Something I'd like to say to those complaining about the new engineer system.

[Truesilver]

It might mean I lose an extra Top-of-Row Mat here and there but bearing in mind that I can, every 10 minutes approx, have guaranteed acquisition of 5 items of a Top-of-Row element, data or manufactured mat, that's nothing.

Show me where you can get guaranteed HGE's and DWE's once every ten minutes, ad infinitum? Please?

Sorry man, just meant that you can farm Top-of-Row in each of the three tables. You can't farm individual entries for each row and I understand the problem this causes with choke-points for Data and Manufactured. The closest you can do is farm BioTech and MEF.

My point is not that this solves g5 choke-points (it doesn't) but that it means that g1-g4 becomes irrelevant.

 

[CMDR Carbo]

For you maybe but not for many others. I will be using G1 - G5 mods as I don't grind for materials. It will mean that putting a G1-4 mod on my ship now has a purpose instead of it feeling like a waste of time.

That's simple not true, especially for PvE.

Even in the old system I've never done a lightweight modification above G3, or overcharged my powerplant above G3. For most ships I stopped with dirty drives and G3. G1-G4 may be better now, but that doesn't mean they were useless in the old system.

While I really dislike anything jumping below 20 ly, I don't give a rats bottom if my G5 FSD modified ship now jumps 30 ly or 33 ly.

I'm completely with Truesilver about the new engineering system. I don't dislike the new engineering system because the old one was better. Very few people say the old system was better.
The reason I don't like the new engineering system is because Fdev created an amazing system, but then slapped a completely unnecessary g1-g4 grind on top of it, because, oh, we can't have the player have something THAT good.
We want them to grind, and what is the most boring grind in the game that we can have them do? Farming materials!
Because, you know, we value the players time, ahh, we mean grind.

 

[Sylow]

The reason I don't like the new engineering system is because Fdev created an amazing system, but then slapped a completely unnecessary g1-g4 grind on top of it, because, oh, we can't have the player have something THAT good.
We want them to grind, and what is the most boring grind in the game that we can have them do? Farming materials!
Because, you know, we value the players time, ahh, we mean grind.

.
But as TS and many others already have stated: the materials for G1-G4 come in by themselves while you gather the G5 materials.
.
It's nice that you and a few others speak of additional grind all of the time, but more and more people, after actually using the system, report what i already found out during the beta (after venting all my materials there): G1-G4 is no additional grind. Only people who draw from big pre-3.0 stockpiles of high quality materials experience some additional grind for the lower tiers, while having everything at hand for G5 already.
.
If you play "normally", without pre-existing material stockpiles, lower grade materials come in all the time. Even when working to collect G5 material, you generally get more of the G1-G4 materials than you need to get the modules to be ready to roll G5. (Yes, there's a few gaps here and there, which you have to bridge with the material trader, but as other materials come in in excess it's really not that bad. )
.
So in terms of gameplay i consider it quite logical that FD wants us to create G1-G4 again and again. It's nothing else but a sink for those materials, which automatically come in all of the time. Before material traders, we vented that stuff. Now we can uptrade it and to keep uptrade a bit under control, a new sink was implemented.
.
It's not pretty, but i see why FD considers it necessary. Also, there was a very good example of car tuning here, which shows that the whole upgrading process basically very much exists in RL.
.
Where i do agree is that things -could- have been more interesting. Before 2.1 launched, it would've been possible to design it differently. We got material gathering, and i also was very disappointed of what we got. Unfortunately completely turning Engineers around now is no option. People would revolt. Improving the existing system was the best that was possible, and i think that 3.0 was a huge improvement to what we had before.
.
And btw, on more engaging material gathering, i also dare to say that i got me a pile of cracked industrial firmware and even more rare material from missions. Flying wing assassination missions for materials is, at least in my book, a huge improvement to the old methods of material collection. So at least there's that. It might not be a direct upgrade to the Engineers, but it still makes engineering more interesting and engaging for me.
.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

That's simple not true, especially for PvE.

Even in the old system I've never done a lightweight modification above G3, or overcharged my powerplant above G3. For most ships I stopped with dirty drives and G3. G1-G4 may be better now, but that doesn't mean they were useless in the old system.

While I really dislike anything jumping below 20 ly, I don't give a rats bottom if my G5 FSD modified ship now jumps 30 ly or 33 ly.

