TBH I'm unsure, I really thought that Newtonian Physics were completely deterministic but later on I read that may not be the case since differential equations may have multiple solutions or in other words, different possible outcomes. The debate will keep going and regardless, I'll act as if free will exists even if it happens to not exist.
General / Off-Topic So... Do we have free will? :)
- Thread starter WeComeInPeace
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TBH I'm unsure, I really thought that Newtonian Physics were completely deterministic but later on I read that may not be the case since differential equations may have multiple solutions or in other words, different possible outcomes. The debate will keep going and regardless, I'll act as if free will exists even if it happens to not exist.
Same here.
When you solve Einstein's equations locally and at low speeds, they spit out Newton.
Once we solve how to incorporate gravity into quantum theory, solving quantum equations for massive objects and high speeds will point back to Einstein.
It's all one and the same. A part of the universal wave function. We know bits and pieces but it's like looking at the meadow through a pinhole. You see something here, something there and if you put one and one together, you can kind of guess how the whole meadow looks like, but it's not the same as looking at it in its entirety.
Maybe one day. We will see the meadow and even understand how it works with all the flowers and insects and deer grazing grass.
When you solve Einstein's equations locally and at low speeds, they spit out Newton.
Once we solve how to incorporate gravity into quantum theory, solving quantum equations for massive objects and high speeds will point back to Einstein.
It all one and the same. A part of the universal wave function. We know bits and pieces but it's like looking at the meadow through a pinhole. You see something here, something there and if you put one and one together, you can kind of guess how the whole meadow look like, but it's not the same as looking at it in its entirety.
Maybe one day.
String theory for the win.
I don't find these to be compatible statements. The mind is what the brain performs and the brain is a physical, biological, construct of very finite complexity. If we understand neurology in sufficient detail, we'll understand the mind.
Perhaps we won't be able to account for the unpredictability of quantum effects well enough to make a simulated mind that performs as a perfectly accurate facsimile of the mind it was based on (whether biological or other), but we will definitely understand it as well as we can understand anything.
Science and common sense have little to do with biblical angles.
To my benefit? Is that an insult or just naivity?
I think you are very naive to think you can convince someone into believing something you believe in.
I can also argument to "your benefit" but you will surely not see it that way
There is no god, period. But i'm not gonna be in your face about it, you can believe in whatever you like,
BUT when you try to push it, i will say my opinion loud and clear. You're not the first to try that, surely not the last,
but be advised most of these people eventually got quite the verbal slap from me.
It certainly ain't my loss either. And don't even try to make believe religion is knowledge, it's belief, nothing more nothing less.
Scriptures haven't in the slightest anything to do with knowledge,
unless it's the kind of knowledge a Trekkie or Star Wars fan would have about the lore of their story universe.
But if you want to make believe how Theology is anything like science, i think you are making a fool of yourself.
Serious question, how old are you?
Not that it's any of your business, but in my lifetime i've experienced more than a fair share of life and death,
i've seen the best and the worst humanity can bring up.
And one thing i always noticed is how religion makes people think they have an afterlife, how they are guided by a higher entitiy that judges over them,
which makes people become lazy about making the best of their lifes WHILE THEY LIVE. Which is absurd.
But then again, it's every one's own choice what they do with their lives.
You're not challenging anything here, except for your own personal challenge to try and convince me of something i can't be convinced of,
You're only making me wonder for how much longer this planet will have to endure the clamp of religion.
Oh wait, you are challenging something in me, my ability to stay calm and nice.
So without further ado, i will not discuss religion in this thread anymore.
Open a new thread if you want to discuss theology or scriptures,
i'm sure some will join you in the conversation, but continuing to do so here will only result in everyone ignoring you here.
I don't have free will, I have to do what the missus tells me to do.
Pics or it didn't happen.
It's too traumatic.Pics or it didn't happen.
We exist in a Multiverse. that's an infinite number of universes where every meaningful decision of every autonomous creature that ever exist(s)ed creates alternatives, in ways we do not (as yet) understand.
The prob is, we aren't built to understand "Infinite".
The prob is, we aren't built to understand "Infinite".
I also like the multiverse theory, but with regards to OP question it can be understood either way.
1) thanks to infinite branching the free will (ability to make choices) is infinite
2) as we are following branch after branch linearly, there's effectively NO free will, because we can't decide based on anything else but our branch and can't experience consequences beyond our own branch. (I.e. "although there effectively was a point of choosing, we now live in a branch where only one choice exists (the one we "chose")" - the collective multiverse me each chose differently, but we now live in a universe where only our one choice was ever real)
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If MWI is correct, then any event will cause a split of the Universe, meaning that considering the amount of events, the linear part of the branch, will be "infinitely" small compared to the time it takes the brain to make a choice. The weird thing is that you continue in two separate minds after each split, but right now in this moment, you only perceive one. That could mean that the "meaning of life" could turn out to be a matter of always keeping on track with the version of you, that makes the right choices. Then it all becomes rather close to what we experience with our consciousness and our feeling of being able to choose. Highly speculative I know, but whereas causal determinism closed the door on free will, MWI opens it slightly, even if it's yet only a hypothesis. Anything concerning free will is also just a hypothesis at this particular moment of branching.I also like the multiverse theory, but with regards to OP question it can be understood either way.
