So... Does ship technology development come to a screeching halt in the future?

In all seriousness there is a difference between the disposable consumerism vs healthy competition and capitalism. If you take the example of the Jaguar S type vs the first XF replacement- engineering wise- under the skin there is very little difference, but one would most like site the XF as light years ahead and the sales reflect this. And therein lies the key.

In a system where it is encouraged to upgrade your vehicles/vessels there are less likely to fall behind on function. Aircraft and ships, both industrial and commercial are other good examples where a good well optimised design that is upgraded over the years endures very well.
 
If it was good enough for your grandpa, it is good enough for you. :)

US Air force flies B-52's still, that's 60 years on airframe, and private citizens fly P-51 Mustangs, which are 70 years old... If a design is good, I can see it operating for well over a century.

Ok lets talk p51, its one of my favorite planes. :)
Here's a list of revisions of that particular plane:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/P51_Mustang#Variants
The question, would you wanna go up against an f22 in a combat situation no matter how many new computers and radar systems you bolt on to your mustang ;-)
In the real world, it doesn't work that way. The hull of the mustang was built with certain available engines, weapons and general tech of the time. No one has ever designed a fully modular craft that can take any engine or misc tech equipment spanning even 50 years. And here we are, passionately defending the concept of. 560 year old design holding up as a competent combat ship :)
Thats what I love about these forums. So much passion :)
 
Hey, do notice that technological progress didn't always move the way it did in 20th century. It is a reasonable, and actually common choice in hard sf to assume that it will become far more incremental with time. In fact, there wouldn't be much to game if we didn't assume a stall in AI development, for example — otherwise it doesn't really make sense to keep a chunk of meat inside your spaceship unless your purpose is specifically transporting those fragile sentient blobs of protein.

You can see the extreme forms of such restrictions in WH40K and Dune books, but even the Culture series makes it clear that, unless you *really* know where to look, you probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference between starships made in different millennia. And in the real world, the bad news is that CPU and GPU speed improvements are already somewhat less impressive than they were in the nineties. Despite what Elon Musk says, even his - pretty neat - engines are pretty much the same thing, just improved, and the greatest change will be in engines intended for very different applications - be it SABRE or VASIMR, neither of these would replace the venerable RD-107 (though today's RD-107 is not your grandpas RD-107).
 
There's loads of examples of tech that is surprisingly long lived, even in the world of aviation and military equipment.
  • The B52 bomber was designed and built in the 50's and is slated to keep flying until the middle of this century.
  • Britain's (and the world's) first jet bomber the "Canberra" first flew in 1949 and only retired from front line service a few years ago.
  • The "M1911" automatic pistol adopted by the US Army in 1911 but designed and developed before then is still being manufactured and used.
  • Russian rocket engines designed and built in the 60's were still being used (up until a few days ago when one blew up and they retired the fleet)
 
Russian rocket engines designed and built in the 60's were still being used (up until a few days ago when one blew up and they retired the fleet)

That's different - NK-33 were actually built 30 years ago, and as far as I know used exclusively by Orbital Sciences, who kinda specialize in such fun projects. I picked RD-107 and RD-108 because these are designs from 1960s, that, just like Cobra, just get incrementally improved but still manufactured.

EDIT: Also, NK-33 was flown successfully only 4 times, all by OS. So it probably really shouldn't be confused with the Soyuz engines :)
 
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That's different - NK-33 were actually built 30 years ago, and as far as I know used exclusively by Orbital Sciences, who kinda specialize in such fun projects. I picked RD-107 and RD-108 because these are designs from 1960s, that, just like Cobra, just get incrementally improved but still manufactured.

EDIT: Also, NK-33 was flown successfully only 4 times, all by OS. So it probably really shouldn't be confused with the Soyuz engines :)

Sorry, didn't mean to imply the Soyuz engines

I was trying to make the point that we have become accustomed to rapid change in things like cars, computers, phones, fashion etc, but some areas of the built world remain the same for very long periods of time.