I'm completely with Truesilver about the new engineering system. I don't dislike the new engineering system because the old one was better. Very few people say the old system was better.
The reason I don't like the new engineering system is because Fdev created an amazing system, but then slapped a completely unnecessary g1-g4 grind on top of it, because, oh, we can't have the player have something THAT good.
We want them to grind, and what is the most boring grind in the game that we can have them do? Farming materials!
Because, you know, we value the players time, ahh, we mean grind.

Sorry mate but that isn't true. I play PvE and am a casual player. I find the lower grades feel like they have a purpose. Please don't say how I feel about something as not true, as you do not know how I feel. I like the fact that there is a process and that the lower grade now have a purpose when before I felt like they didn't.

This is how I see them, and I much prefer it to the old system. I never liked the idea that grades 1-4 felt like a waste and unimportant, especially if I intended to get a grade 5 eventually.

 

[CMDR Carbo]

.
But as TS and many others already have stated: the materials for G1-G4 come in by themselves while you gather the G5 materials.
.

That still doesn't make g1-4 requirement any less useless and stupid.

Jeez, I swear, whenever anyone points out how dumb that additional G1-4 requirement is, completely and illogically undermining ranking up with the engineer (which has improved after beta1 at least), there's somebody coming with the same excuse.
It's not going to change my opinion.
Engineering in 3.0 hasn't changed my opinion.

Is the new engineering system better? Yes, by miles.
It's still crippled, though.

 

[[VR] scipio_77]

Sorry mate but that isn't true. I play PvE and am a casual player. I find the lower grades feel like they have a purpose. Please don't say how I feel about something as not true, as you do not know how I feel. I like the fact that there is a process and that the lower grade now have a purpose when before I felt like they didn't.

This is how I see them, and I much prefer it to the old system. I never liked the idea that grades 1-4 felt like a waste and unimportant, especially if I intended to get a grade 5 eventually.

Yeah, I'm with this.

As a recently returned player, the engineering feels like a fairly natural scale of progression. Though I miss (non-exploit) skimmer missions for a natural activity to combine with ground mining.

Though I can see that some of the ways to unlock it and the hunt for certain mats can be grindy and probably a bit frustrating if you have large quantities you plan to max out - but I'm happy with a more balanced approach myself.

I can also see that the bonuses are so big, that if you are an avid PvPer - they're a necessity. Big PvE grinds for PvP capability can be bothersome.

 

[Sylow]

That still doesn't make g1-4 requirement any less useless and stupid.

.
Hmm. I guess you only read what you quoted? If not, you could've noticed that in my text also why the game probably needs a material sink after the given changes. It's not all pretty and shiny, but unfortunately i think it's necessary.
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Not to mention, once again, the example of car tuning. But i guess everybody in RL who first tunes other parts of his car, before installing the NOX-tank also is doing it wrong...
.

 

[Hellakitty]

Please don't say how I feel about something as not true, as you do not know how I feel.

I mean, I'm all for this. Invalidating someone else's experience isn't cool.

But please, take your own advice.

The utter contempt you've shown and how quick you are to dismiss other people's experience of the new engineering system doesn't really stand you in good stead to be making statements like that.

Not having a go, not trying to stir the pot. Just observing. Practice what you preach.

 

[CMDR Carbo]

Sorry mate but that isn't true. I play PvE and am a casual player. I find the lower grades feel like they have a purpose. Please don't say how I feel about something as not true, as you do not know how I feel. I like the fact that there is a process and that the lower grade now have a purpose when before I felt like they didn't.

This is how I see them, and I much prefer it to the old system. I never liked the idea that grades 1-4 felt like a waste and unimportant, especially if I intended to get a grade 5 eventually.

Yeah, sorry mate, that still doesn't make it true FOR ME.

Bye, bye.

 

[Stealthie]

Not to mention, once again, the example of car tuning. But i guess everybody in RL who first tunes other parts of his car, before installing the NOX-tank also is doing it wrong...
.

I wish people would stop mentioning it cos it doesn't make sense.

When you tune up a car, you don't decide to, for example, upgrade the brakes by first fitting new pads and then fitting new pads and disks and then fitting new pads, disks and brake-lines and then fitting new pads, disks, brake-lines and a new servo and then fitting new pads, disks, brake-lines, a new servo and new calipers.

If you're going for the "top-tier" brake upgrade, you get all the parts and fit them in one go.

 

[Vorxian]

I think Frontier wants you all to get top results now. Winter is coming. I think you'll need the engineering soon. I think PvE is going to get very interesting, thanks to Thargoids.

Don't say that. I'm done with winter... More like SPRING is coming!

I like spring.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Yeah, sorry mate, that still doesn't make it true FOR ME.

Bye, bye.

And that is fine. We all have our own opinions which are all valid.

