Something I'd like to say to those complaining about the new engineer system.

[Chris Simon]

On the note of mechanics, my brother (who's a mechanic) offered this insight (which I had to have him write down, I'm no good with cars myself. x.x):

You get a brand-new older car you want to make faster. So start with basics...first headers and dual exhaust (G1). Then (on older cars) remove the belt-driven fan and replace it with an electric one (G2). Then polish the insides of the intake manifold for smoother airflow (G3)...each step adds more power, at cost of fuel efficiency and some extra wear, of course.

Then you get a different car. You want it to be fast too. Which means...doing the same steps on THIS engine, because what you did on the old first has no bearing.

Each grade on a module is a step in the process of adding all the modifications, one at a time, and each roll within the grade a "tuning" stage to maximize the performance of that particular modification or add-on.

Works the same way with lightweight modifications. First you remove unnecessary bits. Then replace a heavy piece with a lightweight replacement. Then replace a heavy steel frame-bit with an aluminum one (G3)...and so on and so forth.

Brilliant!

 

[Deleted member 110222]

Real-world analogues work both ways though, don't they?

Indeed. Your off-the-shelf engine can still be improved, and I refer you to the original analogy.

 

[Hellakitty]

Not sure what you're asking. Just like in RL, and just like you said yourself, packaged performance engines that exceed stock specifications can be pre-bought for racing vehicles. Far as I know, they don't make them for big cargo vessels, or military ones, in RL, land or sea. You can get the better engines from factory (represented by grades D to A) but there's limits on what's considered reliable/acceptable by military and corporations in terms of longevity of the engine and possible detriments. When a commander goes to some hermit to get the engine tweaked on their battleship (Corvette) or cargo plane (T9) they're taking risks that the detriments won't bite them in the butt later.

That that's nowadays world, you don't what it's going to be like in a thousand years time. /s

Indeed. Your off-the-shelf engine can still be improved, and I refer you to the original analogy.

I refer you back to the fact that real-world analogues can work both ways.

This is going nowhere. Agree to disagree?

 

[Lucifera Danzig]

That that's nowadays world, you don't what it's going to be like in a thousand years time. /s

We kinda do, in that FDev have painted a picture for us. The makers of all the ships we fly are corporations with more power than all the governments of our world combined, and what they decide to sell us is what's available. Combine that with the fact that in all the environments you could break down in, space is the very very worst one possible. So reliability and tested dependability is the needed standard, and us crazy types that fiddle with our ships to make 'em go faster are...well...a bit crazy.

 

[Deleted member 110222]

That that's nowadays world, you don't what it's going to be like in a thousand years time. /s



I refer you back to the fact that real-world analogues can work both ways.

This is going nowhere. Agree to disagree?

No we don't know if things will change.

So it's safe to assume they won't.

Also, Elite isn't real. So it's a silly argument, as what's what in the Elite universe is entirely made up by an author.

 

[lenna]

You are talking about nowadays world. We have no idea what it will be like in a few thousand years.

It's like people calling stuff magic potions and magic healing lasers. Everything looks like magic when you don't understand how it works.

Arthur C. Clarke's Three Laws - with the most cited bit being "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".

 

[Audaxxx]

Especially with pining. Once the most used blueprints are pinned, casually upgrading to G3-G4 in any ship, anywhere without running around to engineers like a headless chicken is really good.

Have you been able to do this? My pins seem to be connected to the ship so when I change ship I have to travel to the Engineer again to re-pin.

Now we wait for Q4, huh? Hopefully the Exploration overhauls will create decent gameplay accociated with finding Mats.

That would be nice but if not, then it would be good if they'd address it separately. I've given in trying to engineer all my ships for the time being. The collection of Imperial Shielding and Core Dynamic Composites for Boosters and HRP's was the final straw. I'll wait and see if the trade rates get adjusted before getting back to it.

 

[Truesilver]

The thing that surprises me about the 'mid tier' school of thought, which opinion I might summarise as ...

"I like to do only a couple of g5 rolls, therefore 3.0 is, for me, more effort than 2.4"

... is that I think in most cases I'd actually find the new system the easier one, even just to do that.

I mean, yes, you have to g1-g4 but isn't that usually outweighed by the Mats Trader?

For example, even doing just a couple of g5 dirty drives rolls requires 2 x CIF. It's much easer to get 2 x CIF now, than before.

 

[Punished Mobius]

I really do not think that anyone who says they prefer the old RNG system knows what they are talking about. On like a statistical level. It is just objectively a better system now.

And then there is the moral problem behind it...

RNGineers was emulating gambling. (There was an actual roulette wheel) Gambling does not favor the gamblers. Gambling is evil. The developers who decided to put gambling in the game are considered to be evil by me. And I do not think I will ever be able to forgive them for the massive amount of disrespect they showed to their players over these years by insisting on such gambling mechanics. As for players. I don't think you are evil if you like RNG gambling I think you have an actual problem in that case...I would consider you a victim.

