Exactly Bruce
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Stock answer from the PKer mob.
Some combat logging food for thought.. If H1Z1 can do it, why not FD?
- Thread starter Cosmos
- Start date
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Stock answer from the PKer mob.
Naturally people look for the weakest players - If you are then weak then team up with others. It's what wings was created for.
If you do not wish to be victimised or potentially lose hours of work don't play in open - at least until FD have fixed the problems you speak of.
The "rules" by FD are clear and everyone is bound by them - if you "pull the plug" for whatever reason you're cheating.
You have problems with your interenet and that's understandable.
Why then would you force your problems on someone else ?
(BTW I am in the Middle East so my connection tims are very poor also .. I drop periodically too)
Spoken like a true cheating* champion
*Frontier defined your deliberate actions as undesirable. If you don't like it perhaps you shouldn't play with the big boys in open
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Generally I would agree, but FD doesn't even play by their own "rules". NPCs blatantly cheat with interdiction mechanics (by basically ignoring every single limitation that is placed on players) and the interdictions themselves are extremely buggy. If a player has to resort to "cheating" to counter even worse cheating by NPCs or as a workaround for severe game bugs, then whose fault is that? I would say that until FD fixes the mess we currently have with interdictions that it's hard to blame dedicated traders from combat logging.
A more controversial response : Until FD fixes their mess stop playing
Look - I play Hardcore Diablo 3 .. Blizzard have stated that if you die, even if you were subject to lag / internet dies / whatever they will not restore your character. At the moment their servers have been subject to an ongoing DDOS attack ... that increases the risk of playing HC as you may well die .. Your response as a player : Either accept that risk and continue playing or stop playing !
Same in ED .. you either accept the risk and select a mode / social filter view that complements that, or stop playing.
EDIT:
As Willard said above the moment he's interdicted he pulls the plug. He has no idea if that person is going to play a legitimate role (piracy) or not and simply cheats instead. That isn't the answer - breaking the rules when the game doesn't go your way !
Either accept that you may die ...
EDIT2:
Just to put my money where my mouth is:
- I play in open 75% of the time
- I play self-IM (wipe char on death)
- I have been killed 12 times (so 12 wipes to start over)
- 4 by other commanders
- a few times slammed into the station whilst smuggling
- once hit the planet surface
- I have never, ever thought about combat logging or pulling the plug to evade death
I accept these risks and still play in open.
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If the combat logger interdicted you and then combat logged because he was losing then that is lame. Attacking unarmed traders with impunity is lame as well, just like seal clubbing. If the op is crying because some Tradaconda combat logged on his free kill then boohoo. You can be as salty as Lot's wife for all anyone cares.
How about you go to Eravate there are some serious pvpers there and they will never combat log. Oh but wait you will have to actually work for your kills and lol you would die in all seriousness.
How about you go to Eravate there are some serious pvpers there and they will never combat log. Oh but wait you will have to actually work for your kills and lol you would die in all seriousness.
Well this idea can cut both ways. Why can't the PVP players also "stop playing" until FD fixes the interdiction issues that are required for a proper PVP experience?
The issue here is that "risk" is based on buggy and fundamentally unfair interdiction mechanics and cheating NPCs. Why shouldn't the players who want to get some enjoyment out of the game despite the messed up interdiction mechanics be allowed to do whatever they need to do (including combat logging) to make the game playable for them until FD fixes these issues?
As Willard said above the moment he's interdicted he pulls the plug. He has no idea if that person is going to play a legitimate role (piracy) or not and simply cheats instead. That isn't the answer - breaking the rules when the game doesn't go your way !
I'm not encouraging combat logging in general, but like I said we have a very buggy game at the moment and interdictions are fundamental to the entire PVP experience. When we have buggy interdictions that aren't fair to traders, why should you expected traders to follow these "rules" when FD still hasn't made the necessary improvements and bug fixes needed for the game to work properly?
You will interfere with the OP's game play and he takes precedence over you because he plays PvP which is more important than your game play mode (what ever that may be). Moreover he has been blessed with a good internet connection so his opinions are also more important than yours. Therefore, you should just quit and start playing online chess or something that doesn't affect his game play.
