So you want to play in Open, eh?

[NeilF]

It is my firm belief this IS as core to the design of the game as the issues discussed in the Pit of Despair and there will be no wholesale changes that would compromise the ability to play immorally against others in the game.

Personally, I just think it's down to mechanics not being put in there (yet), or worse still ill-considered mechanics...


Look at piracy at the moment... Does that look like a considered and well planned occupation? Or just something that hasn't been addressed (fully) yet?

And if we look at some of the events from last week, with CMDRs being murdered meters from a station, day after day, by the same individuals, and the game not lifting a finger... Does that seem like a consired and well planned mechanic? Or just something that hasn't been addressed (fully) yet.


That said, I suspect I'm in agreement with you, that there will be no "changes." Why waste time with lots of effort to put more sand in the sandbox, when you can simply keep expanding it with shiney new extentions... Which will get more attention? Which can you sell?

And as regards crime and punishment. If FD are happy for us to play immorally against others, and murder is as fine as it seems at the moment, why not just go out for the lolz and fry every new player you can find in OPEN? Indeed Wing up and make a party out of going out on hunting trips to find them... If FD's fine with that, why shouldn't we be?


And come future "Huttons", if things haven't moved on, I suspect the numbers of folks trying to do something "more interesting" will only increase. And if the only "tools" to achieve anything with are deemed anti-social, or an exploit, I suspect many will still consider using them if FD still haven't offered any alternatives and/or addressed (or actually enhanced) some of these mechanics. I suspect I'm not the only one who recalls talk of bold mechanics and emergent gameplay back from (pre) Alpha... I suspect I'm not the only one still patiently waiting for any significant signs of it


ps: I know this all seem a little knee-jerky and extreme, but the fact there's not been a single "official peep" about any of the limitations, exploits and problems we witnessed last week bemuses me. Add in a pinch of the design process for Powerplay, and a drop or two of seemingly no desire to actually add to the core games mechanics/content.... I'm feeling more and more strongly I'm on a different page, or a different book...

 

[Dogoncrook]

Personally, I just think it's down to mechanics not being put in there (yet), or worse still ill-considered mechanics...


Look at piracy at the moment... Does that look like a considered and well planned occupation? Or just something that hasn't been addressed (fully) yet?

And if we look at some of the events from last week, with CMDRs being murdered meters from a station, day after day, by the same individuals, and the game not lifting a finger... Does that seem like a consired and well planned mechanic? Or just something that hasn't been addressed (fully) yet.


That said, I suspect I'm in agreement with you, that there will be no "changes." Why waste time with lots of effort to put more sand in the sandbox, when you can simply keep expanding it with shiney new extentions... Which will get more attention? Which can you sell?

And as regards crime and punishment. If FD are happy for us to play immorally against others, and murder is as fine as it seems at the moment, why not just go out for the lolz and fry every new player you can find in OPEN? Indeed Wing up and make a party out of going out on hunting trips to find them... If FD's fine with that, why shouldn't we be?


And come future "Huttons", if things haven't moved on, I suspect the numbers of folks trying to do something "more interesting" will only increase. And if the only "tools" to achieve anything with are deemed anti-social, or an exploit, I suspect many will still consider using them if FD still haven't offered any alternatives and/or addressed some of these mechanics. I suspect I'm not the only one who recalls talk of bold mechanics and emergent gameplay back from (pre) Alpha... I suspect I'm not the only one still patiently waiting for any significant signs of it

Remember when the universe was small and it was a literal gank fest? At first you could boost away with impunity.This was rectified almost immediately. Since that time the people that did not accept this have pleaded and argued incessantly that this shouldn't be the case, and that this type of gameplay wasn't intended or acceptable. The fact is the devs weighed in long ago, but there is a contingent of people who just cannot accept it.

As a beta backer (I followed development since alpha) I'm also disappointed in a lot of aspects of the game, and how this all played out. This isn't advice I expect you to take, and im not sure it is even much help but it worked for me. I stepped away, not out of boredom, but until I was over my expectations of what I thought it should be and I was no longer angry about the promises made and what I feel they failed to deliver. I dropped my animosity towards them for being misleading. I came back fresh and tried to salvalge what I could of the experience by trying to just enjoy what it is, warts and all. For me it worked, and even though in the meantime it took an entirely different direction than I expected or wanted, I enjoy it for what it is. I no longer trust the developers, that hasn't changed, but I am enjoying the game. Sometimes you just gotta roll with the punches.

