General / Off-Topic So... Do we have free will? :)

You mean, if you have to meet your great love in that other galaxy and you only have the choice to take the full risk or will arrive in 2.5 Billion lightyears as a pile of bone-dust or deep-frozen while you still could study the diaries of your love after your arrival?
Pretty mean example, I know... :devilish:
On a more serious note, I also find wormhole considerations quite audacious to say the least (in reality, not in games of course).

Ha, oh that really is mean! 😏
 
That to me, is the same with Black holes. With the maths taken to its extreme; again, they become stupid and I don't care how cleaver those people using infinite numbers, to turn black holes in to possible worm holes etc. etc. My take is simple: Black holes a result of gravity accumulating mass. Enough mass, creates enough gravity, that even light cannot escape. Fair enough, we have a what is now known as a Black hole. However: This process, cannot go on forever. Why? Do to with what is know as a critical mass. Everything has a critical mass, it is how nukes basically work. So sooner or later, that mass at the centre of a black hole, goes nuclear and thus, you get a big bang and another universe is born.

It can't really go nuclear. There are no nucleus in there, except for new arrivals.
Even in the inner regions of neutron stars, the particles are no longer bound in nuclei.

Black holes seem to go on as long as they are fed new matter. If not, they will slowly radiate away.
What happens to a black hole that radiates long enough to lose it's required mass, is an interesting question. Perhaps it pops back into a star? :D
I don't think the universe is old enough for anything like that to happen.

Black holes are strange to us, because they don't fit our perception of the world. We are used to thinking that stuff has volume. I reality, nothing probably has any.
A hydrogen atom is like an orange and golf ball on a football field. The rest is just space. The proton at the center is made of quarks, with mostly space between them. It wouldn't be a great surprise if we discovered that all matter is made of singularities bound by a forces in a mesh.
That would make black holes rather basic objects.
 
It can't really go nuclear. There are no nucleus in there, except for new arrivals.
Even in the inner regions of neutron stars, the particles are no longer bound in nuclei.

Black holes seem to go on as long as they are fed new matter. If not, they will slowly radiate away.
What happens to a black hole that radiates long enough to lose it's required mass, is an interesting question. Perhaps it pops back into a star? :D
I don't think the universe is old enough for anything like that to happen.

Black holes are strange to us, because they don't fit our perception of the world. We are used to thinking that stuff has volume. I reality, nothing probably has any.
A hydrogen atom is like an orange and golf ball on a football field. The rest is just space. The proton at the center is made of quarks, with mostly space between them. It wouldn't be a great surprise if we discovered that all matter is made of singularities bound by a forces in a mesh.
That would make black holes rather basic objects.
That's an interesting thought.
Technically blck holes ARE basic objects. They are defined by only two quantities - mass and spin. There is of course the third, emergent property - the radius of the event horizon, but that is not a defining physical property per se.
We don't actually know whether they are singularities, though. We only know their radius is smaller than the Schwartschild radius and we only assume they are singularities from the equations that give us infinite mass/radius ratio. But they may as well be "normal objects". Maybe they are the next step from neutron stars in quantum degradation - a sort of "gluon soup" stars. Even though neutron stars are very tightly packed, they are still made of whole particles that have volume. Maybe black hole is simply on another level of packing. Maybe it's just strings themselves packed closely together. :)
 
I see we have a similar perception of the world around us :)

That's the thing, often i feel when it comes to Astrophysics that theory and reality are often not compatible.
I never got how one could think a black hole could be seen as a Wormhole booster like those Sonic the Hedgehog Speedbumps.
It'll rip anything apart down to its molecular and atomic level. No matter can withstand the force untouched, way to much gravity and rotational force.
Unless someone comes up with a new supeglue (kidding)


Which brings me to an interesting question, if you had the free choice whether to go into a black hole or take the long way around, what would you do? ;)
Do you trust Astrophysicists enough that you deem it safe to make the passage?
i would be heading in the opposite direction; if physics, allowed it of course.
 
It can't really go nuclear. There are no nucleus in there, except for new arrivals.
Even in the inner regions of neutron stars, the particles are no longer bound in nuclei.

Black holes seem to go on as long as they are fed new matter. If not, they will slowly radiate away.
What happens to a black hole that radiates long enough to lose it's required mass, is an interesting question. Perhaps it pops back into a star? :D
I don't think the universe is old enough for anything like that to happen.

Black holes are strange to us, because they don't fit our perception of the world. We are used to thinking that stuff has volume. I reality, nothing probably has any.
A hydrogen atom is like an orange and golf ball on a football field. The rest is just space. The proton at the center is made of quarks, with mostly space between them. It wouldn't be a great surprise if we discovered that all matter is made of singularities bound by a forces in a mesh.
That would make black holes rather basic objects.
OK, maybe nuclear, is not the right word; but they still go bang. Critical mass is the key.
 
OK, maybe nuclear, is not the right word; but they still go bang. Critical mass is the key.
Non of the known forces in the universe could do that. We know that 17 billion suns is below that critical mass at least.