/s (obviously)
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But... The PvPer will get his meat and your salty tears. That is all that matters at the end of the day. It's his way, or the highway...
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A more controversial response : Until FD fixes their mess stop playing
Look - I play Hardcore Diablo 3 .. Blizzard have stated that if you die, even if you were subject to lag / internet dies / whatever they will not restore your character. At the moment their servers have been subject to an ongoing DDOS attack ... that increases the risk of playing HC as you may well die .. Your response as a player : Either accept that risk and continue playing or stop playing !
Same in ED .. you either accept the risk and select a mode / social filter view that complements that, or stop playing.
EDIT:
As Willard said above the moment he's interdicted he pulls the plug. He has no idea if that person is going to play a legitimate role (piracy) or not and simply cheats instead. That isn't the answer - breaking the rules when the game doesn't go your way !
Either accept that you may die ...
EDIT2:
Just to put my money where my mouth is:
- I play in open 75% of the time
- I play self-IM (wipe char on death)
- I have been killed 12 times (so 12 wipes to start over)
- 4 by other commanders
- a few times slammed into the station whilst smuggling
- once hit the planet surface
- I have never, ever thought about combat logging or pulling the plug to evade death
I accept these risks and still play in open.
You enjoy playing hardcore. I'm sure there are others who play ED in a similar fashion. But I'd take a guess that those players are in the minority.
Looking at your comparison to Hardcore Diablo III. Again, I haven't played this game either. From my brief research, it would seem that PvP is a separate have-fun-fighting-but-ultimately-means-nothing mode. The risks to your character you would be facing would be from NPCs.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I assume you work your way up in difficulty with NPCs? Same is true for ED. The problem (one of them) is that player interdictions don't follow that grading system. So you're likely going to end up with a bunch of inexperienced (at least, in combat) cmdrs being interdicted by cmdrs who are experienced in combat (because this is what they enjoy doing). Some may enthusiastically view that as a challenge. I would wager that a fair number wouldn't.
Also, timeout for D3 is 10 seconds? We could always shorten the menu log timeout to make that more attractive rather than the alternatives.
I can't rep you anymore. I have to pread the love xD
I found out my laptop has a built in Combat Log button...
WiFi On...WiFi Off.. lol
Found it by accident!
WiFi On...WiFi Off.. lol
Found it by accident!
Well if poor connection = game penalties I'll probably have to stop playing, end of.
It's much easier. FD simply has to adjust the matchmaking in Open Mode and only put players with really good connection into instances with other players. Problem solved. Everybody only sees players with good connections and low ping.
Jup, the crying about empty open would be enormous.
Edit: Oh and it would change absolutely nothing about combat logging, but I'm sure it wasn't about combat logging …
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Brett C
Frontier
Which would end up being tagged as cheating if done so under the current timer count down.
A more controversial response : Until FD fixes their mess stop playing
Look - I play Hardcore Diablo 3 .. Blizzard have stated that if you die, even if you were subject to lag / internet dies / whatever they will not restore your character. At the moment their servers have been subject to an ongoing DDOS attack ... that increases the risk of playing HC as you may well die .. Your response as a player : Either accept that risk and continue playing or stop playing !
Same in ED .. you either accept the risk and select a mode / social filter view that complements that, or stop playing.
EDIT:
As Willard said above the moment he's interdicted he pulls the plug. He has no idea if that person is going to play a legitimate role (piracy) or not and simply cheats instead. That isn't the answer - breaking the rules when the game doesn't go your way !
Either accept that you may die ...
EDIT2:
Just to put my money where my mouth is:
- I play in open 75% of the time
- I play self-IM (wipe char on death)
- I have been killed 12 times (so 12 wipes to start over)
- 4 by other commanders
- a few times slammed into the station whilst smuggling
- once hit the planet surface
- I have never, ever thought about combat logging or pulling the plug to evade death
I accept these risks and still play in open.
"Play your way", clearly you like your games and clearly devote a lot of time to them. Playing your way involves playing IM, which is fine, enjoy
What if another player likes to play in open, for the occasional pleasant player interaction but doesn't really want to lose hours of game play to seal clubbers?
Can they play their way and log out at this point?
Or does "play your way" only apply to PKers?