I don't think the devs encourage this behavior, but I haven't seen a shred of evidence they would do anything to eradicate it or even make it harder. Wings threw everyone a bone to deal with their own problems, and pp, gave everyone some incentive to band together. As many faults as fd has, I blame the community as much if not more for not doing something about dedicated hostile groups. You have the tools to at least try, but nothing has been done. No attempts have been made, to the point that here they are, taunting you to do something, even they a throwing the community a bone and the response as usual is an appeal to authority.

As (temporary) outside observer, the code and the Hutton fiasco, is unquestionably the best thing that has happened to this game, and I say that as an open player, who has never engaged in any PvP that I couldn't avoid, and plays with self imposed iron man rules.

 

[GluttonyFang]

You don't? You only have to look on youtube to see members of your group blowing up helpless traders and running away from combat ships. There isn't a "Yup please shoot me" flag system in Open, and likely never will be. That is why modes exist, so people can choose to play how they want whenever they want.

Your groups (or is it the mosquito guy's group?) is perfectly legitimate gameplay - although some find it distasteful, and some of what has happened has absolutely not been legitimate. I'm happy to see you are making changes to that though.

I am a supporter of PvE and PvP flag system in open, to clarify.

Other than that, thank you for your input.

- - - Updated - - -

Fold

I am a supporter of the PvE/PvP flag system in open in the sense that we allow people to play the way they wish.

Some players really enjoy the aspect of open world PvP, I would not want to limit them into CZs, since I feel that is robbing them of their right to enjoy the game equally as a PvE pilot.

 

[NeilF]

I am a supporter of the PvE/PvP flag system in open in the sense that we allow people to play the way they wish.

Some players really enjoy the aspect of open world PvP, I would not want to limit them into CZs, since I feel that is robbing them of their right to enjoy the game equally as a PvE pilot.

I suppose a flag system - if I understand it's meaning - would then mean people could fight more easily, while the rest of the game's mechanics are free to do what the need to do... eg: Come down really hard on murder?


That said, how would you envisage a flag system working. Ultimately, how will "flagged" people actually find each other? At least going to a dedicated zone would mean it's far more likely to find someone else willing to participate as inherently the people are there for that purpose

Remember when the universe was small and it was a literal gank fest? At first you could boost away with impunity.This was rectified almost immediately. Since that time the people that did not accept this have pleaded and argued incessantly that this shouldn't be the case, and that this type of gameplay wasn't intended or acceptable. The fact is the devs weighed in long ago, but there is a contingent of people who just cannot accept it.

Only way I can see the various facets of this game working is for murder to merit a heavy penalty. For piracy to then rely on stealing cargo, not murder. And then for game mechanics to offer (for those interested) plenty of PvP avenues where it is not "murder".

I can see all this sitting quite well, except I'm having trouble seeing how NPCs will addapt... Most NPCs simply want to kill you, and in my proposed alternative they shouldn't...

Anyhoo..

As a beta backer (I followed development since alpha) I'm also disappointed in a lot of aspects of the game, and how this all played out. This isn't advice I expect you to take, and im not sure it is even much help but it worked for me. I stepped away, not out of boredom, but until I was over my expectations of what I thought it should be and I was no longer angry about the promises made and what I feel they failed to deliver. I dropped my animosity towards them for being misleading. I came back fresh and tried to salvalge what I could of the experience by trying to just enjoy what it is, warts and all. For me it worked, and even though in the meantime it took an entirely different direction than I expected or wanted, I enjoy it for what it is. I no longer trust the developers, that hasn't changed, but I am enjoying the game. Sometimes you just gotta roll with the punches.

A couple of my friends are of similar sentiment, and I know I should follow suit, and "let it go". It's just frustrating to see something that could be so much bigger and deeper, keep veering away from that target.

