Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
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Powerplay Solo/Group and Powerplay
- Thread starter Argos Avalance
- Start date
Confession time: I play in solo for PP, mainly due to spotty internet and an old PC.
But PP in my view conceptually has to be in Open. A while ago I wrote a joke thread about if WW2 played out using PP rules > https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/253666-What-if-WW2-was-fought-using-Powerplay-rules
I'll quote one bit here:
Solo and group modes make denial of space impossible, and thus makes defence a matter of numbers and hauling more. But, as Vectron points out, having inbound fortifying powers in Open creates easy choke points thus PP would need further redesigning- so really both would need to be looked at simultaneously. Maybe with 2.3 instancing will improve, and make a good bedrock for convoy mechanics (i.e. fortifiers escorted by fighters etc).
But even then, the instancing limit would have to be increased to really have what we want: if you have Powers with hundreds playing at once you will always have that cut by the 32 player per instance cap.
But PP in my view conceptually has to be in Open. A while ago I wrote a joke thread about if WW2 played out using PP rules > https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/253666-What-if-WW2-was-fought-using-Powerplay-rules
I'll quote one bit here:
Solo and group modes make denial of space impossible, and thus makes defence a matter of numbers and hauling more. But, as Vectron points out, having inbound fortifying powers in Open creates easy choke points thus PP would need further redesigning- so really both would need to be looked at simultaneously. Maybe with 2.3 instancing will improve, and make a good bedrock for convoy mechanics (i.e. fortifiers escorted by fighters etc).
But even then, the instancing limit would have to be increased to really have what we want: if you have Powers with hundreds playing at once you will always have that cut by the 32 player per instance cap.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Indeed they do - and given what DBOBE has said about disliking forms of territorial control that are facilitated by large player group features, it's not surprising that direct territorial control is not possible in the game.
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But there lies the paradox: Powerplay to a certain degree relies on territorial control- if you take that away, control and defence no longer are PvP but whoever can shift fortification merits the most.
This is why Powerplay flounders so much, in that defence becomes a further mathematical abstraction rather than being 'hands on' (realistically, you could never have 100% of either way though).
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
While Powerplay may rely on territorial control, the fact that Frontier consciously implemented it in all three game modes strongly suggests that the method of controlling territory in Powerplay is not PvP.
TERMINATRIXXX
Banned
Powerplay can contain PvP but overall it's a fight of science/math/numbers. Which is boring 
Solution for all problems related to solo vs open is new universe with different ruleset. PVE player could play as their want in current universe. Those who looking fore more hardcore pvp experience could have separated only Open universe, it could be old as separate DLC. Any other solution like removing solo and group, or adding PVE Open harm some players.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
While that is a solution, the fact that players in all three game modes experience and affect the single shared galaxy state is not unanimously agreed to be a problem in the first place.
DBOBE and Michael have responded on various themes of this topic before now:
For fun
That said, it could be worth thinking about reducing the impact that solo & group players have on the political simulation.
Unlike community goals, Powerplay is a swinging balance - ie solo players are also balancing solo players.
Things change over time and I think, devs approach may change also. Everything is related to amount of player which will request changes. Developers may say something like that:
Unlike community goals, Powerplay is a swinging balance - ie solo players are also balancing solo players.
From the initial inception of the game we have considered all play modes are equally valid choices. While we are aware that some players disagree, this hasn't changed for us.
Michael
However I am not sure if they realised during design phase, that Open player may be forced to play in solo in order to counter actions of other players in solo. Everything break down to most efficient way to influence system. Even if you want play in Open but opposing faction choose to play against you in solo or group, they have advantage over players in Open, they cannot be killed by gankers. It is like communism - someone hoped that peoples would share their goods and assets, it is similar with Open/Solo/Group - Frontier hoped that modes will be balanced because solo balance solo. This is not true because someone uses Solo as tool to gain advantage and you are also forced to use solo to countermeasure this. Solo/Open/Group is not fair mechanic. In some cases it offers freedom in other force certain play style...
