So, Frontier, are you going to keep up with the alien/human equipment separation?

I'm asking this because guardian tech is damn interesting and looks really fancy, but totally fails in any way against human ships. Let's take the gauss cannon for example: Judging by the lore about thargoid hull and how meta-alloys work, it's supposed to deal therman damage to it, because meta-alloys become useless and fragile once they have reached their melting point, which seems to be incredibly high.

(I am referring to this, quote from meta alloy description: "They are incredibly strong - much stronger than foamed aluminium for example. Many elements form the structure so technically they are alloys, but the composition is different in different parts of the cell walls for strength. They are good thermal insulators, and have a high melting point, but if they are melted they lose all their special properties and become a conventional alloy.")

So, apparently our weapons do not create enough heat or kinetic force on impact to damage thargoids. That's fine with me until here. But why are guardian weapons completely inferior against human ships, then? I thought high temperatures is thermal damage? If they are able to crack the hardest and best material in the known universe, why don't they destroy our primitive alloys and shields? Why do we need super-fancy guardian technology elements if literally all we had to do was amp up the energy output of a railgun? And how exactly do AX weapons damage thargoid hull, then, what does this special compound the ammo is coated with do? Why can't we charge a normal railgun slug or Multicannon with it?

What I'd like to know is, why create two completely seperate ways of combat that co-exist in the same world without connecting them to each other? All of the alien technology we have been given until now is outclassed in any way by human technology against human ships, even if it is supposedly more powerful. What's the problem with mixing up the known combat WHILE opening up the way for anti-alien combat.

And NO! I am against guardian weaponry and equipment being stronger than human technology, it should simply be an alternative to existing weapons, but a viable alternative. Right now, Thargoid combat is a game in the game, a side activity that is disconnected in every way from what has been built in the last years! The shield and FSD boosters were a great step in the right direction, but also the only one. I'd really like to have an answer from FDev concerning this, because right now, I feel like a ton of potential has been lost, there would be so much fun to be had if we could integrate the new technologies more into the main gameplay.

Things that could widen the use Guardian equipment:

- Simply better stats against human ships, maybe get rid of the damage penalty?

- An own engineer for guardian equipment, possibly something that only increases effectivity against human ships plus some utility for thargoid battles (e.g. plasma slug shard cannons)

- Gimballed variants of Guardian gear (excluding PAs and Gauss of course, just the ones that would have a gimballed human equivalent, I still dream of plasma repeaters some day)

- New weapons! Something completely new not based on any existing human weapons! Electricity-based weaponry? High-energy lasers that fire a short discharge with a charge-up and cooldown! Plasma cloud projectors? Rockets that drill into an enemies hull? Micro-supercruise torpedoes? Guardian anti-thargon micro-gauss point defense?

Do you think sooner or later everything will come together, or will thargoid fighters and mercenaries forever live in parallel universes?:D

 
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I have not tried the Guardian weapons in PVP. However, I did use them in PVE and I would not say they are "useless". Probably there are better human options, specially after engineering the weapons, but that's vastly different from "useless guardian weapons".
 
I have not tried the Guardian weapons in PVP. However, I did use them in PVE and I would not say they are "useless". Probably there are better human options, specially after engineering the weapons, but that's vastly different from "useless guardian weapons".
You can also tear down a wall by throwing potatoes at it, or feathers if you have enough, but guardian weapons are all weaker than their human counterparts, even G1 engineered ones. If you had the choice when taking on a human vessel, would you rather have guardian or human equipment? They are not completely useless, no, with soem effort you can kill a human ship, I'll correct that, but they are inferior to human weapons, and vastly inferior to engineered human weapons considering their energy need, heat and drain in relation to damage.

Also, my perspective is party from a lore perspective, see OP.
 
If you were the powers that be in humanity, and needed to provide weapons which were effective against an Alien threat, would you not also try to ensure that they couldn't be turned against you?
 
