General / Off-Topic So... Do we have free will? :)

With running the risk of derailing the thread i'll quickly answer this:
I lost most of my friends after my twins died (in 2008),
and when 2 years and 4 years 8respectively) after that both my parents suffered from cancer and Parkinson's/PSP respectively,
i stopped caring about even trying to make new ones.
Besides, you'd wonder how quickly these friends vanish when you're going through hell.
Even the ones who tried to hang on for a while, and they get my respect for that (i mean that)


(my paranoia remark was a joke, just so no one thinks i actually meant that)

Kurt Cobain, a true genius with a temper.
Talent always comes with a very high price,
trust me i know what it means, if there's anything i have plenty of, it's talent.
And i can relate why he made his choice.
Me, i still want to kick a few behinds before i go,
and i don't think i would ever make that choice,
as life's a lightray passing through a wormhole,
you blink once and half your life's is behind you,
making you wonder were you left it.
No need to fasten it up even more.



Anyhow, sorry
back on topic
Damn. Now I'm depressed. My kids are my life, and I shudder to think what that did to you. So sorry to hear that, ArtiX.
 
...
Besides, you'd wonder how quickly these friends vanish when you're going through hell.
Even the ones who tried to hang on for a while, and they get my respect for that (i mean that)
I'm sorry to hear that.
...
Not even close to your harsh fate, but I already lost most of my friends for much less: when I stopped smoking in 2006 I had to realize that practically all my friends, smokers every single one, obviously felt uncomfortable to deal with a sudden non-smoker. Strangely on topic in a thread about free will, though losing my friends wasn't exactly what I wanted. My best and last remaining friend (of course a strong smoker, too) and his wife both passed away last year.

I can't complain as I'm still on the sunny side of life, thanks to a wonderful wife and a son, both safe and sound (knocking on wood). But last year taught me how quickly and brutal these things can change...
 
Damn. Now I'm depressed. My kids are my life, and I shudder to think what that did to you. So sorry to hear that, ArtiX.
Sorry that wasn't my intention, and thank you, you wouldn't believe how few people actually have shown any empathy towards me during all that time,
and all that is just the tip of the iceberg, even. That's why nowadays i usually keep to myself, and in the process, developed quite a temper.
But one thing to there's left to say. People can throw nuclear bombs at me as much as they like. Nothing is going to stop me from doing my thing.
Even in the PlanCo community i'm quite unpopular, even though i'm lightyears ahead in terms of asset creation and all the mechanics.
People really only sympathize with the unreal, but when you have the guts to say your opinion without decorating it with cute flowers,
well, doesn't matter. People will just hate you. They forget, i have a good memory, too.

So, free will... like Morbad said in an earlier post, i guess we spend most of our lives trying to figure out whether we have a free will or whether
we just follow our instincts based on our experiences. Which in any case affects that so called aura, you eminate what you feel inside.

And please don't feel bad, just defend your family with all might.
Cause no one else will. (trust me, i've been there)



I'm sorry to hear that.
...
Not even close to your harsh fate, but I already lost most of my friends for much less: when I stopped smoking in 2006 I had to realize that practically all my friends, smokers every single one, obviously felt uncomfortable to deal with a sudden non-smoker. Strangely on topic in a thread about free will, though losing my friends wasn't exactly what I wanted. My best and last remaining friend (of course a strong smoker, too) and his wife both passed away last year.

I can't complain as I'm still on the sunny side of life, thanks to a wonderful wife and a son, both safe and sound (knocking on wood). But last year taught me how quickly and brutal these things can change...
I'm sorry to hear that, you're German, too, aren't you?
 
Sorry that wasn't my intention, and thank you, you wouldn't believe how few people actually have shown any empathy towards me during all that time,
and all that is just the tip of the iceberg, even. That's why nowadays i usually keep to myself, and in the process, developed quite a temper.
But one thing to there's left to say. People can throw nuclear bombs at me as much as they like. Nothing is going to stop me from doing my thing.
Even in the PlanCo community i'm quite unpopular, even though i'm lightyears ahead in terms of asset creation and all the mechanics.
People really only sympathize with the unreal, but when you have the guts to say your opinion without decorating it with cute flowers,
well, doesn't matter. People will just hate you.
Empathy and sympathy are strange things. I think there is great social pressure on both sides of any unfortunate situation to express these feelings in certain ways. When one party or the other gets too real, too honest, too blunt, it upends those expectations...which quickly separates those that actually understand and care from those just going through the motions.

I can empathise with your loss, have no animosity toward you, and would wish your experience on very few. However, you are ultimately a stranger and, if I am to be honest, the degree with which I'm willing to express sympathy or feel your loss personally is limited. True sympathy is a lot of work and deeper empathy results in a lot of pain, so I reserve them for precious few.