A house built today would be familiar to a victorian or even earlier builder, tile covering a timber roof structure balanced on a brick skin. Sure some of the detail and tech has changed (indoor plumbing, insulation, electrics, glass windows) but the form and basic build method is the same.

Many cars have platforms and engine designs going back many years.

I can imagine that, with a solid, proven design of hull, a ship class (say the Cobra) could stay unchanged for a very long time with only internal upgrades (much like the B52 or Canberra or even the Nimrod which was basically a souped up Comet).
 
So what am I talking about here?
Well, the ship description says the Viper mk III is based on a 2762 year design. And this is the mark 3 now. Ok, the year in the game is 3300. That's 568years later, and all they managed was 2 major revisions? And we're not talking about a hauler or heavy lifter that could possibly remain useful even after such a long time. We're talking about the state of the art fighter craft here. :eek:
In the age of human colonization and ongoing wars between factions for centuries would normally spawn incredible advancements in technology. Logically, the Viper concept should be as obsolete as a hot air baloon going up against an F22 Raptor :D
I have not read any of the novels that describe the Elite universe but this paint a picture of astonishingly slow development cycles at the Faulcon deLacy shipyard. :D


Have you ever looked at Porsche's development of the 911, barely a change in years, obviously if you talk to a 911 fan then they explain that you cannot change perfection much. Must be the same with the Viper
 
So what am I talking about here?
Well, the ship description says the Viper mk III is based on a 2762 year design. And this is the mark 3 now. Ok, the year in the game is 3300. That's 568years later, and all they managed was 2 major revisions? And we're not talking about a hauler or heavy lifter that could possibly remain useful even after such a long time. We're talking about the state of the art fighter craft here. :eek:
In the age of human colonization and ongoing wars between factions for centuries would normally spawn incredible advancements in technology. Logically, the Viper concept should be as obsolete as a hot air baloon going up against an F22 Raptor :D
I have not read any of the novels that describe the Elite universe but this paint a picture of astonishingly slow development cycles at the Faulcon deLacy shipyard. :D

It's a mistake to think of technological advancement as being a straight line. For example, Europe in 50AD was more technologically advanced than it was in 850AD. It took us almost 1500 years to reinvent concrete. Major land wars were fought in 1650AD with much of the same technology as was used in 1650BC, but by 1750AD there wasn't a sharp stick in sight. Technological advancement, historically speaking, isn't a constant. Rather it's a function of the conditions at the time. War, for example is often cited as the prime mover in advancement, but some of the greatest leaps forward have come from artistic and commercial interests (the Rennaissance) and philosophic advancements (The Enlightenment), which spurred scientific and technological advancement. And then we've got China, arguably the most peaceful region on Earth over the past 2000 years, and also the most advanced for much of that time. In European history, centuries of war actually held back development in just about every sphere of life for the best part of a thousand years. Even military technology only advanced due to scientific discoveries being brought from other, more peaceful continents via trade.

It's also a mistake to take the example of the last 70 years or so as typical of how the future will run. Sure, we've had huge technological advancements in that time, much of which has been driven by competition, but the thing with competition is that eventually it's won. That's the situation in the Elite universe. Technology and industry have accreted around a handful of vastly huge corporations whose individual power dwarfs those of system governments, and which the factions are dependent upon for their continued existence. Rather than being a hotbed of competition and innovation, Elite's corporate scene is more like a collection of noble houses whose rivalries no longer force innovation, but are conducted through political means. They are more like a monopolist cartel than an engine of advancement. They are at the end of the free market process, where nobody can threaten them except each other and the stakes are too high for them to do that.

One of the other things in the Elite universe's history is the AI war. I've only ready a bit about it (so I might not have it quite right) but for a long time technology was heading one direction (ubiquitous computer automation and sentience), and then it all blew up in mankind's face. After the AI wars, technology took a different direction with far less computer control. It's one of the in-game justifications for how we do everything ourselves instead of pressing a button and becoming a passenger. In future-history terms, it's sort of like the change that happened when the Roman Empire collapsed and the Dark Ages set in. Although not quite as dramatic as that. Obviously.
 