If you were the powers that be in humanity, and needed to provide weapons which were effective against an Alien threat, would you not also try to ensure that they couldn't be turned against you?
Interesting question, but who would exactly turn those weapons against me? Humans are massacring each other for ages, we have almost weekly Combat CGs, terrorists and high value target pirates (mission targets) already are outfitted with heavily engineered military class ships (cutters and vettes), so the engineers seem to simply upgrade anyone who pays the mats. Thargoids themselves have weapons that still are vastly superior to our adapted guardian tech. Right now the only concern about alien-tech we adapted is that the AI might come back and make it useless with a signal or turn it into bombs, but then we shouldn't use guardian-tech at all.
 
From a lore side oh things here is my take (as yes it is a game within a game but I can try to explain it.... wish me luck)

Humanity is actually better at Ship to ship combat than the Guardians were, hence why Human weapons are better against human ships.

Guardian Weapons were a development on their ship propulsion technology, but these were not they main area of weaponry which was Biological (and gene manipulation) and nukes


Technology 12: This data you have collected contains details of weaponry the Guardians developed. The guardians’ projectile weapons utilized electro-magnetic propulsion, much like their space technology. Such weapons were manufactured in a range of scaled, from personal weapons to capital-ship class. Generally the Guardians used kinetic energy in combat, and explosives were rarely deployed. Nuclear fission and fusion were developed during the Guardians astro-expansion period, but when it came to large-scale destructive weaponry they relied on bespoke biological weapons. Predictably, these were of little use against the AIs.

18/28 : Technology Log – Energy Weapons These records describe ancient guardian weaponry. It seems the guardians employed three different designs: an energy-based weapon similar to a rail gun, a projectile weapon that fired concentrated plasma, and a weapon that fired charged crystal shards at extreme velocities. These weapons were apparently powered by the crystals we have termed “Guardian Relics”, and the log describes how the relic generates and distributes energy within the weapon. This is a significant discovery, as it means it might be possible to recreate these weapons, or at least to design our own versions of them. It’s extremely exciting.


When we consider this comment

Technology 15: This data makes up a group of entries regarding the Guardians military. From a military perspective the Guardians had an obvious weakness. Most of their history was peaceful, meaning there was no institutional knowledge or experience of combat. Consequently, tactics and strategy were for the most part theoretical. This, combined with various other factors, resulted in a devastating number of casualties during the second civil war.

So we have a set of weapons productid by a Species that generally relied on Biological weapons, nukes and AI to do its fighting for it where as humanity, we have been fighting each other forever and have surpassed the Guardians in small ship weaponry


Technology 10: This data is only partially intact but I have been able to decode the following information.
For a species that experienced only brief periods of war, the Guardians developed very sophisticated means of waging it, although their arsenal was nowhere near as varied as ours. In terms of flight and small-class spaceships, humanity has surpassed the Guardians, but in other respects their technology outmatched ours.



If we look at the Guardian tech, it is all high power usage, high heat low effectiveness next to the Human analogue

The Guardian shard Cannon Size 2 Fixed vs the Human Fragment Cannon Size 2 Fixed
Uses over half as much energy again, with a poorer damage shorter range, much worse damage per energy and double the sustained energy per second

Same issues with the Guardian Gauss cannon and Human Rail Guns

The guardian Plasma Charger and Human Plasma Accelerator a hard comparison due to the different fire mode, but follows the same there


A lot of extra power and waste heat for less results from guardian small ship weapons vs humans ones

Guardian hull and Module reinforcement even needs power


So why are Guardian Weapons better against Thargoids?


Well first I would argue Thargoid ships are not make of solely Meta-Alloys but primary the Thargoid Resin and Bio matter

A bio-mechanical canister containing Thargoid resin. This substance, known as Resin, seems to be a key element in Thargoid constructions. It appears the resin can be used in various states, both to offer protection and additional strength to structures when dry, or as a lubricant in the internal systems of Thargoid bio-technology when in liquid form. When converted to a gas it is highly corrosive.

A bio-mechanical canister containing biological matter of Thargoid origin. It is unclear what the purpose of the matter contained within is, but it appears that the Thargoids have the ability to break down and reuse biological matter. It has been speculated that they also use this material in the construction on their structures, technology and ships

A sample of bio-mechanical tissue taken from a Thargoid Scout-class vessel. Tissue samples appear to be much sought after for research purposes, despite the fact that they appear to be highly corrosive.