You do have my understanding though and I certainly won't judge you for how you deal with your pain.

Cause no one else will.
One of the few meaningful truths in life.
 
Just following the flow here.
Depression, must be viewed, as one to the oppressors of free will. It has a silent way, of shutting us down, lowering our form and turning us into grey automatons; lacking free will, in all it forms.

So: We seem to have consensus that free will is a basic trait that most thinking lifeforms have; including humans. So what are the barriers preventing us using it and act upon it.
Religion?
Political correctness?
Social pressure?
All of which are a 'need to conform'.

Anything else?
 
More bad news, it just never cedes to stop, great..

Empathy and sympathy are strange things. I think there is great social pressure on both sides of any unfortunate situation to express these feelings in certain ways. When one party or the other gets too real, too honest, too blunt, it upends those expectations...which quickly separates those that actually understand and care from those just going through the motions.

I can empathise with your loss, have no animosity toward you, and would wish your experience on very few. However, you are ultimately a stranger and, if I am to be honest, the degree with which I'm willing to express sympathy or feel your loss personally is limited. True sympathy is a lot of work and deeper empathy results in a lot of pain, so I reserve them for precious few.

You do have my understanding though and I certainly won't judge you for how you deal with your pain.



One of the few meaningful truths in life.
Regarding sympathy (and i like how you didn't try to mask it, but how you said your thoughts)
Yes and no. Let's just assume for the sake of analogy, i wouldn't have gone through hell.
(and as i said, just the tip of the iceberg i told you about, the rest.. am not looking for attention)

So if in consequence i would perceive the world more positively, be all nice and never say what i actually think, honeydew everything and every one,
be more positive and outgoing (which is much easier when you're unscathed), the level of empathy i would get back (again, in a hypothetical scenario)
Would be just like with every other nice and sweet person. What people lack is the judgement and understandment how some can't be like that,
even if they wanted to, even if inside, they are the sweetest person there can be. Let's not forget, it's also a coping- and selfdefense mechanism.
But they see someone antagonistic and they paint a picture in their heads, as he must be the enemy.
That's why it's even harder for anyone who been through very tough times to make their peace, you don't just fight those demons,
no you also fight all those who deliberately make it harder for you, just because they don't like you for your way of coping.
If a baby cries, pretty much every one would feel an empathy and try and ease the crying. If the baby is beyond the crying,
feeling angry, kicking and screaming, it would be different, even though you still feel you gotta help.
I came to accept that's apparently how the World works.
But i can't tell you, THAT can make the broken to villains, to become monsters.
And it takes a lot of mental strength not to succumb to the constantly twisting gut,
the rage that's fed from the pain and disappointment (like the black hole being fed).

I don't know if you understand what i'm trying to say, but i feel all that, and yet i wouldn't fall victim to my own hatred.
But this is how some are driven into madness, or into a husk without emotional foundations, with no empathy.
It's not their free will to turn into that, but are driven towards it.

Concerning me, i can tell you why i'm safe from falling into that pit.
It is my creative output, my ideas, my music. And the fact i, for half my life, wanted to write a scifi book about this kind of mindset.
Though only now i really know how someone like that really ticks. My art keeps me safe, as absurd as that sounds.
One thing that i often fail to understand though, people say they adore talent, but in reality all they care for is the illusion,
it's easier to fall for an illusion that is being fed to them than to actually use their own spoons and try the pudding.
(referring to an english saying "The proof of the pudding is in the eating").
That's why merchandising and Pop-culture work so perfectly on us.
That has little to do with free will. Pop Culture, thinking of it, is actually a great example for the lack of free will.
You're being fed a product, be it a song that's played on the radio over and over.
(it's proven people are more likely to buy, when they are constantly being fed with it, it's actually common practice in the music industry to make use of this human weakness)
"But when you say, hey i spent two years on this song, made it all by myself" they perceive it much differently than they would had they "discovered" it through the
regular MusicIndustry tools. Often the image is what sells the artist, not the music at first.

hm, tried to keep it short actually. :unsure:
---------------------------------------------------
  • Political opression
  • Perception
  • social engineering
  • past decisions
  • Wealth, or the lack of
  • Family ties
  • Time constraints, conflicting preemptive decisions
  • Emotions, love, anger, sympathy
  • Skill, education
  • Age
  • environmental influences (i don't mean the weather by that)
  • "fate"
  • nationality
 
Just following the flow here.
Depression, must be viewed, as one to the oppressors of free will. It has a silent way, of shutting us down, lowering our form and turning us into grey automatons; lacking free will, in all it forms.

So: We seem to have consensus that free will is a basic trait that most thinking lifeforms have; including humans. So what are the barriers preventing us using it and act upon it.
Religion?
Political correctness?
Social pressure?
All of which are a 'need to conform'.