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Actually, the tech staying same isn't that surprising, but there is one thing: a company staying in business for > 80 years is extremely uncommon. The currently oldest big company is, AFAIK, a Swedish mining company of 120 years or so. There are a few > 1000 years old, but those are all hotels (there was one Japanese construction company, but it got bought out a few years ago).

But if (there's a thread about it elsewhere!) we go with dunking FTL communication (so that information spreads with ships passing by), one could imagine humanity's development becoming far more ponderous than it is now.
 
There's loads of examples of tech that is surprisingly long lived, even in the world of aviation and military equipment.
  • The B52 bomber was designed and built in the 50's and is slated to keep flying until the middle of this century.
  • Britain's (and the world's) first jet bomber the "Canberra" first flew in 1949 and only retired from front line service a few years ago.
  • The "M1911" automatic pistol adopted by the US Army in 1911 but designed and developed before then is still being manufactured and used.
  • Russian rocket engines designed and built in the 60's were still being used (up until a few days ago when one blew up and they retired the fleet)

First of, I can see how my arguments have no effect and likewise, all of yours have none on me. :) Anyhoo, it's interesting to see the passionate examples. I appreciate the community effort - as always.
About techology in general: It never evolves in a linear fashion. Its more like a stair-case thing. The tech breakthroughs come sporadically, but when they do the whole field advances. For example, once the transistor was invented, the computers never went back to using Vacuum tubes, since that, we've had a slightly more linear development of computers using CPUs, then the next step might be the qauntum computer.. and so on..
Also, I get that a pistol from 1911 can still kill a human today.. but so can a spear or bow and arrow, but for various reasons, the bow and arrow were abandoned for that pistol. Particulalrt during war-time it's an arms race. You produce a pistol, I produce a rifle, then you produce body armor and an assault rifle, then you create airplanes and I create radars & missile systems to shoot them down. The you create stealth airplanes, and I create arrays of passive radar or EMP weapons or whatever.. The point is, that once you use techology for fighting, it becomes an arms race and those who dont develop fast enough, die.

With that in mind, lets take a look at the examples you mention.
*B52 ( + the "Canberra"). Ah yes, the good old B52. Still capable of flying and dropping bombs. But would the US ever use it against any kind of modern air-defence system? Its fine to use it when theres no one to strike back. If the US was at war with say Russia, I'm pretty sure they'd be using the B2s or something newer. So yes it flies. No one questions that. But the original post was about the Viper which is the figher craft of choice. A craft that you can die in within seconds if you run into the wrong opposition.
*The 1911 pistol. yes see above for my "bow and arrows" example. its not so much wether the tech itself is still functioning. Its about what the opposition youre fighting has. Would you use the 1911 pistol against an army of mech-warrior robots 100 years from now?
*Old Russian rockets. Yes, in this field, the basic designs have not changed much. But again, we are talking about lifting here. Not a combat vessel. No one is trying to shoot down the lifter rockets on their way to ISS, yet they still have a certain failure rate. Also, once we abandon chemical fuel as our primary propellant, I can promise you that these old rockets wount be retro-fitted with pulsed fusion drives or something, simply because they were never designed for it. It will never be practical to alter a completely different design for a new solution.
Also, we are talking about humanity in the year 3300 where they've colonized 1000s of planets and have enormous amounts of resources at their disposal, so manufacturing would likely use the optimal materials for the job.

Ok, there.. this is my last post in this thread :)
 
IRL: In old communist states it was quite common to only sell... say.. one model of a car and have zero R&D and sell it practically unchanged for 20 years. But everywhere else in the world, the car models are renewed and improved each year.

well looking at my cars and specially looking at the product life cycles that cars go through in the last few years i would say by 3300 they have simply wised up.

or are going to tell me that the current model inflation and revision state at Audi, BWM, MB et al is healty, sustainable or brings some real benefits to drivers?

so all is good with vipers and their dev cycle ^^
 
I have a ship that was built in the 1950s to haul cargo. Its hull is the exact same shape as others built from wood in the same area in the 1700s. The design is believed to have descended from the Viking longship.
 
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