not so extremely niche that having one of each ever appears mandatory.

- An idea for a game mechanic that might help give smaller an edge in a special way: limited reverse boost. An exclusive ability of only the retro-thrusters of smaller ships, a reverse-oriented boost function that also uses ENG power to rapidly slow down the ship to its current throttle setting. E.g. when flying an Eagle, you could boost past a ship to get behind it, then reverse-boost to quickly get back to the 50% throttle setting you still hold, turn around and immediately attack again where a bigger ship would still need time to bleed off speed before its velocity gets into decent maneuvering territory.

- Another idea - widen the blue zone of smaller ships, and have it stretch all the way out to their top speeds, so that they can maintain decent turn rates over a larger range of velocities than a bigger ship.

- Scanner visibility scaling with ship size in addition to heat is a nice idea, and definitely should happen both in normal space and supercruise.

- Weapon damage penalties versus bigger ship classes (small weapons: 66% vs large hulls, 33% vs medium hulls; medium weapons: 33% vs large hulls) are probably a mistake. They over-penalize the already significantly weaker weapons. In any case the current penalties are too big. Let's start with reducing them, for example to 20% and 40% respectively, and see how much that helps.

- If weapon damage penalties are there to stay, then we could have a form of an inverse, too. Why not arbitrate weapons by precision vs output? What I mean is, that small turrets and gimballed weapons should have a faster tracking speed than right now, medium should stay as is, large and especially huge weapons should have reduced tracking speed, so that, averaged out over time, a class 3 gimballed laser is no more effective attacking a Sidewinder, than a class 1 gimballed laser - the former hits harder when it its, the latter hits weaker but much more often. (This could also greatly incentivise using a small ship in your wing, to fend off other small and medium ships, as they could be more effective at that task than a bunch of large gimballed lasers mounted onto an Anaconda.) Fixed weapons could have better convergence the smaller the weapon class, with medium again staying roughly as is, large ones having significantly less, and huge weapons almost none at all.
 
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This was an idea I put out in the suggestion forum a few days back.


  • Stolen Goods-

When Jettisoning Cargo, there should be an option to implant a stolen cargo flag that is activated at a later time; the cargo would look identical to any other cargo, but would be labeled as stolen after a certain amount of time. It would be necessary for the player to purchase a Cargo Tracking Beacon, perhaps a size 1/2 module, to have this option. For instance, I leave Eravate with my Type-6, with a Size 2 Cargo Tracking Beacon. While on my way to my next stop, I'm interdicted by a player who demands I drop 10 tons of cargo. At the time I choose Jettison from the cargo screen, I can pick "Jettison Cargo (Tracked)". Based on the grade of my Cargo Tracker, a timer begins for the cargo to be flagged as stolen. Everything goes as planned, and the Pirate leaves to sell. Just before he arrives at dock, the Tracking Beacon activates and his cargo is flagged as stolen.​

There are a couple of modifications that can be made to this as well, for instance, it could be that when selling cargo on the Commodity Market that isn't yet flagged as stolen, but has a tracker, the player would accrue a fine or bounty when the timer expires to represent the cargo being searched and the tracker found. There could also be ways for the pirate to scan the cargo (Advanced Cargo Scanner?) to detect if a player is trying to pull a fast one and deal with the situation accordingly.



  • Ship Upkeep and Transport-

Kind of an oft-repeated request in that players would have the options to purchase transport or to have their ships transported to their current location for a fee based on distance. The other part to it, however, would be that the ships that are stored would accrue upkeep costs to be paid when swapping for your current ship. You could elect to sell the ship in storage (minus the upkeep costs) instead of paying the upkeep if you changed your mind. This would allow players to keep multiple ships in storage while also creating a money sink for the luxury of having a fleet at your fingertips.​

The transport in particular should also take some time in addition to the cost. If you were to ask a ship be brought to you from 200LY away, it might take an hour to reach your station.



  • Variable Wing Sizes-
Currently, the maximum Wing size is 4. This may be driven by a limitation in the engine (perhaps for console release). Therefore, I have two optional suggestions regarding wings based on if it is or it isn't a technical limitation.

