So FDev have no backbone....figures

[Morbad]

So in a way, i also dare to say: yes, the game in a way is doomed. But not due to FD.

Frontier is ultimately responsible for any and all changes made, all rules, and all mechanisms implemented. They're no strangers to making and sticking to unpopular decisions either.

Going a little OT but the game needs those sorts of NPCs, although at varying levels of proficiency. That way we'll all develop skills and knowledge. Could really do with a ladder between PVE and PVP.

Oh, I'm all for a spectrum of NPC ability. I simply feel the upper end of that spectrum should give even the most skilled CMDRs a run for their money.

 

[Helvellyn]

Oh, I'm all for a spectrum of NPC ability. I simply feel the upper end of that spectrum should give even the most skilled CMDRs a run for their money.

Amen to that too. A challenge for them and something to fear for the rest of us.

 

[Old Duck]

Oh, I'm all for a spectrum of NPC ability. I simply feel the upper end of that spectrum should give even the most skilled CMDRs a run for their money.

Which sometimes means "running with their money". The new apparent (though confirmed) changes to AI that cause traders and passenger ships to run instead of fighting a hopeless fight is just the "run for my money" I've been hoping for. I love the new "drop mines in your face while I show you my six" tactic

BTW, I use a similar tactic to "beat" PvP gankers, because I'm smart enough not to try to actually fight them in an my inferior ship. As I've said elsewhere, I'm a Forrest Gump PvPer, and I've gotten pretty good at it and actually enjoy playing "catch me if you can!" It's nice to hear that NPCs doing the same (and some players are actually complaining about the "challenge" of catching them, LOL).

 

[Ian Skippy]

With fans like these.....who needs enemies?

Seriously, I'm not joking. FD can't win no matter what they do.

Whiners: Wah, FD never listens to us (tears). Why don't they listen to the community more? At least those other guys who make that Star Ranger Citizen Wing Battalion Commander game listen to their community.

FD: Ok we listened to community and decided to reverse the changes based on the feedback received

Whiners: LOOK! FDev has no backbone.

You can't have it both ways. I would rather have them listening and receptive to the community and being accused of not having a backbone than the alternative.

Unfortunately, many gamers can't think beyond the "Anyone who doesnt agree with me is a coward, lazy and stupid!" level of 'reasoning'.

 

[Burke]

Hmm, yea. There is one truth to the whole happening here. When PvE players dislike something, the PvP crowd comes in, tells them not to cry but to adapt. Then something changes and the PvP crowd comes in, refuses to adapt and rather cries rivers of tears.

A bit ironic, but i guess anything else would contradict the self-declared superiority of PvP players.

Which is basicly what happened with the FSS. Right from the start i said the FSS came about from listening to PvPers feedback rather than explorers. Dev team obviously has its own chosen few that get to dictate the direction of the game. What was done with the FSS, particularly the removing of players modules who were in deep space was a spiteful troll move against explorers and with latest developments combined with months of just ignoring the issue i cant help feeling that the old crowd explorers just arnt really welcome in the game any more.

 

[Sylow]

Oh, I'm all for a spectrum of NPC ability. I simply feel the upper end of that spectrum should give even the most skilled CMDRs a run for their money.

I can agree to that. Although i feel that FD painted themselves into a corner here. There's no way they can make really challenging NPC content, aimed for veteran players in fully engineered ships, while not creating a fearsome behemoth of unbeatable NPCs for newer players. That's why any really challenging content needs to be hidden behind several levels of opt-in by now. It's the only way to adoid driving away the few new players which manage to survive the steep lerning curve.

Which is basicly what happened with the FSS.[...]

Ah, yes. A good example. I intentionally left out the FSS in my posting above. (Not the one you quoted, but the one about people commenting about things without ever trying them. )

So: did you by now already try the FSS, or do you continue your campaign against it based on third party information?

 

[Hossi]

Sorry, but I have to disagree on your evaluation on what happend.
FD didn't try to "shake up to the stagnant PvP meta". If they wanted to fix perma-boosting they could have just reduced engine-pd-recharge, down to the level where it was before engineers appeared. Would have avoided making a single weapon with one special experimental mandatory for everyone, thus ruining pretty much the whole outfitting part of the game.
They simply though that drag was a bit underpowered and gave it a 'small' buff, and they didn't realize what this change would imply for both 'real' PvP and ordinary ganking.
They didn't decide to revert the change due to the outcry, they have ignored much, much worse before. The decided to revert the new drag effect beacause someone pointed out to them that it was a horrible idea.

 

[Old Duck]

I can agree to that. Although i feel that FD painted themselves into a corner here. There's no way they can make really challenging NPC content, aimed for veteran players in fully engineered ships, while not creating a fearsome behemoth of unbeatable NPCs for newer players.

Why not? Put the fearsome behemoth NPCs in Anarchy systems only - problem solved!

Or some similar tactic (CZs, Elite PA missions, etc).

 

[Sylow]

Why not? Put the fearsome behemoth NPCs in Anarchy systems only - problem solved!

I'm not saying we should not have something like that. Only that FD has to be much more careful about is implementation than many people think it is. Merely "any anarchy system" is much too broad in my eyes, for example. Some additional (and unfortunately sometimes very game-style and unrealistic) protection mechanics would probably be necessary to have such content without murdering the newer part of the playerbase.

Cracking down on engineers and strongly nerfing their effects would of course eliminate a lot of the problem. But while i would very much welcome that, i don't believe that this might ever happen.