 

[Dogoncrook]

I suppose a flag system - if I understand it's meaning - would then mean people could fight more easily, while the rest of the game's mechanics are free to do what the need to do... eg: Come down really hard on murder?


That said, how would you envisage a flag system working. Ultimately, how will "flagged" people actually find each other? At least going to a dedicated zone would mean it's far more likely to find someone else willing to participate as inherently the people are there for that purpose




Only way I can see the various facets of this game working is for murder to merit a heavy penalty. For piracy to then rely on stealing cargo, not murder. And then for game mechanics to offer (for those interested) plenty of PvP avenues where it is not "murder".

I can see all this sitting quite well, except I'm having trouble seeing how NPCs will addapt... Most NPCs simply want to kill you, and in my proposed alternative they shouldn't...

Anyhoo..



A couple of my friends are of similar sentiment, and I know I should follow suit, and "let it go". It's just frustrating to see something that could be so much bigger and deeper, keep veering away from that target.

I'm certainly not suggesting you stop voicing your opinions or speaking out about it, but if it does bother you it's kinda the only way to salvalge the situation.

This game was never going to be anything other than an attempt to grab a piece of the semi competative adversarial online market. It set it's sights squarely on world of tanks, eve, world of warcraft, etc, incorporated what worked for it's unique elite universe and business model and ran with it. And honestly it's still a good game, it's not what I was expecting or paid for frankly. But it ain't bad. This is a game I would buy today, and once you realise what you have actually bought, and that the concept isn't perfect but still a cool game, it's far easier to swallow.

That said this concept isn't going to deviate or change, there's a duty to maximise profits, and removing the playstyle of one of the largest markets out there, isn't going to happen. And while more compelling and interesting systems might happen, I expect them to have only minor influences on player behavior. The most meaningful interaction in this game is with a gun, that's no accident.

 

[GluttonyFang]

I suppose a flag system - if I understand it's meaning - would then mean people could fight more easily, while the rest of the game's mechanics are free to do what the need to do... eg: Come down really hard on murder?


That said, how would you envisage a flag system working. Ultimately, how will "flagged" people actually find each other? At least going to a dedicated zone would mean it's far more likely to find someone else willing to participate as inherently the people are there for that purpose

The idea is that we preserve the sense of an open world, this way both PvP and PvE players don't feel like they are getting "special treatment."

 

[Pendra]

Everyone in open has the right to be blown to bits by a wing of gankers. Taking this right away is just wrong. This is the first step on the slippery road to dictatorship.
I say you don't let this happen. Go and blow a CMDR up now in the name of the democracy. The world is counting on you.

 

[Kristov]

Everyone in open has the right to be blown to bits by a wing of gankers. Taking this right away is just wrong. This is the first step on the slippery road to dictatorship.
I say you don't let this happen. Go and blow a CMDR up now in the name of the democracy. The world is counting on you.

Pssst, FD is already a dictator, they make the rules and deal with rule breakers as they see fit, and we aren't privy to how they deal with them. For all any of us know, people got warnings from FD about their actions, maybe some won't be seen in game for a bit, or ever again, we don't know, we won't know, no name and shame extends to punishments meted out by FD as well you know.

And they may well be revamping how system authorities and faction powers work as well, since they've been informed of how to exploit the mechanics currently to keep the system authorities from doing anything. The lack of a Federal Navy response at the HO event is totally baffling to me, Sol's backyard, a Hudson exploited system, a station he wants, multiple pirate crews show up and start killing people, and NOTHING? What the holy hell, GalNet has already run stories about how the FORMER president of the Federation was well known for NOT responding to cries for help from Fed citizens, Hudson is a big proponent of shoot first and last and he's NOT responding to this attack on innocent citizens in Sol's backyard? Hey FD, your BGS is BORKED! They could have done this at Abraham Station over Terra and it would have been the SAME lack of response, and that's totally unacceptable isn't it?

Anarchy systems, I don't expect any response from anyone in authority, there is NO ONE in authority. Deep inside Federation or Imperial space, I expect to see a response, especially in the backyard of the capitol!

 

[goemon]

Deep inside Federation or Imperial space, I expect to see a response, especially in the backyard of the capitol!

hutton orbital is not ruled by a federal faction, it's an independent dictatorship. just sayin' (learned it from another thread). so basically i guess, code was there on behalf of hudson, playing criminals, so he can take over now, state-building and so on.