 

[jasonbarron]

I think the main reason some people are complaining is that even if they put a lot of grind into engineering, they won't get better module than everyone else.
The max is firmly given. They call it "unfair", I call it balance.

New engineering is great, encourages experimenting with secondaries and most importantly, doesn't create god ships.
I just wish they didn't allow us to keep the modules created under the old system. But as "most" of the old people are leaving the game, anyway (according to forums), this problem will sort itself out, eventually.

There are no secondaries to fiddle with now, are there? I think you mean special effects.

I agree that this system is better all around for everybody, from the ground up starting with gathering materials towards engineering the module itself. The only thing I'm complaining about is the fact that they grandfathered in secondaries that are not possible with the new system. Other then that, the new system is a big win.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Like I said. Real-world analogues work both ways.

Someone posts a real-world analogue of how they think the engineers work, and everyone nods their heads and say uh huh that's right.

A different, but equally legitimate analogue of how the engineers work, and oh no that's just you talking about today's world, we don't know what it'll be like in a thousand years.

True. But if there is a real world analogy that works, then use it. Why try to find one that doesn't? You want a real world explanation, someone offers one that makes more sense then your own, use it.

What's the issue? At the end of the day, it's a game and we try to rationalise things as much as we can, so use what we can instead of trying to destroy it. The only one I cant rationalise is galaxy wide instant telepresence no matter how much I try.

Arthur C. Clarke's Three Laws - with the most cited bit being "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".

Yup. Just think what a person from 1066 would think if they went forwards in time to nowadays. It would all be magic.

 

[lenna]

Yup. Just think what a person from 1066 would think if they went forwards in time to nowadays. It would all be magic.

Software engineers (and engineers in general) would probably be accused of witch-craft.

As for how this relates to the revisions to the engineers, I am not exactly sure.

The material traders could be explained as a simplistic barter system of sorts. The revised engineering mechanics actually make more sense than the previous RNG jiggery-pokery IMO.

 

[Roybe]

I've seen this comment quite a lot.

"I prefer the old system because I was happy to settle for a mid-range roll. New system means I have to grind."

Right, I'm going to be blunt.

This quote is silly. It makes no sense. None at all.

In the old system, yes, it's true. You could technically get a god roll on the first attempt. Great, cool. But you know what else could happen in the old system? You could get a bottom 1% roll every time. RNG meant that was possible. Indeed, I do have one friend who made several hundred G5 rolls. They all sucked. He got no gain whatsoever.

Here's the thing about the new system. Here's why it is better, even for those happy with "mid-range" rolls.

Yes, the minimum number of rolls needed to progress has increased. I'm not denying this, as it is irrefutable fact. However! The maximum amount of rolls to achieve the absolute best result has, on average, decreased by a literally immeasurable margin. What used to take on average a few hundred rolls... Now takes at most twenty. And that's on really bad RNG progression. So far, my G5 mods have taken between 8-12.

Can someone please explain to me, how on earth 20 rolls of guaranteed progression is worse than several hundred rolls that are each worse than the last? It absolutely boggles the mind.

So yes. I'm sorry folks. You're never going to get to experience that god roll on attempt #1. You will have to do some work. But overall, the "grind" has been reduced massively.

Here's the thing. Nobody is really happy with "mid-range". We all want "the best" at heart. We all want that extra 2m/s, that extra 0.13ly. And now, getting those stats is a very reasonable, and realistic goal for even the most casual players.

Nobody has lost anything with the new system. Nobody. But instead, everyone has gained. Massively. The problem is, some people seem to not be able to accept this.

One final point. "I want mid-range only."

I think Frontier wants you all to get top results now. Winter is coming. I think you'll need the engineering soon. I think PvE is going to get very interesting, thanks to Thargoids.

What makes me laugh even harder to this is that the 'mid roll' folks can stop even earlier for their mid roll than what they were doing in the old system!

 

[lenna]

What makes me laugh even harder to this is that the 'mid roll' folks can stop even earlier for their mid roll than what they were doing in the old system!

I do get what some are complaining about but I disagree with their perspective.

The new system does require a higher number of rolls on average to get a reasonable G4/G5 roll. Sure, the original RNG system could be a problem at times but it was far from a universal concern - some may have NEVER had an issue with it.... jammy peeps

Overall, it does not matter what FD do in any given area there are bound to be at least some that are either opposed to what was done or miffed because they feel something else should have been done instead.

 

[Chris Simon]

I do get what some are complaining about but I disagree with their perspective.

The new system does require a higher number of rolls on average to get a reasonable G4/G5 roll. Sure, the original RNG system could be a problem at times but it was far from a universal concern - some may have NEVER had an issue with it.... jammy peeps

Overall, it does not matter what FD do in any given area there are bound to be at least some that are either opposed to what was done or miffed because they feel something else should have been done instead.