Anything else?
I would say that political correctness and social pressure are absolutely about taking away your free will as the end game. Just look at the reformation of universities in Canada, for instance.
 
I would say that political correctness and social pressure are absolutely about taking away your free will as the end game. Just look at the reformation of universities in Canada, for instance.
Or anywhere else, really.
Political correctness is effectively a combination of threat and emotional blackmail. It's probably the worst offense to free speech and ultimately, free anything, really. It suppresses individualism and free thinking and encourages mob bullying and echo chambers.
An ultimate bane of western civilization, if you ask me (not that you did :))
 
I'd argue that intentionally giving offense where it can be avoided, being willfully ignorant of how one's behavior could be seen as offensive, or being unwilling to provide reasonable accommodation once it becomes clear that offense was taken, are all things that demonstrate a lack of respect for others. However, the same could be said for taking offense as well; an honest mistake is not the same thing as an attack and going out of one's way to see offense where none was implied doesn't benefit anyone. Political correctness is a problem, but so are irrational or fallicious accusations of political correctness where actual double standards are being applied to harmful effect. For example, someone who gets offended when the wrong pronoun or title is used to describe them, who then refuses to address someone else in the manner they'd prefer, using an aversion for political correctness as an excuse, is just a disrespectful hypocrite. Of course, that would still be a legitamate exercise of free speech.

Anyway, outside pressures don't really seem to apply to the question of free-will, in the sense of this thread, just the potential consequences for exercising it. The mechanisms, deterministic, random, or an honest exercise of the will, are still present, even if the inputs change.
 
More bad news, it just never cedes to stop, great..



Regarding sympathy (and i like how you didn't try to mask it, but how you said your thoughts)
Yes and no. Let's just assume for the sake of analogy, i wouldn't have gone through hell.
(and as i said, just the tip of the iceberg i told you about, the rest.. am not looking for attention)

So if in consequence i would perceive the world more positively, be all nice and never say what i actually think, honeydew everything and every one,
be more positive and outgoing (which is much easier when you're unscathed), the level of empathy i would get back (again, in a hypothetical scenario)
Would be just like with every other nice and sweet person. What people lack is the judgement and understandment how some can't be like that,
even if they wanted to, even if inside, they are the sweetest person there can be. Let's not forget, it's also a coping- and selfdefense mechanism.
But they see someone antagonistic and they paint a picture in their heads, as he must be the enemy.
That's why it's even harder for anyone who been through very tough times to make their peace, you don't just fight those demons,
no you also fight all those who deliberately make it harder for you, just because they don't like you for your way of coping.
If a baby cries, pretty much every one would feel an empathy and try and ease the crying. If the baby is beyond the crying,
feeling angry, kicking and screaming, it would be different, even though you still feel you gotta help.
I came to accept that's apparently how the World works.
But i can't tell you, THAT can make the broken to villains, to become monsters.
And it takes a lot of mental strength not to succumb to the constantly twisting gut,
the rage that's fed from the pain and disappointment (like the black hole being fed).

I don't know if you understand what i'm trying to say, but i feel all that, and yet i wouldn't fall victim to my own hatred.
But this is how some are driven into madness, or into a husk without emotional foundations, with no empathy.
It's not their free will to turn into that, but are driven towards it.

Concerning me, i can tell you why i'm safe from falling into that pit.
It is my creative output, my ideas, my music. And the fact i, for half my life, wanted to write a scifi book about this kind of mindset.
Though only now i really know how someone like that really ticks. My art keeps me safe, as absurd as that sounds.
One thing that i often fail to understand though, people say they adore talent, but in reality all they care for is the illusion,
it's easier to fall for an illusion that is being fed to them than to actually use their own spoons and try the pudding.
(referring to an english saying "The proof of the pudding is in the eating").
That's why merchandising and Pop-culture work so perfectly on us.
That has little to do with free will. Pop Culture, thinking of it, is actually a great example for the lack of free will.
You're being fed a product, be it a song that's played on the radio over and over.
(it's proven people are more likely to buy, when they are constantly being fed with it, it's actually common practice in the music industry to make use of this human weakness)
"But when you say, hey i spent two years on this song, made it all by myself" they perceive it much differently than they would had they "discovered" it through the
regular MusicIndustry tools. Often the image is what sells the artist, not the music at first.

hm, tried to keep it short actually. :unsure:
---------------------------------------------------
  • Political opression
  • Perception
  • social engineering
  • past decisions
  • Wealth, or the lack of
  • Family ties
  • Time constraints, conflicting preemptive decisions
  • Emotions, love, anger, sympathy
  • Skill, education
  • Age
  • environmental influences (i don't mean the weather by that)
  • "fate"
  • nationality
They say that it is love and tragedy; that have inspired some of the greatest works of art and literature.
 