A sample of bio-mechanical tissue taken from a Thargoid Interceptor-class vessel. This sample has been taken from a variant known as a Cyclops and contains both biological and mechanical elements. Tissue samples appear to be highly sought after for research purposes despite the fact that they appear to be highly corrosive.

So I would posit the high heat that renders Meta-Alloys inert isn't the be all and end all of damaging the Thargoids.

I would put forth that the Thargoids we currently encounter, being bio-mechanical, were developed/grown/adapted since the last conflict with Humanity some 250? years ago, and are suited to resist human weaponry.


Where as whilst the Thargoids know of and fought the Guardians that was so long ago, any defences developed against them are not in active use, if we go again from the bio-mechanical nature of the Thargoid ships they are probably specialised and thus cannot retain all adaption at all times.

After all they adapted to the AX Missiles which seem to be tipped with Guardian Crystals which would be nanobot technology


17/28 : Technology Log – Relics This data relates to the objects we have termed “Guardian relics”. These blue crystals are part power source, part computer, part key — and apparently played a central role in Guardian technology. Remarkably, it seems the crystals were grown rather than mined. The log is light on details, but from what I’ve been able to piece together, each crystal was designed to fulfil a specific purpose within the Guardian’s technological network. And, like the panels found at many Guardian sites, the relics incorporate nanobot technology.


But given they lack of complete adaption it might be the case of a either or issue, so if they adapted to the Guardian based weaponry completely they would lose their resistance to the Human weapons, which opens them up to a far greater number of hostiles who can hurt them


Similar I guess to this, where you cant have the best of both worlds

[video=youtube;YI3tsmFsrOg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YI3tsmFsrOg&t=1s[/video]
 
Really nice theory based on the phages, but we're talking about pure, crude physical factors here. As you said correctly, thargoid interceptors might have been adapted to human weaponry, but what is it that makes guardian weaponry damage them, then? Because they are, as our weapons, just firing projectiles that deal high heat damage or maybe a mix of kinetic and heat damage. So either, it must be the material the ammo is made from or the higher force that any shot fire impacts with. Then, I think human hybrid-weapons do not only use guardian tech, they are not 100% reconstructions of guardian weapons, but approximate interpretations of how they might look, that's why they might be so energy inefficient, because we cannot yet harness the crystalline material eficiently. And then also, if guardian tech in small ships was less developed than ours, why don't we simply fire a guardian railgun slug from a human railgun or load our frag cannons with shard shells that are propulsed by the kinetic force of an explosion? I mean, they went through the whole R&D for what exactly, to create a weapon inferior to ours in every way but magically dissolving thargoids.

We know that the key of guardian tech are the crystals, which are like the meta-alloys some sort of grown material. I wonder, maybe the thargoids took inspiration from the guardian tech after getting a beating from them? Reverse-engineered it and tried to implement it into their organic ships? I still believe that from a lore perspective, if guardian tech can damage thargoids, it HAS to be better in some way than human tech. Otherwise I don't understand why human weapons deal exactly zero damage to them. I mean they are completely immune to kinetic AND thermal damage, even if both is fired at the same time, but if it's heat or impact from a guardian weapon then it shreds them.

Then, coming back to 'reality', there's the gameplay reason of course, which for the developers might have more importance than lore. They had to create a new arbitrary way for all players to start from common ground, but making all new weapons only for one purpose and locking a whole way to play the game from the rest kinda kills it. We're meant to fight the biggest menace the galaxy has seen yet, but it's so disconnected from everything that has been created until now. And now it has to stay that way. The reason thargoids are never going to simply jump into a HAZRES or confilct zone is that they are invincible to our weaponry (excluding scouts, which are like trashmobs, but less interesting to fight than humans), this division keeps FDEV from making thargoids a real part of the game. It even doesn't benefit thargoid hunters, as those that are playing in open or bigger non-pve private groups are free kills for anyone, or might have problems when running into hostile NPCs because Guardian and AX gear performs sub-par.

Making guardian weapons more viable outside of thargoid-fighting can only benefit the game in my opinion and would open the way to thargoids becoming more of a part of normal gameplay.
 
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