 

[VR jefranklin18]

Frontier should never had created a PvP game in the first place

 

[Burke]

Ah, yes. A good example. I intentionally left out the FSS in my posting above. (Not the one you quoted, but the one about people commenting about things without ever trying them. )

So: did you by now already try the FSS, or do you continue your campaign against it based on third party information?

My game hasnt been up to date for long time now and with drive space running low im starting to look at ED as a possible delete to free up space. I havnt heard the new asp engine sounds either, only read the complaints from others, change for the sake of change perhaps? But whos it most likely to affect? They troll explorers. How many other things could have been fixed rather than messing with engine sounds? I wont bother to list them. Ever sinse the dev team was chaged the game has lurched from one low point to the next.

 

[teh_pwnisher]

The adaptation required would involve everyone using drag munitions. In what reality is making any such effect mandatory going to be beneficial?

Oh come on now, that doesn't seem like a valid argument. Everyone in PVP uses the same weapons and modules anyway.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

…The only difference in balance and variety between PvP and PvE focused setups is due to the fact that NPCs suck which means virtually anything and everything works against them. …

And the reason (in my opinion) why NPCs are the way they are is because the game (in my opinion) is based on PvE MMO game concepts as gear progression and "character level" threat.
Giving NPCs the same ships as high end PvP players in the current state of the game is the perfect recipe for disaster (in my opinion).

Oh, I'm all for a spectrum of NPC ability. I simply feel the upper end of that spectrum should give even the most skilled CMDRs a run for their money.

While I agree that there should be NPCs that are a threat to even the most skilled players, but implementing such NPCs would require almost a complete redesign and re-balance of the entire game.
Starting with ship balance (size, speed, defense, offense) and engineering (boost, special effects). All the way down to a redesign of the NPC spawn system would be required (not connecting NPC rank to player rank for random NPC encounters).

And finally there is the problem of player skill distribution and what makes a game fun for players. Finding the balance between challenge and frustration - a balance that is different for every player.

While such changes could result in a much more engaging and fun game for everybody, I don't think FDev can do it in this late stage of the game.
If FDev is willing to make the required (in my opinion) changes, then I assume the change would take years.

 

[The Replicated Man]

You're an FA Off all the time guy: how on Earth could you of all people consider the drag changes a good idea?

It could have brought balance to the FDL meta. I personally didn't like the change, and how FDEV was so quiet about it till the last minute.

I guess we will have to wait and see if they decide to re implement the change or just ask the community first before adding something that just changes the meta.

Most people were bringing up the issue of it making ganking easier, but what many didn't mention is that this would cripple the FDL meta. Due to the FDL's longer boost cycle. Most CMDRs who fly her tend to do so in permaboost. No permaboost and the FDL goes from a Corvette to a Chevette.

 

[Morbad]

Oh come on now, that doesn't seem like a valid argument. Everyone in PVP uses the same weapons and modules anyway.

This problem isn't going to be solved by further limiting the number of viable options.

What's omnipresent now should be nerfed to varying degrees, rather than taking something that's already viable and making it so good that it's mandatory.

 

[Old Duck]

They troll explorers.

If you really want the ADS back (as a separate, optional module that doesn't change that FSS that more people like than you admit), try being nice. I know I'm the last one to lecture anybody about "being nice", but what do you have to lose? All I can say is sometimes real people at Frontier read what we post and even act on those posts, eventually. You know, honey vs. vinegar.

 

[Burke]

If you really want the ADS back (as a separate, optional module that doesn't change that FSS that more people like than you admit), try being nice. I know I'm the last one to lecture anybody about "being nice", but what do you have to lose? All I can say is sometimes real people at Frontier read what we post and even act on those posts, eventually. You know, honey vs. vinegar.

It doenst matter either way the FSS issue is clearly being ignored. Its silly to suggest one person with a harsh attitude is the reason that everybody else got ignored isnt it? I mean way to empower a troll if that was true.

Edit: apart from which duck i did ask very nicely and politely in a few different places and even got a reply from facebook. The message got thru they just dont care.

 

[Sylow]

What's omnipresent now should be nerfed to varying degrees, rather than taking something that's already viable and making it so good that it's mandatory.

That's the theory. When did FD for the last time manage to actually get some nerfs into the game, without the community wailing so loudly that it was heard outside of the forum and FD rolling them back later?

Yes, there's been reports about some of FDs attempts to nerf the game, not only on gaming related sites but even on general IT news sites. And while some people might say that any news is good news for a game, FD seems to think differently and tries to avoid such negative press.

I could make a long list of nerfs which would indeed improve the game a lot, both for old players and new ones. I don't think that any of them will even happen. Power-creep seems to be the only tool FD could use to go forward. I also dislike all the power-creep we have. But if the community blocks any alternative, then this is the way we have to go.

 

[Morbad]

When did FD for the last time manage to actually get some nerfs into the game, without the community wailing so loudly that it was heard outside of the community and FD rolling them back later?

They partially nerfed torpedo velocity! They also nerfed a bugged boost cost around the same time. Rolling back this drag munition change is another example.

But yes, these are more exceptions than the rule.

Power-creep seems to be the only tool FD is willing to use.

Yes, and that's my key complaint surrounding game balance. Nearly every time they screw up by making something too powerful or too easy, instead of rolling it back, they double down and push the same mistakes on to all sorts of other things.

 

[Old Duck]

Edit: apart from which duck i did ask very nicely and politely in a few different places and even got a reply from facebook. The message got thru they just dont care.

Maybe it's time then to copy-n-paste my signature and edit it accordingly