Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
.... and Frontier implemented it for all players, not just those who are PvP-tolerant.
Powerplay Solo/Group and Powerplay
- Thread starter Argos Avalance
- Start date
.... and Frontier implemented it for all players, not just those who are PvP-tolerant.
Ok, PP should exists as PVE functionality but still it need improvements.
I think Frontier could create another kind of gameplay system, only for PVP, to satisfy that kind of costumers and keep PP as it is, only improved a little.
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Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
I wasn't suggesting that Powerplay does not need improvements.
Whether Frontier considers that there is sufficient demand to create another kind of gameplay, only for PvP, is for them to decide. As it stands, there is no content that requires PvP....
I think that our intention are slightly different. You are looking for reasons to create PVP gameplay and you don'y see any. I think Frontier should create some only PVP based gameplay for PVP per se. Just to create, fair, satisfying competitive gameplay. There is nothing bad in gameplay mechanics designed only for PVP like in mechanics designed only for PVP. There is as sentence in Poland: "Jesli cos jest do wszystkiego to jest do niczego" which means: "Jack of all trades, master of none". As you mentioned earlier, because PP was designed as feature for all types of players, it shouldn't be changed, however it will be nice if Frontier could introduce specialised PVP game system.
I agree with this - Players should at least be able to fight back against the people undermining them! That's the whole point of powerplay! The same should be true vice versa.
If you can catch them, you can. The problem is it's a big galaxy and when undermining you're not spending time in the shared supercruise instance.
It's the argument we keep seeing time and time again about fortifiers. "Boo, hoo, you're fortifying in private/solo". No we're not - when fortifying you spend almost no time in supercruise in the system. It takes less than 10 cutter loads to fortify the extreme majority of Mahon's 118 fortifiable control systems. That means that across the 168 hour tick, you have to catch someone in supercruise in that system. We don't hang around in supercruise waiting for other commanders to show up, so they can try to stop us.
You can't find what you can't catch, and with the size of the galaxy and the time spent in super cruise, even if every single PowerPlay participant HAD to be in open, people would be ing and whining about not finding anyone. Easiest way to prove it is to look around the forums and reddit and see how often people complain about not meeting anyone at all.
Also I had good moments of gameplay with powerplay in systems where actually battles where fought and a lot of Empire and Federal commanders did meet in the same instance, patrolling in supercruise, batteling over dominance in the combat-zone with active PvP gameplay involved.
Of course this was only possible becouse the honorable Imperial and Federal pilots communicated theire war-goal over forums and reddit and were willing to meet in open. This was very fun and a good engaging kind of drama was built up - but unfortunatly this playstyle is not the most effective way to "win" in powerplay though it was the most fun way for me and many others. The way things go unfortunatly usually people try to go the most efficient route (I am no exception there) and not the most fun route. That's why I think that powerplay is spoiled. Becouse the most efficient way is to circumvent PvP combat and go into group or solo mode. But I think I am not alone to see this the far more boring and unfun way.
Of course this was only possible becouse the honorable Imperial and Federal pilots communicated theire war-goal over forums and reddit and were willing to meet in open. This was very fun and a good engaging kind of drama was built up - but unfortunatly this playstyle is not the most effective way to "win" in powerplay though it was the most fun way for me and many others. The way things go unfortunatly usually people try to go the most efficient route (I am no exception there) and not the most fun route. That's why I think that powerplay is spoiled. Becouse the most efficient way is to circumvent PvP combat and go into group or solo mode. But I think I am not alone to see this the far more boring and unfun way.
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This is great example of bad design decisions in Elite. If you have to build your own game in game to play in interesting way, it mean something went wrong... That kind of war activities should be supported by game systems.
If players have create artificial rules in game for themselves maybe this will be better to play pen and paper RPG?
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Not every player wants to engage in direct PvP, indeed a recent poll (70% PvE vs. 30% PvP & PvE) seems to back up Mark's statement that Frontier are well aware that the majority of players do not get involved in PvP.
This being the case, it does not surprise me at all that Frontier have not introduced any game features (apart from CQC Arena, of course) that require direct PvP.
It should be noted that PvE players also have to create artificial rules for themselves and play in Private Groups to completely avoid* direct PvP.
*: only possible with carefully vetted members lists, of course - some players have joined the most well known PvE Private Groups to intentionally break the rules.
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TERMINATRIXXX
Banned
I found more players in Open than in Solo [squeeeee] - and i'm currently griefing in Maia, looks like most people don't have a choice.....kinda forced PvP and it works great for me :x
Can't confirm the statement that more people prefer PvE, my lobbies are always full of human targets.
Can't confirm the statement that more people prefer PvE, my lobbies are always full of human targets.
I will say this again, Frontier could add some only PVP game system (something similar to PowerPlay) just for PVP players. This wont affect PVE content and players but will be something great for competitive community. It will be win win situation, for both PVE and PVP palyers.