I mean, I'm all for this. Invalidating someone else's experience isn't cool.

But please, take your own advice.

The utter contempt you've shown and how quick you are to dismiss other people's experience of the new engineering system doesn't really stand you in good stead to be making statements like that.

Not having a go, not trying to stir the pot. Just observing. Practice what you preach.

I would like to see where I have done that?

 

[Hellakitty]

I wish people would stop mentioning it cos it doesn't make sense.

When you tune up a car, you don't decide to, for example, upgrade the brakes by first fitting new pads and then fitting new pads and disks and then fitting new pads, disks and brake-lines and then fitting new pads, disks, brake-lines and a new servo and then fitting new pads, disks, brake-lines, a new servo and new calipers.

If you're going for the "top-tier" brake upgrade, you get all the parts and fit them in one go.

Sorry to keep banging this drum:

Or you just take your car to the workshop, and say I want X,Y and Z done please. You give them the money, they source the best parts and fit them.

 

[Hellakitty]

And that is fine. We all have our own opinions which are all valid.



I would like to see where I have done that?

Yeah, nah. I'm not getting into that reddit-esque neckbeard special circus of 'show me evidence of' so an argument of semantics can take place, while the whole point of what was being discussed gets left further and further behind.

You know exactly what I'm talking about.

If you genuinely don't, then you're not nearly self-aware enough to be making statements like you did originally.

 

[Stealthie]

Sorry to keep banging this drum:

Or you just take your car to the workshop, and say I want X,Y and Z done please. You give them the money, they source the best parts and fit them.

Well, yeah.
Same thing though.

You don't rock up at Irmscher or Mugen and ask for their "Stage 4 brake kit" only to be told "I'm sorry sir, first you have to buy the stage 1 kit, and then you buy the stage 2 kit, and then you buy the stage 3 kit and then we'll let you buy the stage 4 kit".

In terms of ED, if that means we still have to gather up a heap of low-tier mat's and then hand them over to "pay" for the desired upgrade, fine. Take 'em. Just get me to the upgrade I want without a bunch of pointless mouse-clicking.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Yeah, nah. I'm not getting into that reddit-esque neckbeard special circus of 'show me evidence of' so an argument of semantics can take place, while the whole point of what was being discussed gets left further and further behind.

You know exactly what I'm talking about.

If you genuinely don't, then you're not nearly self-aware enough to be making statements like you did originally.

No, I don't. The only times I get shirty with people is when they peddle their opinons that can't be back up by facts as facts. When they start saying this is how I feel about it, that's fine. I may point out areas they may not have thought about which may change their feeling about something, but thats about it. But at the end of the day we all have our own opinions on what gameplay we like etc. I am certainly not judging anybody for that. At the end of the day it's a game and shouldn't be taken that seriously.

I see nothing wrong with that. Sometimes it's all about how you look at something. Look at it a bit differently and it may all make a bit more sense.

My original statement was all about how I felt when using the engineers. What exactly was wrong with that.

 

[lecorsobreton]

You missed the point for us NON-GOD rollers....we'd get engineer to G5 once then only roll 1 to 3 times and accept what we got. Hence subsequent ships did only 1-3 rolls,not 12-20 !!!

This, so much this. And the old system gave access to all module variants.

 

[Redomus]

In a world where feelings override fact..

 

[Vorxian]

Sorry to keep banging this drum:

Or you just take your car to the workshop, and say I want X,Y and Z done please. You give them the money, they source the best parts and fit them.

This would work better for me tbh.

I think I'd voluntarily pay a lot more for that option.

Option A - you supply, get upgrade minimal cost.
Option B - we supply you pay. Expensive option.

I'd take option B any time of day, I don't have enough lifetime left for A

 

[Muetdhiver]

G1-G4 grindy grindy hoopla loopy is just that : a way to grind people time.

Bad ? Good ? Depends. If one definition of good gameplay include tedium (material collection) to jump through loops (G1-G3) to access stuff (G4-G5).
Then yeah, it's bang one high quality gameplay. Case study of unimaginative, boring and repetitive gameplay loop for an extrinsic reward.

The new engineering system is really good. A pearl. Only FD decided that it was all to nice and pretty and slapped a few good
layers of turd on it to "respect players time" : waste-o-tron conversion rations and waste-o-tron loopy G1-G4 grind,
bundled with extra-interesting wait for HGE and other such wait-to-play "gameplay".

Worse part : it reeks upper management "feature adjustments" to improve metrics.

I really want to like it, but some design choices are so damn *infuriating*