Of course you'll say - "go play in Mobius". But why should they, why don't you set up a "seal clubbers" private group and see how many people want to join that?
Artemis Zodiac
Banned
"Play your way", clearly you like your games and clearly devote a lot of time to them. Playing your way involves playing IM, which is fine, enjoy
What if another player likes to play in open, for the occasional pleasant player interaction but doesn't really want to lose hours of game play to seal clubbers?
Can they play their way and log out at this point?
Or does "play your way" only apply to PKers?
Of course you'll say - "go play in Mobius". But why should they, why don't you set up a "seal clubbers" private group and see how many people want to join that?
seal clubbing groups already exist...they just don't brag about it on these forums...and I aint talking about our now local friendly pirate groups that like to be run by one eyed lions with lung problems.
P2P.
Too many variables involved when it comes to legitimate combat logging and otherwise losing connection.
E.g.
P2P dictates that myself and other Cmdrs that I might play with because we all live in the same area with similar connections are all having a good time. Then another Cmdr drops in from the other side of the world who happens to have superior internet, our game then goes to hell in a handbasket, we start losing connections and ghosting all over the place. And then get accused of combat logging.
Who should get punished?
Who does the punishing?
Too many variables.
Come back when we're all playing on a single shard server.
(laughter in the background)
Too many variables involved when it comes to legitimate combat logging and otherwise losing connection.
E.g.
P2P dictates that myself and other Cmdrs that I might play with because we all live in the same area with similar connections are all having a good time. Then another Cmdr drops in from the other side of the world who happens to have superior internet, our game then goes to hell in a handbasket, we start losing connections and ghosting all over the place. And then get accused of combat logging.
Who should get punished?
Who does the punishing?
Too many variables.
Come back when we're all playing on a single shard server.
(laughter in the background)
Well, that's made my mind up I think. Not that anyone will care. But I'll just stick with Solo from now on.
There have been a lot of separate but related issues raised on this thread:
1. Interdiction mechanics are broken.
Interdictions are harder to win than they used to be, I mostly don't bother trying and just submit. However, we've all had that submission that just didn't take. This is clearly a bug and it's not helping matters, it just needs fixing.
2a. Combat logging in Open/Group
Technically, given the peer-to-peer model, there is very little Frontier can do beyond what they are already doing. A single combat log event cannot be reliably distinguished from a network (disconnect) or client issue (crash) so instead they have to collect suspect instances and only if/when they form a clear pattern can they act upon it.
Given that, it is definitely too harsh to punish a single event. However, I am not sure what level of confidence is required for a punishment to be applied, nor am I sure of the various types of punishment which are handed out. It may be possible to create more and less severe punishments, for example:
If someone has 3 suspect combat log events then ban then from Open for 7 days.
If this sounds harsh, then increase the 3 or decrease the 7 until it feels right. This will always be a subjective process, there is no right answer here. Banning from open solves 2 problems; First, if they are guilty; they cannot combat log on another player. Second, if they are innocent; their poor connection will not adversely affect other players.
From here, if further events occur you escalate punishments. Bans are one option. In game credit deductions are another - hit em where it hurts I reckon. If a trader is combat logging to avoid losing credits then deduct credits the next time they login with a message popup saying the "galactic federation does not tolerate cowardice" or something equally in-game.
2b. Solo logging
Personally, I would not track/punish combat logging in Solo mode. I do not think anyone should care what another player does with their own time when it has no effect on anyone else's enjoyment (NPCs do not feel). Elite has never been about who has the biggest credit balance or the best ship so who really cares how they got there. Reasonable people may disagree on this point.
3. PKers
"Play the way you want to play" cuts both ways. If a player wants to kill other players for no other reason than they enjoy the (imagined) salty tears then so be it. Personally, I think it's reprehensible but that's completely beside the point.
However, if we as an (in game) society want to discourage this sort of play there are several "solutions":
- Increase in-game penalties for this sort of thing. I believe Sandro floated some ideas a while back.
- Form a player group who actively pursues/punishes this. This could use some more in-game help, like the ability to pay for information on other players whereabouts (not exact, but "last sighted" or similar).
4. Arena
Not really "on topic" but related only by virtue of being PvP. I would play it more, if I could get a match more consistently. I think it's a shame this has not caught on more.