1) thanks to infinite branching the free will (ability to make choices) is infinite
2) as we are following branch after branch linearly, there's effectively NO free will, because we can't decide based on anything else but our branch and can't experience consequences beyond our own branch. (I.e. "although there effectively was a point of choosing, we now live in a branch where only one choice exists (the one we "chose")" - the collective multiverse me each chose differently, but we now live in a universe where only our one choice was ever real)
I understand the theoretical concept of multiple universes. That there are so many, almost an infinite number, that it is possible that somewhere out there, theoretically there could be another earth and even another me; out there somewhere. However: The Ace Rimmer concept, where each decision I make; the opposite is played out, on an other planet; is just silly, or over the top. Simply because, it would mean that other mes, would be popping into existence, each time I make a choice and then other mes would be popping up, each and evey time, each me, made a choice. What I will accept, was another me, was born somewhere else, in another universe and it lead its life; as it came. Which could have been very different to mine. The numbers could support such a thing happening.If MWI is correct, then any event will cause a split of the Universe, meaning that considering the amount of events, the linear part of the branch, will be "infinitely" small compared to the time it takes the brain to make a choice. The weird thing is that you continue in two separate minds after each split, but right now in this moment, you only perceive one. That could mean that the "meaning of life" could turn out to be a matter of always keeping on track with the version of you, that makes the right choices. Then it all becomes rather close to what we experience with our consciousness and our feeling of being able to choose. Highly speculative I know, but whereas causal determinism closed the door on free will, MWI opens it slightly, even if it's yet only a hypothesis. Anything concerning free will is also just a hypothesis at this particular moment of branching.
@Arry
The Multiverse and the Many Worlds Interpretation are not quite the same, even though there are similarities. They might merge into one theory at some time. Multiverse originates from cosmology, and MWI from quantum mechanics.
One thing that has been on many minds for quite some time, is whether the Universe is infinitely large. It could curve back onto itself. With the latest data, it seems that the Universe is extremely flat, meaning that it probably really is infinite. An interesting consequence of that is, that because the amount of atoms on Earth are put together as they are, if you hypothetically traveled far enough you would find an identical copy of Earth. You'd need a VERY engineered FSD for that though. The point is that even though the Earth has an enormous amount of atoms, which can be combined in a mindblowingly large amount of ways, that amount of ways is still finite. Therefore, if the Universe is flat and infinite, there should be an infinite amount of copies of you and me out there.
The Multiverse and the Many Worlds Interpretation are not quite the same, even though there are similarities. They might merge into one theory at some time. Multiverse originates from cosmology, and MWI from quantum mechanics.
One thing that has been on many minds for quite some time, is whether the Universe is infinitely large. It could curve back onto itself. With the latest data, it seems that the Universe is extremely flat, meaning that it probably really is infinite. An interesting consequence of that is, that because the amount of atoms on Earth are put together as they are, if you hypothetically traveled far enough you would find an identical copy of Earth. You'd need a VERY engineered FSD for that though. The point is that even though the Earth has an enormous amount of atoms, which can be combined in a mindblowingly large amount of ways, that amount of ways is still finite. Therefore, if the Universe is flat and infinite, there should be an infinite amount of copies of you and me out there.
Once again i'm with Arry on this one, MWI and the Multiverse Interpretation is a mere theoretical mathematical equasion rather than a practical one, in my opinion.
Yes I understand that.
Humans have issue with the concept of infinite. Just as they have the same issue, when thinking about an endless nothingness: such as what could be above and below us. The same calculations, make alien life possible and thinking about it, the other me, would be thought of as, an Alien.
That to me, is the same with Black holes. With the maths taken to its extreme; again, they become stupid and I don't care how cleaver those people using infinite numbers, to turn black holes in to possible worm holes etc. etc. My take is simple: Black holes a result of gravity accumulating mass. Enough mass, creates enough gravity, that even light cannot escape. Fair enough, we have a what is now known as a Black hole. However: This process, cannot go on forever. Why? Do to with what is know as a critical mass. Everything has a critical mass, it is how nukes basically work. So sooner or later, that mass at the centre of a black hole, goes nuclear and thus, you get a big bang and another universe is born.
I work on sundays.....
I see we have a similar perception of the world around us
That's the thing, often i feel when it comes to Astrophysics that theory and reality are often not compatible.
I never got how one could think a black hole could be seen as a Wormhole booster like those Sonic the Hedgehog Speedbumps.
It'll rip anything apart down to its molecular and atomic level. No matter can withstand the force untouched, way to much gravity and rotational force.
Unless someone comes up with a new supeglue (kidding)
Which brings me to an interesting question, if you had the free choice whether to go into a black hole or take the long way around, what would you do?
Do you trust Astrophysicists enough that you deem it safe to make the passage?
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