...
Anyway, outside pressures don't really seem to apply to the question of free-will, in the sense of this thread, just the potential consequences for exercising it. The mechanisms, deterministic, random, or an honest exercise of the will, are still present, even if the inputs change.
You mean, if broken down to the essence of the process, right?
From that angle, yeah i can support that argument.

But it does affect the scope of with which you're able to make a decision.
And on that microscale the border between free will and instincts or whatever you like to call it really do wash out.

Like you can't say something bc of political correctness, your thought process still exercises the smaller decisions leading to the greater decision.
That would break open another question, can free will only be applied to decisions you are fully aware of, or the decisions you don't even think about.

What i mean by that is something along the lines of:
If you type a word, your thought process is on a per sentence or per word level, but you hardly think about every letter you type in the process of forming words,
that's the decisions that happen on a subliminal level. So, as weird as it sounds, but from that angle it would be a combinations of free decisionmalking
versus trained i.e. musclememory. quick reactions are another good example of that ino.


They say that it is love and tragedy; that have inspired some of the greatest works of art and literature.
True, very true. At the same time, art and literature are quite relative in their reception. Timing being an important factor.
 
Last edited:
Or anywhere else, really.
Political correctness is effectively a combination of threat and emotional blackmail. It's probably the worst offense to free speech and ultimately, free anything, really. It suppresses individualism and free thinking and encourages mob bullying and echo chambers.
An ultimate bane of western civilization, if you ask me (not that you did :))
I agree. I merely cited Canada because I have so many recent egregious examples to easily draw from, and it's further down that slippery slope than America is. Give us ten more years and the thought police will have the centers of education pretty much sewn up here in the States, too, for example.

I know that it's a bit of a deviation from the original premise, but of far FAR greater utility to all of us is the question of how much society under the guise of political correctness strives to rob us of what free will we do posses. This is a battle that is both blatant as well as creepily insidious, and it's being waged against us by a never ending tide who's sole aim is to either beat our free thinking and free will down, or failing that to crush us utterly in order to silence our voices. It's a very real battle, whilst the question of free will and whether we possess it or not is nothing but an abstraction of no practical utility to us whatsoever.
 
I agree. I merely cited Canada because I have so many recent egregious examples to easily draw from, and it's further down that slippery slope than America is. Give us ten more years and the thought police will have the centers of education pretty much sewn up here in the States, too, for example.

I know that it's a bit of a deviation from the original premise, but of far FAR greater utility to all of us is the question of how much society under the guise of political correctness strives to rob us of what free will we do posses. This is a battle that is both blatant as well as creepily insidious, and it's being waged against us by a never ending tide who's sole aim is to either beat our free thinking and free will down, or failing that to crush us utterly in order to silence our voices. It's a very real battle, whilst the question of free will and whether we possess it or not is nothing but an abstraction of no practical utility to us whatsoever.
OK.
 
Here's some meat to the topic. Quite disturbing stuff that questions a lot of what I'm used to believe, while at the same time seems to point into a direction of one of my more quixotic theories: that our brain might be an interface to our true consciousness rather than it's location. This would require consciousness made of a yet unknown matter - or no matter at all, something no serious scientist would sign of course.

But these are just my own (admittedly pretty esoteric) conjectures, while the stuff below is pure science:

Neuroscience of free will

Here's a video that demonstrates it in a more accessible way (the truly disturbing stuff starts at 8:30, but I would suggest to watch the whole thing)

John-Dylan Haynes: Do We Have Free Will?
 
Last edited:
Here's some meat to the topic. Quite disturbing stuff that questions a lot of what I'm used to believe, while at the same time seems to point into a direction of one of my more quixotic theories: that our brain might be an interface to our true consciousness rather than it's location. This would require consciousness made of a yet unknown matter - or no matter at all, something no serious scientist would sign of course.

But these are just my own (admittedly pretty esoteric) conjectures, while the stuff below is pure science:

Neuroscience of free will
Lobotomy, is know to suppress self awareness, possibly detaching consciousness. So logically; we are in there somewhere. A big bunch of neurons bouncing about.
 
I'm trying to decide whether your response is truly deep...or just a partial sentence that you forgot to complete before tapping "Post reply."
it was a test. The impression was that the thread was locked.

Ok, is just enough, to peek interest and guarantee a response. You took longer than I expected.
 
If you understand German, this one is quite interesting:
Das Rätsel unseres Bewusstseins
German, much overrated.



(reading)



Yes we Germans are really mean, we use our own language to hide all the good stuff from everyone else 😎





it was a test. The impression was that the thread was locked.

Ok, is just enough, to peek interest and guarantee a response. You took longer than I expected.
Yeah, the average post count per minute in here did receive a dent for a few minutes
 
Top Bottom