 

[Kristov]

hutton orbital is not ruled by a federal faction, it's an independent dictatorship. just sayin' (learned it from another thread). so basically i guess, code was there on behalf of hudson, playing criminals, so he can take over now, state-building and so on.

The system is Federal none the less, and it's in Sol's backyard and exploited by Hudson, there's no reason the Federal Navy didn't show up in force and quickly, people trying to make it out otherwise are simply doing a CYA move. Fact remains, the same results would have happened in Sol or any other system, it's an issue that needs to be addressed, otherwise, what's the point of having major powers in the game.

 

[yah-ta-hey]

uh this is their playground... we are guests. To play nice is acceptable... otherwise they can take their marbles home or worseget their big brother to escort you off the playing field and then tell you to go home to mommy.

 

[xXCheeChowXx]

I don't think what the code was doing was right or cool but it's part of the game....If we are going to organize another CG like this lets really organize it and group up. Surly there are people with TS,R/C etc coms servers we could use for the next event....because we (We,meaning those doing the delivering) were short sighted and thought Hutton was going to be a big party where like minded players joined together for the common good, there is nothing that needs to be changed or nerffed etc....If "we" had done it right we would be sharing Screenies of Code blowing up and running from our delivery area. So lets not do it all,willy nilly next time and organize.....I'll even download Raid Call for the next one if you want. where we can discuss the goals and how we will go about accomplishing them.

 

[KellyR]

Anyone and everyone (including pirates, CODE, etc) is welcome to use TS server at starport6.game-host.org. There is a max of 32 users (for now), but it is there for anyone to use. No password required. Free to use anytime of the day or night.

 

[Dogoncrook]

I don't think what the code was doing was right or cool but it's part of the game....If we are going to organize another CG like this lets really organize it and group up. Surly there are people with TS,R/C etc coms servers we could use for the next event....because we (We,meaning those doing the delivering) were short sighted and thought Hutton was going to be a big party where like minded players joined together for the common good, there is nothing that needs to be changed or nerffed etc....If "we" had done it right we would be sharing Screenies of Code blowing up and running from our delivery area. So lets not do it all,willy nilly next time and organize.....I'll even download Raid Call for the next one if you want. where we can discuss the goals and how we will go about accomplishing them.

You could also use their tactics against them and get enough traders in an instance there is no room for them.

 

[Cmdr Eran Mintor]

Out of curiosity, why is CODE pirating in Maausk?

 

[DigitalMandalorian]

Out of curiosity, why is CODE pirating in Maausk?

We're supporting Emperor's Dawn in the Combat CG. We are taking compensation by pirating the trade CG's in Ipilyawa and Ch'i Lin.

 

[GluttonyFang]

I can assure that this is an official statement from the Code.

Please refer to this thread for information: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=182942

 

[Ornee Shaula]

The Smiling Dog Crew would like to thank all who died for the blood salt and tears...

 

[Marcns007]

Long live solo mode to get me around such problems it really a cloaking device

 

[Father Cool]

I feel I have to put my thoughts in on this. I have only recently heard of the Code. I don't get time to indulge ED so much with RL issues at the moment and haven't come across them until Hutton Orbital.

I don't usually indulge in CG's but this one looked to be a very social event and to me the social side of ED is one of its best features, not PvP but the general coming across other players saying hi general chit chat in the big black. It's especially nice if out on the rim of civilized space and a CMDR happens in on you or vice versa. Player interaction doesn't have to be hostile hence me joining the Fuel Rats a while back. The most satisfying thing I've done in game for a very long time. Anyway I digress.