The Wing Size would remain at a maximum of 4, but could now have a lower maximum based on the ships in the Wing. Wings would be converted to having a maximum points value of 26; each ship in the game would have a different points value based on their size and effectiveness. These point values would be modified to allow a maximum of 4 in the wing if the wing size must remain a constant, but a rough-up of the values is as follows:

SidewinderEagleHaulerAdderViperCobraType-6VultureAspType-7DropshipClipperOrcaFDLPythonType-9Anaconda
Points Value (Wing of 4)666677688888810101012
Points Value (Wing of 6)44446657778881010812
Obviously there are a lot of variables to be taken into account, but effectively what you'd end up with is some sort of modular wing size that allows smaller ships to fly in greater numbers than larger ships. The goal would be to make it so that you can mix and match larger ships with smaller to create a more effective wing. In the second case (my preferred option), you could have a single Anaconda equipped with larger fixed weaponry such as Class 3 & 4 Plasma Accelerators for use on opposing large ships, with two Vultures as escorts and Interceptors. You easily could then encounter an opposing group of 6 Eagles, which would make for a much more interesting battle.





Psycho Romeo added an idea as well that instead of using points values, we could just limit it by ship size class, so a Large ship would be three points and a Small only 1, to a maximum Wing Size of say 6. Certainly easier to balance, the only trick there is how we make sure the Sidewinders get used instead of nothing but Vultures within the size class.
 
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I agree with the general idea from the OP and what many others have stated.
Every ship should have a reason for existing.
If a ship is more expensive, it shouldn't just be better in every way, there needs to be advantages and disadvantages to every ship.

For trading you have: hauler, adder, cobra, type 6, asp, type 7, clipper, python, type 9, anaconda.
Anaconda is viewed by many players as the best trade ship, if you can afford one why use the others?
Python has most cargo capacity that can land at platforms,
Type 9 has most cargo capacity,
Clipper is very fast for its large cargo capacity.
hauler, adder, cobra, type 6, asp and type 7 are all useless if you can afford one of the others.

For combat you have: eagle, adder, viper, cobra, vulture, asp, clipper, python, fdl, anaconda.
FDL and vulture are considered by many players right now to be the 2 best combat ships.
The anaconda and python are too slow to be able to engage the other ships.
The eagle, adder, viper, cobra, asp and clipper can't compete in combat.

For exploration you have: adder, cobra, type 6, asp, anaconda.
Anaconda has the best jump range, asp has the best view.
Why explore in an adder, cobra or type 6 if you have more credits?

The Orca and Dropship are passenger transports, until this is added to the game they are underpowered as combat or trading ships.

In my opinion, the Anaconda, Python, Type 9 (probably not though), FDL, Asp, Clipper and Vulture have a purpose in the game.
Thats 6 ships, 7 counting the type 9, out of 17 ships. The Diamondback and Courier might not add to the 6 useful ships, so 6 out of 19.

I don't think I've overlooked any ships.
 
If the game was designed in such a way that an Eagle could be outfitted and compete in end-game content (or lack thereof) then what would the purpose be for other ships? There would need to be a line drawn somewhere, as I would not expect a fully A class Eagle (do we have a name for this yet?) to be able to wreck say a Python, it just wouldn't make sense.

I am sorry but that is not a logical argument for ship progression: a narrow and ultimately dead-end MMO mechanic. Besides even if you wanted to have a shallow game that revolved around crushing grinds and game-breaking rewards, a fully upgraded "super" Eagle could easily cost as much or more than a Python. As for realism, lets not forget that Luke took down the DeathStar in a humble X-Wing.
 
I love my Eagle and Viper but I feel like they are just stepping stones on the path to the Vulture or FDL.
It would be great if these smaller ships had a niche that bigger ships couldn't fulfill.

It's not necessary that these cheap ships can outright beat the bigger ships 1v1 but it would be nice if they had some purpose even when you have heaps of money.
It would help reduce the feeling that many people have that they are forced to grind to upgrade ships.

Some interesting niche uses might be:
- Scout/Recon missions: No need for a big ships, just need speed and manoueverability. If they give smaller ships smaller sensor profiles that might also help them in this area.
- Blockade running/Courier: As above no need for big ships just enough armament to discourage pursuers. In addition in the older games light ships were much quicker in hyperspace which allowed them to complete missions which larger ships were simply too slow for. Difficult to work this into the current travel system, though perhaps a military-class FSD which has higher fuel costs but gives small ships massively improved jump range could help. (Only available to naval ranked pilots?)
- Module targeting: Rather than just outright destroying bigger ships, smaller ships could be used to disable bigger ships (though the current power plant targeting meta makes this pointless at the moment). Perhaps hits against hull armour suffer the small vs. large damage penalty but module hits are unaffected.

As an aside if some changes are made to the viability of small ships I might consider coughing up some cash for the skins as well.
 
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