5. Negativity
I really do not understand the comments stating that Frontier "do not care" or are intentionally "ruining" the game. There is absolutely no motivation for that to be the case and every motivation for the opposite to be true. Frontier want Elite to be the best game possible, they have a strong financial motivation but aside from that, as a developer myself, I can tell you that there are always more things you want to do than you have time to do and whatever your personal priorities there may well be higher level concerns which trump them. Not to mention that a project of this size, which needs to co-ordinate this number of people, will be planned months in advance and getting even a small change scheduled in that environment is tough, it has to be a really, really, really important thing to jump schedule.
6. General
Just one last general comment or two. It is my impression that "play the way you want to play" is one of Frontier/Elite's primary concerns and I think this is an ideal they should hold on to at all costs. Do not allow one type of player to dictate how another type of player must play. Personally I spend most of my time in solo. I am a single-player gamer, have been for 26 years and I'm not likely to change. I have tried a bunch of MMO games and I just did not get anything out of the player interaction experience that I valued. I do enjoy playing with a few friends every now and again, so Private Group mode suits me fine. My play time is restricted and I want to enjoy all of it so sometimes I just do not feel like dealing with other players getting in the way of the personal goals I have set myself. I am not "afraid" of other players or combat, I am actually fairly handy tho I don't have any real PvP experience to speak of so if I chose to get into it I would likely be terrible for a while, as with anything really.
1. Interdiction mechanics are broken.
Interdictions are harder to win than they used to be, I mostly don't bother trying and just submit. However, we've all had that submission that just didn't take. This is clearly a bug and it's not helping matters, it just needs fixing.
2a. Combat logging in Open/Group
Technically, given the peer-to-peer model, there is very little Frontier can do beyond what they are already doing. A single combat log event cannot be reliably distinguished from a network (disconnect) or client issue (crash) so instead they have to collect suspect instances and only if/when they form a clear pattern can they act upon it.
Given that, it is definitely too harsh to punish a single event. However, I am not sure what level of confidence is required for a punishment to be applied, nor am I sure of the various types of punishment which are handed out. It may be possible to create more and less severe punishments, for example:
If someone has 3 suspect combat log events then ban then from Open for 7 days.
If this sounds harsh, then increase the 3 or decrease the 7 until it feels right. This will always be a subjective process, there is no right answer here. Banning from open solves 2 problems; First, if they are guilty; they cannot combat log on another player. Second, if they are innocent; their poor connection will not adversely affect other players.
From here, if further events occur you escalate punishments. Bans are one option. In game credit deductions are another - hit em where it hurts I reckon. If a trader is combat logging to avoid losing credits then deduct credits the next time they login with a message popup saying the "galactic federation does not tolerate cowardice" or something equally in-game.
2b. Solo logging
Personally, I would not track/punish combat logging in Solo mode. I do not think anyone should care what another player does with their own time when it has no effect on anyone else's enjoyment (NPCs do not feel). Elite has never been about who has the biggest credit balance or the best ship so who really cares how they got there. Reasonable people may disagree on this point.
3. PKers
"Play the way you want to play" cuts both ways. If a player wants to kill other players for no other reason than they enjoy the (imagined) salty tears then so be it. Personally, I think it's reprehensible but that's completely beside the point.
However, if we as an (in game) society want to discourage this sort of play there are several "solutions":
- Increase in-game penalties for this sort of thing. I believe Sandro floated some ideas a while back.
- Form a player group who actively pursues/punishes this. This could use some more in-game help, like the ability to pay for information on other players whereabouts (not exact, but "last sighted" or similar).
4. Arena
Not really "on topic" but related only by virtue of being PvP. I would play it more, if I could get a match more consistently. I think it's a shame this has not caught on more.
5. Negativity
I really do not understand the comments stating that Frontier "do not care" or are intentionally "ruining" the game. There is absolutely no motivation for that to be the case and every motivation for the opposite to be true. Frontier want Elite to be the best game possible, they have a strong financial motivation but aside from that, as a developer myself, I can tell you that there are always more things you want to do than you have time to do and whatever your personal priorities there may well be higher level concerns which trump them. Not to mention that a project of this size, which needs to co-ordinate this number of people, will be planned months in advance and getting even a small change scheduled in that environment is tough, it has to be a really, really, really important thing to jump schedule.