In the old system, I have never even once managed to get a decent G5 roll in 8-10 tries. The new system gets me there easily and reliably. Sure if you were lucky, and had the rep, you could roll G5 once and be out. And if that ever happened to anybody, I understand they feel the new system is grindier. But for unlucky sods like me it's not.

 

[lenna]

In the old system, I have never even once managed to get a decent G5 roll in 8-10 tries. The new system gets me there easily and reliably. Sure if you were lucky, and had the rep, you could roll G5 once and be out. And if that ever happened to anybody, I understand they feel the new system is grindier. But for unlucky sods like me it's not.

Personally, I normally got decent G5 rolls in <10 tries (typically <5 - not necessarily god rolls though). That being said, I prefer the new system for numerous reasons.

 

[Stealthie]

I've seen this comment quite a lot.

"I prefer the old system because I was happy to settle for a mid-range roll. New system means I have to grind."

Right, I'm going to be blunt.

This quote is silly. It makes no sense. None at all.

In the old system, yes, it's true. You could technically get a god roll on the first attempt. Great, cool. But you know what else could happen in the old system? You could get a bottom 1% roll every time. RNG meant that was possible. Indeed, I do have one friend who made several hundred G5 rolls. They all sucked. He got no gain whatsoever.

Here's the thing about the new system. Here's why it is better, even for those happy with "mid-range" rolls.

Yes, the minimum number of rolls needed to progress has increased. I'm not denying this, as it is irrefutable fact. However! The maximum amount of rolls to achieve the absolute best result has, on average, decreased by a literally immeasurable margin. What used to take on average a few hundred rolls... Now takes at most twenty. And that's on really bad RNG progression. So far, my G5 mods have taken between 8-12.

The trouble is, you're not really comparing like with like.

People are definitely better-off with the new system, in almost any circumstances, but that's mostly result of "power-creep" than any fundamental superiority of the new system.

Previously, I could go to an engineer, select a G5 mod' and get something that was within the top 25% after 2 or 3 rolls.
Now I can go to an engineer and 3 G5 rolls will give me something at least as good, if not better, than I had before but that's because G5 mod's are (generally) more powerful than they used to be - and I've had to collect all those G1-G4 mat's, screw around with traders and make a bunch of sacrificial rolls to get to that point.

It isn't really the engineering, itself, that bothers me.
It's all the other stuff that is now overshadowed by the constant need for engineering mat's.
Flying through a system; gotta stop at every USS to collect mat's.
In a CZ or RES; gotta stop the pew-pew to hoover up those mat's.
Destroy a pirate who attacks you; gotta collect up those mat's.
And then, when a mat' is finally full, you gotta scoot across to a trader, trade it for something else to make more space so you can hoover up even more mat's in future.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

You do have a point !

For us not maxing, we still need 5-8 rolls just to get to G5,then even 2 G5 rolls means a minimum investment of 7-10 rolls,compared to 1-3 rolls.
Over six ships only, that is up to 60 rolls vs less than 20 before. New system is a godsend for god rollers.

2 G5 rolls worth of material gives you about enough mats to do all of the rolls to G5, considering the mat trader.
So you'll still end up with better results.

Acting as if you need to acquire each mat is red herring.
In the old system, yes you did, and that meant way more searching.

I don't even look for chemical manipulators any more.
Arsenic?
LOL.
I leave it on the ground more often than not.

 

[GG7]

I think the main reason some people are complaining is that even if they put a lot of grind into engineering, they won't get better module than everyone else.
The max is firmly given. They call it "unfair", I call it balance.

New engineering is great, encourages experimenting with secondaries and most importantly, doesn't create god ships.
I just wish they didn't allow us to keep the modules created under the old system. But as "most" of the old people are leaving the game, anyway (according to forums), this problem will sort itself out, eventually.

Yeah...How unfortunate that everyone is back to having basically the same engineered ships and once again a level playing field.

Guess the winning ship will once again come down to piloting skills and combat tactics vs who spent 2 weeks rolling for the best upgrades possible.

Oh the shame of it all! What a complete a total disaster for the game!

You can pick out the lackluster players by how loud they are yelling and screaming about this change. The louder and more negative the posts, the more mediocre the flying and combat skills are of the player posting those comments.

 

[Chris Simon]

Yeah...How unfortunate that everyone is back to having basically the same engineered ships and once again a level playing field.

Guess the winning ship will once again come down to piloting skills and combat tactics vs who spent 2 weeks rolling for the best upgrades possible.

Oh the shame of it all! What a complete a total disaster for the game!

You can pick out the lackluster players by how loud they are yelling and screaming about this change. The louder and more negative the posts, the more mediocre the flying and combat skills are of the player posting those comments.

Something like that.
Or at least that's how I imagine it.