To a certain extent I agree, but it's not so simple as just disabling it from working in solo/private. Even ignoring the technical issues that arise from networking issues, the differences between the direction in which merits needs to be carried makes a huge difference in the vulnerability of the powers. Some powers have merit choke points, which would make it trivially easy to oppose them, while others do not. Some powers can snipe their expansions while others cannot, which also makes for a huge difference in the viability for the powers.
This, but some of the die hards who are satisfied with counting beans break out in sweats as soon as it is mentioned.
And we don't want to upset some of those who are responsible for suggesting the current shower that is the PP update. Do we?
There was quite a offensive on one of the pp factions more than a year ago regarding open, solo, pg.
https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteLavigny/comments/3tmb47/whats_more_embarrasing_for_winters_i_wonder/
https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteLavigny/comments/3tmb47/whats_more_embarrasing_for_winters_i_wonder/
Its not so much about modes. Even if it was restricted to Open, PvP would still play a very minor part of Powerplay.
Get a fast ship, you might (timezone, players, instancing depending) face people trying to interdict you, but with a fast ship, you can get out of there before they can harm you and be on your way.
The more time they spend defending their systems from blockade runners, the less time they spend doing fortification, preparation, expansion. I predict a group dedicate to PvP in powerplay would lose badly to one doing PvE runs. The more people in the group focused on PvP, the worse they would do.
There is a "solution" to this, and would be to make it a 100% PvP actvity. Make only PvP actions count. But that would go down like a lead baloon.
I did suggest once they do this, but it was met with negativity. In theory, they could add another layer, one similar that would be PvE only.... although there again, we have the BGS for that.
Get a fast ship, you might (timezone, players, instancing depending) face people trying to interdict you, but with a fast ship, you can get out of there before they can harm you and be on your way.
The more time they spend defending their systems from blockade runners, the less time they spend doing fortification, preparation, expansion. I predict a group dedicate to PvP in powerplay would lose badly to one doing PvE runs. The more people in the group focused on PvP, the worse they would do.
There is a "solution" to this, and would be to make it a 100% PvP actvity. Make only PvP actions count. But that would go down like a lead baloon.
I did suggest once they do this, but it was met with negativity. In theory, they could add another layer, one similar that would be PvE only.... although there again, we have the BGS for that.
This would already be some progress. People would have to be more careful about ship-decissions. If a player is going for the fast ship this is totally legit. At least the opposition has a chance to see who is doing things. Maybe the opposition is switching to fast ships to intercept too. This would enable a lot of interesting gameplay.
It would not hurt if powerplay was rebalanced in a way that fortification was not the single most important thing to do for a power to prosper and the single-most boring and straining thing to do at the same time.
If fortifications could be done without investing a great heap of money or time this would help. There could be powerplay missions to help fortificate. There could be something like competitive CGs to accomplish the fortification-undermining game, there could be a lot more fun and engaging things to do, but instead we have this 30minute allocation and buy-in style of game. To call this even PVE is very bloated, to call this gameplay at all is a bit much.
If powerplay was rebalanced in a way that PVE (or buy-in / time investment) was not the most effective way to go and competitve CGs or missions were introduced, then PvP could get a bit more on par with PvE mechanics.
I admit that PvP will never be totally on par with PvE in Elite with current game-mechanics - but the playingfield could be made at least a bit more even at least within powerplay (I am looking at Sandros original proposal to give a bonus to powerplay activities for players in open)
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Except all you would mainly see is people flying Cobra's, Clippers, and Cutters.... pretty boring really. Ok, so you'd see them at least.
Anyway, its all pretty moot, its not like FD are going to restrict it to open anyway.
Sometimes it baffles me how quickly people jump in on discussions on this forum a soon as open/solo is mentioned even though they don't seem to care a great deal about PP in general. Is there some kind of notification for those threads?
Imo it has been determined a long time ago that there is a problem. Sandro didn't pull the grenade without reason back then:
If you want recent examples, right now there is a Grom expansion going on Hudson doesn't like. So we send people to oppose it. Our people met Grom's people (and some Imps supporting them), both sides had losses which results in loss of merits and insurance costs. Both groups could push the expansion progress or opposition completely undeterred at peak efficiency by just winging up in a private group of their chosing instead.
This is not limited to combat activities, if you are a PP hauler you might want to use a max tonnage shieldless build. Take this Alliance Cutter as an example. Now if you know what you are doing this will work against NPCs, but if a competent PVPer engages you you'll be probably ripped to pieces. Such builds may even work in open for a power that doesn't have enemies but I'd certainly not dare to take something like that to Nanomam.
A multiplier for open will probably never be implemented at this point (sadly) and there are other problems like bad instancing and no shared servers with the console versions. I do believe that more people playing PP in open would be a good thing for the mode in general (and if you want to argue with the low player numbers in PP, FDev did their part with making the mode unappealing to many in the first place and driving out many dedicated PPers by lack of innovation, long wait time for bug fixes or even introducing new and partially devastating PP bugs along the way).
That's what Robert does. Anything that might have someone say Open is better is a trigger for em.