6. General
Just one last general comment or two. It is my impression that "play the way you want to play" is one of Frontier/Elite's primary concerns and I think this is an ideal they should hold on to at all costs. Do not allow one type of player to dictate how another type of player must play. Personally I spend most of my time in solo. I am a single-player gamer, have been for 26 years and I'm not likely to change. I have tried a bunch of MMO games and I just did not get anything out of the player interaction experience that I valued. I do enjoy playing with a few friends every now and again, so Private Group mode suits me fine. My play time is restricted and I want to enjoy all of it so sometimes I just do not feel like dealing with other players getting in the way of the personal goals I have set myself. I am not "afraid" of other players or combat, I am actually fairly handy tho I don't have any real PvP experience to speak of so if I chose to get into it I would likely be terrible for a while, as with anything really.
Everyone can get a real disconnection and everyone can combat log and say he got disconnection.
The solution is simple. A ship should stay in-game about 60 seconds after disconnection and problem solved. If someone will get a disconnection during combat then he will get just bad luck. Rebuys in this game are not so much painful, so this is not a big deal, and Combat logging will definately end. Also menu log should have 60 sec timeout.
The solution is simple. A ship should stay in-game about 60 seconds after disconnection and problem solved. If someone will get a disconnection during combat then he will get just bad luck. Rebuys in this game are not so much painful, so this is not a big deal, and Combat logging will definately end. Also menu log should have 60 sec timeout.
Connectivity issues aren't a big thing in terms of the gameplay itself. Being P2P, you don't deal with the connection speed issues that server-side instances have; games like Destiny and by the looks of it your referenced game use server-side instances, and connectivity problems can give you an advantage here. In Destiny for instance when two players melee each other, if one has a slow connection they will get completely missed while the server cannot sync the location correctly in time - but their melee will hit the player with the good connection.
P2P games don't suffer like this. The chap with the poor connection typically drops out the game or periodically shifts location. This issue it DOES present is the CL situation we have . Far, FAR too many people think the CL issue is around the 15 second login timer. Nonsense. A CMDR escaping death in the quickest way possible will force close his game; the 15 second timer means jack all here, and there is no server-side instance to keep the ship present and visible to all players to shoot. Once the game is force closed, other people's clients think the CLer's ship may as well not exist.
This why FD have the time they do resolving it. Unfortunately they have touted their 15 second timer as if it's the final solution, and the promise they made to start delivering a resolution in terms of punishing offenders following their gathering of data is still a very distant blip on the horizon as far as I can see. They've accepted that the force quit method of CLing is a violation of game conduct, but while we won't get any change to the 15 second timer they love, it looks like we're still gonna have to put up with CMDRs suddenly flying in a straight line and taking no damage shortly before poofing because they were losing the fight (regardless of who started it).
It's okay. I am not pirating for profit, and knowing that somewhere out there some crybaby has gone into a panic and force closed their game after starting a fight on my puts a good old smile on my face.
P2P games don't suffer like this. The chap with the poor connection typically drops out the game or periodically shifts location. This issue it DOES present is the CL situation we have . Far, FAR too many people think the CL issue is around the 15 second login timer. Nonsense. A CMDR escaping death in the quickest way possible will force close his game; the 15 second timer means jack all here, and there is no server-side instance to keep the ship present and visible to all players to shoot. Once the game is force closed, other people's clients think the CLer's ship may as well not exist.
This why FD have the time they do resolving it. Unfortunately they have touted their 15 second timer as if it's the final solution, and the promise they made to start delivering a resolution in terms of punishing offenders following their gathering of data is still a very distant blip on the horizon as far as I can see. They've accepted that the force quit method of CLing is a violation of game conduct, but while we won't get any change to the 15 second timer they love, it looks like we're still gonna have to put up with CMDRs suddenly flying in a straight line and taking no damage shortly before poofing because they were losing the fight (regardless of who started it).
It's okay. I am not pirating for profit, and knowing that somewhere out there some crybaby has gone into a panic and force closed their game after starting a fight on my puts a good old smile on my face.