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Some things do change, no doubt - however the fundamental basis upon which the game is built remains. There were complaints about the existence of Solo and Private Groups from the time that some players realised that other players could choose to play without being able to be directly affected by them - those started just after the Kickstarter ended - and the three game modes were implemented and released in accordance with the design, not removed to suit the desires of a minority of players.
During the design phase, Frontier could only guess at how players would actually play the game. Min/Maxers will seek the path of least resistance, of course.
What Frontier have not done is force players to play with other players if they do not want to - and Min/Maxers who feel the need to play in Solo/PGs to maximise their impact are choosing to maximise rather than play among players - their choice.
DBOBE is also on record as expecting / desiring PvP to be "rare and meaningful" in the game - we know how that turned out....
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So how to play agains Maxers? Solo/Group is most efficient way to influence galaxy. If you want compete with that kind of player you are forced to play in their way, so existence of Solo mode in current state force you to play in Solo - this is really against Frontier concept of freedom. There are few solutions proposed by players, the most impactful is removing Solo and Group - I think this not gonna happen. Second option is to add separated universe, still I am not sure about that. The best solution is to lower BGS/PP/CG impact in Solo and Group mode and keep personal income (Credits, reputation etc.) at it is now. In that way, if you want compete in some social parts of the game, you need to be in Open. Of course you still can play in Solo and participate in PP but this is not the most efficient way.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
They have to be out-Maxed.
There are two multi-player modes where players can socialise - not just one - so there's no need to be in Open to do so.
As to an Open Play Bonus for PowerPlay - it was mooted over 10 months ago and, when asked in a recent stream whether the pin had been pulled, Sandro responded as follows:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uetVzNINdKU;t=26m40s
Sandro Sammarco said:
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In their search of freedom, they have killed it.
I (As a player) have no possible way to avoid the actions of fifth-column or the actions of coordinated solo players. That's the opposing thing of freedom.
Anyway the game is great, of course, but I really think this is a thing they should discuss seriously.
I (As a player) have no possible way to avoid the actions of fifth-column or the actions of coordinated solo players. That's the opposing thing of freedom.
Anyway the game is great, of course, but I really think this is a thing they should discuss seriously.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Forcing players to out-PvE other players, given that players who do not get involved in PvP would seem to be the majority of the player-base, will probably (in my opinion) lose fewer players than forcing players, who wish to take part in game content, to play in a mode where they can be engaged in PvP by other players.
It should also be borne in mind that the man behind the game does not consider E: D to have been sold as a PvP game, rather a game where PvP is possible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEtHu3AXw2Q;t=44m10s
The fact that both platforms share the single galaxy state (soon to be shaerd with the PS4 as well) is often missed here - there are players on XB1, in Open, that PC/Mac players cannot be instanced with.
Given that players are not instanced with players on other platforms and cannot be guaranteed to be instanced with other players in Open on the same platform or even to play at the same time of day, there will always be players who cannot be directly opposed.
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I know (And understand) that PC players can not oppose the XBox players. It's reasonable; but it's not the same being unable to oppose a player for "Tech-reason" and being unable to oppose it for "Dev decision" especially if the decision doesn't make any lore sense.
For the players leaving, I'm more like to (As said in the famous hand grenade) giving a BGS and PP boost to open players; so nobody'd be forced to anything. The real problem is not the relaxed player who wants to play without pvp; the problem is the large wings who coordinates their attacks and "exploit" the solo system (Right now, me and my wing are having problem with those, for example). It's really frustrating; they win because they are more and have more time, not because they flight in our system winged or escorted, or are better pilots, or have more influence...
That's the real fun-killer for me.
For the players leaving, I'm more like to (As said in the famous hand grenade) giving a BGS and PP boost to open players; so nobody'd be forced to anything. The real problem is not the relaxed player who wants to play without pvp; the problem is the large wings who coordinates their attacks and "exploit" the solo system (Right now, me and my wing are having problem with those, for example). It's really frustrating; they win because they are more and have more time, not because they flight in our system winged or escorted, or are better pilots, or have more influence...