Perhaps the critical mass is exactly one universe and it sets of a big bang? :D
 
That's an interesting thought.
Technically blck holes ARE basic objects. They are defined by only two quantities - mass and spin. There is of course the third, emergent property - the radius of the event horizon, but that is not a defining physical property per se.
We don't actually know whether they are singularities, though. We only know their radius is smaller than the Schwartschild radius and we only assume they are singularities from the equations that give us infinite mass/radius ratio. But they may as well be "normal objects". Maybe they are the next step from neutron stars in quantum degradation - a sort of "gluon soup" stars. Even though neutron stars are very tightly packed, they are still made of whole particles that have volume. Maybe black hole is simply on another level of packing. Maybe it's just strings themselves packed closely together. :)
The event horizon is not based on the pulling power of a Black hole its self, (well it is sort of). The Event Horizon must be based on the possible escape velocity of the object approaching it. Therefore, the 'event horizon', is varied.

Example: Earth requires an escape velocity of proximately 43.000kph, so if anything passing within the Earth's gravitational pull, would have to be travelling faster than 43.000kph, to pass by and escape. Anything travelling slower, would be drawn downwards and either burn up, or hit the ground. This maybe a simplified example, but then I am a simpleton myself.

Singularities: Is just another one of those 'infinite theories'; they look good on paper, but the numbers have been taken to impossible extremes.
 

Sir.Tj

The Moderator who shall not be Blamed....
Volunteer Moderator
Hello Everybody.

As you will have noticed the thread has had a considerable number of posts derailing the thread with personal beliefs etc.

I would have cleaned out the posts and the replies but due to the large number of them there would have been a mass of thread inconsistencies and swathes of missing content which would have made others question their sanity.

And blame pointed at yours truly.

However the situation has been addressed and the discussion on free will can continue without further distractions.

I'm not however explaining if this was my own choice via free will....
 
Non of the known forces in the universe could do that. We know that 17 billion suns is below that critical mass at least.

Perhaps the critical mass is exactly one universe and it sets of a big bang? :D
Those 'suns' are not black holes. Black holes eat 'suns/stars, for breakfast and have amasses lots of them over time.
 
Hello Everybody.

As you will have noticed the thread has had a considerable number of posts derailing the thread with personal beliefs etc.

I would have cleaned out the posts and the replies but due to the large number of them there would have been a mass of thread inconsistencies and swathes of missing content which would have made others question their sanity.

And blame pointed at yours truly.

However the situation has been addressed and the discussion on free will can continue without further distractions.

I'm not however explaining if this was my own choice via free will....
Sorry mate. Black holes are a prime example of 'not having any free will' when encountering them.
 
It can't really go nuclear. There are no nucleus in there, except for new arrivals.
Even in the inner regions of neutron stars, the particles are no longer bound in nuclei.

Black holes seem to go on as long as they are fed new matter. If not, they will slowly radiate away.
What happens to a black hole that radiates long enough to lose it's required mass, is an interesting question. Perhaps it pops back into a star? :D
I don't think the universe is old enough for anything like that to happen.

Black holes are strange to us, because they don't fit our perception of the world. We are used to thinking that stuff has volume. I reality, nothing probably has any.
A hydrogen atom is like an orange and golf ball on a football field. The rest is just space. The proton at the center is made of quarks, with mostly space between them. It wouldn't be a great surprise if we discovered that all matter is made of singularities bound by a forces in a mesh.
That would make black holes rather basic objects.

If i compare it to a water vortex, the pull and rotational forces are already extreme,
IF theoretically there was a giant whirlpool you got caught in, not the water but the rotational force would knock you out.

(referring to what you said)
So, if we assume the black hole is similar to a whirlpool(water vortex), spits out the torn mesh matter garbage, what would happen on the other end, i would assume the Black hole's gravity curve is mirrored on both sides, would the force

a) create new particles in the process (cause everything is kinetically charged) similar to the mechanic of the Large Hadron Collider?
b) come out at the other end, basically being turned into antimatter?
or c) won't be able to escape the pull of the black hole alltogether?

Without taking astrophysics into consideration, just from a mere logical standpoint, i would say the trail of matter is pulled through,
gets separated to the smallest possible denominator and once it exits, forms new matter. I don't think it vanishes completely, but leaves behind something similar of what a supernova excretes.

And i also totally second that bit about the black hole dying if it's not fed any matter. If you turn off the water in your shower, that little vortex that's so cool to watch, dies off too.
(far fetched analogies, i know, but that makes it easier to try and visualize the possible effects a black hole might have.)

But not even Stephen Hawking could come to a definitive answer, and he thought about all the angles pretty much every single day.

Sorry if i don't always use the right words or descriptions, i could express that much better in German,
i'm pretty good at English, but when it comes to physics or math,
or certain names that vary from language to language i'm reaching my limits.
So i might sound a little more stupid than i actually am. ;D
 
Those suns aren't stars either. One solar mass is a unit of measurement. The biggest observed black hole is about 17 billion solar masses.
I see: We use the mass of our own Sun, as a base line to work out the mass of other objects in space. We learn new things every day. Thanks.