On this occasion, after reading a little on the forums a few days prior, hutton looked to be a big old party in the sky so for the fun of it and to give me a reason to fly to the end of space (something I really had no intention of doing previously) I set forth to Hutton with a hold of scrap and my fuel limpets to set up my ship as a rescue vessel stationed there for the week in case anyone needed a hand. My nice full hold would provide a contribution to the cause and maybe give me a bit of me running costs back for the trip. Sorted. Anyway after an hour and a half my bright white rescue Asp drops out of SC to see a lot of ships darting around, busy pad I thought, so parked my butt up a few clicks out and waited to see if I could acquire a pad. Whilst sat there I started picking up coms from various ships talking about griefers, ramming and such and some mention of people calling themselves the Code out in SC. No one in the station instance stated anything about them being Code though (whatever that was). So I sat and watched, got my popcorn out and put my feet on the ships dash. I saw many things. wanted CMDRs hiding in the station nooks and crannies trying to avoid being shot by system police, open weapons fire between CMDR's flying around, small ships ramming large ships hard. All a bit like 'what the crap is going on here?' Still no coms from anyone who knew, just a few 'here we go again' shouts followed by some more ramming. I even saw a cobra ramming pythons and then flying off doing impossible spins in celebration and flying back to do it again (the cobra was 100% hacked but I've posted a thread on that previously so won't push it further here). Anyway popcorn starting to run dry I think 'this is getting silly now I just want to dock, set up my rescue post and chillax'. No sooner had this happened but I was set upon from behind by a CMDR, no warnings, no anything. By the time I'd realised I was being shot at I had no shields, was mass locked by the station and no-where to go. I quickly pointed myself space bound, hit boost and hoped to god I'd get out of masslock before my hull was destroyed. This didn't happen. My ship was lost. 1.5mil down, no rescue post set up, feeling somewhat griefed at having both money and my very precious RL time wasted I was a bit livid to say the least. I really do not mind PvP one bit, it's great fun but when its senseless meaningless and with no provocation or demands I am not so happy. It's plain murder.

Anyway moving on, I research this Code business to find that it is a band of guys who have taken to forming an organised Pirate group in open. Hmm I think, a gank club? and reading posts about them on here seems to support this theory. However on visiting their website I find that actually the ones at the top are reasonable friendly sorts who appear to have a code of conduct and honour. This I like. It's playing the game right in my books so please consider this as my personal approval for whatever that is worth (of course no-one needs my blessings but it's the best I can offer). However, and this is the big one, Hutton was not honourable and the code of conduct from what I saw was not followed, there were no comms stating the situation what any consequences were and what to do to avoid ship destruction. I do realise that some of the killers may not have been Code but just taking the situation as a chance to grief for their own ends but as it was a Code instigated blockade then I'm afraid that Code will get the flak for anything that happened in that system. I'm not sure it was good call on Codes behalf to blockade Hutton, it was good for publicity sure, but as a platform for promoting Codes motives and conduct (Piracy? For Scrap? I saw no one salvaging any while I was there!). It really was a grief fest and one that, if I were Code, would have wanted to avoid. The OP's post, however true (I do agree with most of it) does come across as arrogant, superior and to be honest belittling to the rest of the ED community, which I find very insulting and unwarranted. Fine to play the character in game, not so cool on the boards. As for the blatant exploits in game being used, not sure that the argument of, you can do it in the game mechanic so its fair game, really holds. It is still bad form. I can pick up the cue ball in pool and put it where I like to take a shot or knock the black in with my hand if I miss and claim victory because the table, ball and cue allows me to do so. Doesn't mean its fair game. The rules dictate whats allowed not the equipment. Like the referee in pool, in ED's case its the voice of the community that makes thing fair and legal not the game mechanics. Anything outside of that is questionable.

I feel that this whole situation is a perfect showcase for why we need in game player groups/factions. The legitimate concerns such as Code the Fuel Rats etc can then have their Group displayed on the scan screen and no-one will be in doubt as to who people are. The ones we know such as the Code and Rats means we can be 100% sure of motives and code of conduct, the ones we don't know though infamy can then be approached with caution until a known code of conduct and motivations are established. Galnet needs more than anything to be on top of this as not every player is on these boards.

Final word: Code - like the idea, like the (published) codes of conduct (whether these are actually adhered to remains to be seen), don't like the arrogance out of game of some, don't like the way Hutton was dealt with (despite it being touted as a well publicized blockade, I never heard about it and I'm sure many others didn't either who were slaughtered like pigs).

Player Piracy and bad guys - Yes definitely. Griefing pretending to be piracy - No so much.