That's the real fun-killer for me.
All you said is true. Even if this game is not sold as PVP game, the competitive part of community can not be abandoned. We shouldn't focus on arguing about: "this is unfair, we want only Open!" or "we want Solo because we do not like PVP, as David Braben said it is not PVP game". We need to find some solution which will satisfy both sides.
Robert Maynard, each time someone mention that there is something wrong with current open/solo solution you said that this is intended by developers: "Player freedom is core element of the game" I would agree with that "freedom statement", but how should I call situation when freedom of some major player group (PVE) is more important than freedom of some minor player group (PVP)? Even it is not clear at the first look, competitive players are forced to play in certain way, is their freedom less important?
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
It would seem that Frontier have already made that call - the freedom of players to avoid forced interaction by other players has been part of the game design from the outset.
Powerplay can contain PvP but overall it's a fight of science/math/numbers. Which is boring
And as i've noted before, sure, a group could try and stop people entering their systems (to undermine for an example) but that means they are not playing the PvE element of powerplay effectively, and their merit generation will be waaaay much slow than that of those who are doing PvE runs. It would affect different powers differently, depending on what they are doing. But basically those trying to PvP powerplay would have a much harder time of things.
The PvEers would fly fast ships and get past blockades and make deliveries.
If they had to go to military strikes (for example) those trying to stop them would also have to be present in those zones to stop them. They would have to be sitting in all possible zones. Or in SC and try and interdict people.
Interdictions - if you are in a smaller ship and you are being interdicted, fight it, you should win, but if not, anyway, fly a fast ship and high wake out and try again. If you are in a big ship, submit and wake.
Besides, if this was a thing, its not like those who want this are the only PvPers in the game and those they are fighting against don't have PvPers. If you are the stronger power in terms of supporting players, you should be winning regardless of PvP/PvP, assuming the spread of PvP and PvE players supporting your powers are roughly the same.
You want to undermine your opponents? You're going to be facing their PvPers, or defending your territory vs theirs. PvPers will keep PvPers busy (theoretically) while the PvErs going on about their business, perhaps with the occasional death if they mess up.
Remember, whatever FD changed, it would affect all powers.
It could turn out that any such changes cause bigger problems for your players.
Imagine that the changes did mean somehow blockades could be effective.
Now imagine, the other power that you are competiing with has more and better PvPers, and your power has far too many incompetitent PvEers. You're going to lose
Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it
(Just kidding: FD are not going to do make this change, i'd eat a sock if they did).
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
There's no requirement to engage in direct PvP in this game - the three game modes and single shared galaxy state make that pretty clear, in my opinion.
PowerPlay, like all other permanent content, has been implemented for all three game modes, as expected - the fact that a minority (players who engage in PvP) of a minority (players who engage in PowerPlay) want that to be changed is probably not sufficient reason for Frontier to mess with the effects of players in each game mode on the game itself.
Some folks can't exist without their STRAW MEN.
The PvP crowd has Solo and Private Groups as their hands down favorites here in ED. Despite the fact that they have absolutely ZERO telemetry to back up their claims about the effects Solo and Groups bring to PP and other aspects of Elite Dangerous, that has never stopped them from continuing to raise this false flag every chance they get.
The same goes for their equally misguided opinion that PvP rules PP's outcomes every cycle. A more self important group you will never find around here.
The PvP crowd has Solo and Private Groups as their hands down favorites here in ED. Despite the fact that they have absolutely ZERO telemetry to back up their claims about the effects Solo and Groups bring to PP and other aspects of Elite Dangerous, that has never stopped them from continuing to raise this false flag every chance they get.
The same goes for their equally misguided opinion that PvP rules PP's outcomes every cycle. A more self important group you will never find around here.