So how did they work out the mass of something like a black hole? I mean, technically we can't see them, only imagine how big they are etc.. Yes I know that they used multiple telescopes to get that image about a month ago, but that was 'generated'.

Err... Maybe we should start this up in the Astronomy threads.
 
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The event horizon is not based on the pulling power of a Black hole its self, (well it is sort of). The Event Horizon must be based on the possible escape velocity of the object approaching it. Therefore, the 'event horizon', is varied.

Example: Earth requires an escape velocity of proximately 43.000kph, so if anything passing within the Earth's gravitational pull, would have to be travelling faster than 43.000kph, to pass by and escape. Anything travelling slower, would be drawn downwards and either burn up, or hit the ground. This maybe a simplified example, but then I am a simpleton myself.

Singularities: Is just another one of those 'infinite theories'; they look good on paper, but the numbers have been taken to impossible extremes.
Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Even horizon is a radius where escape velocity would equal speed of light. But that just depends on the mass and the fact that this mass itself has smaller radius. That's what Schwartzchild radius is. But we don't KNOW it's a singularity. It might as well be simply an object that has actual radius. It's just smaller than the Schwartzchild radius. :)

edit: But we are again off topic, I'm afraid. :LOL:
It's much more plasant off topic than the last one but still...
 
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If i compare it to a water vortex, the pull and rotational forces are already extreme,
IF theoretically there was a giant whirlpool you got caught in, not the water but the rotational force would knock you out.

(referring to what you said)
So, if we assume the black hole is similar to a whirlpool(water vortex), spits out the torn mesh matter garbage, what would happen on the other end, i would assume the Black hole's gravity curve is mirrored on both sides, would the force

a) create new particles in the process (cause everything is kinetically charged) similar to the mechanic of the Large Hadron Collider?
b) come out at the other end, basically being turned into antimatter?
or c) won't be able to escape the pull of the black hole alltogether?

Without taking astrophysics into consideration, just from a mere logical standpoint, i would say the trail of matter is pulled through,
gets separated to the smallest possible denominator and once it exits, forms new matter. I don't think it vanishes completely, but leaves behind something similar of what a supernova excretes.

And i also totally second that bit about the black hole dying if it's not fed any matter. If you turn off the water in your shower, that little vortex that's so cool to watch, dies off too.
(far fetched analogies, i know, but that makes it easier to try and visualize the possible effects a black hole might have.)

But not even Stephen Hawking could come to a definitive answer, and he thought about all the angles pretty much every single day.

Sorry if i don't always use the right words or descriptions, i could express that much better in German,
i'm pretty good at English, but when it comes to physics or math,
or certain names that vary from language to language i'm reaching my limits.
So i might sound a little more stupid than i actually am. ;D
Don't worry about language. None of us (that I know of) are real physicists or cosmologists. Personally I'm just a huge physics fan and all my knowledge comes from watching a lot of vids and reading popular books. :LOL:
 
Ooooh, i just had one of these wise moments (when you want to pad yourself for thinking you're real smart :))

I'd say, free will is what determines the difference between living organisms and material things.
Hence why it's so hard to incorporate into mathematical equasions.
Math is great for calculating the odds, and explaining (to anyone who gets it, anyways) how the world around us works.
But math often comes to its limits when it's down to explaining why Johnny went for Vanilla ice cream instead of the vegetable salad.
 
Ooooh, i just had one of these wise moments (when you want to pad yourself for thinking you're real smart :))

I'd say, free will is what determines the difference between living organisms and material things.
Hence why it's so hard to incorporate into mathematical equasions.
Math is great for calculating the odds, and explaining (to anyone who gets it, anyways) how the world around us works.
But math often comes to its limits when it's down to explaining why Johnny went for Vanilla ice cream instead of the vegetable salad.
Are you suggesting that free will makes things unpredictable? gasps
:)
In that case it could be an emergent property of entropy.
Because that's what living organisms are good for - shifting entropy back and forth locally.
 
Are you suggesting that free will makes things unpredictable? gasps
:)
In that case it could be an emergent property of entropy.
Because that's what living organisms are good for - shifting entropy back and forth locally.

I'm saying, if there was no free will, you could easily calculate and predict any person's next move.
What you CAN calculate is the consequence of a decision.

Cause if Johnny had gone for the veggie salad, he might not have had such high sugar levels afterwards,
and when his friends later suggested to jump off that cliff, his consequential lack of euphoria might have let a bit more common sense come through.
But he's all cheery and euphoric thanks to all the sugar
And if Johnny had decided to listen a bit more during Physics class, while they were studying the Newon laws, he also might have known
jumping from that height might be quite lethal. His friends, though, are already solving some equasions to find out what his maximum velocity would be.



Sinister (but deep) analogy, i know, but i'm not in the best mood right now, also something i didn't anticipate a few hours ago.
And i wish, when it comes to depression and all that, there was a free choice. To just shake it off.
Sometimes you're a slave to your own emotions. ;)
 
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