Space Legs: what exactly would we use them for?

[schmicknick]

Good Question. And maybe there have been alot of threads on it, but I haven't seen much. I'll have to look.

I gathered from a Braben interview (a while back) that having something to do was the real crux.

I like the idea of staions/bases/locales having key zones that can be interacted with to flip/secure a zone, find loot, etc.

Maybe something like lock-picking skills get tied in with noteriety, or the black-market network count.
There might be ten or more different types of approach styles to each zone switch.

I like the Splinter Cell reference.

Also, each zone having an ambient lighting effect to reflect the current status.
Tying these into factions locally is how I saw it. taking control of more area to benefit one of the factions in the station/area.

Almost like a giant 3D Risk board, but with more involved mechanics on the switches.

At this point I feel like dwelving deeper into the particulars of the switch mechanics, but I don't have more on that atm.

Cheers... o7

 

[Chrystoph]

This is why you don't want anything that might engage your body clock.... faster, faster, faster.

another post from the I just wanna win as quickly as possible brigade.

Or, perhaps, you could look at it from the perspective of the employed, married populace that doesn't have 6 to 8 hours a day to devote to a game and actually wants to Enjoy what little time they can devote instead of logging in to another job that just happens to be in a fictional universe.

Comparing this discussion to writing provides some insight. When you have combat training and are capable of writing, you are all too able to write dreary, minutia oriented battles. Most people don't want to read them. They want just enough combat to get an understanding or a feel, then they only want big events.

To me, Elite should be similar; you shouldn't have to bog down in the trivialties. I have NO interest in the million and one routine tasks required to keep a ship running; I was a Damage Control Petty Officer in the US Navy. I know what those tasks are like, and it would not be engaging game play. Wandering around a space station as an implementation of "space legs" "for realism" will become a time sink within 10 events.

There was an old game called Starlancer where you did all of your character management in one place, then there was an animation to walk you to the mission briefing room. After the first three times, I hit the Escape key to jump straight to the room, then hit Escape again to skip the catapult launch animation. Both of them were worth watching A COUPLE OF TIMES, then they were time wasters.

I feel like the proposal would be more of the same.

 

[Skip Rockbounder]

It's always the same Chrystoph, when you have something easy you don't wanna let it go.
If the legs had always been part of the game we'd know no difference, we would walk down the loading ramp as the guy from unloading bay drove past us and started to unload the stuff we'd agreed on, a customs office would catch your eye and head you way, a couple of questions and he'd split or head up the ramp for a search... you may head over to the bar and be ignored by a local smuggler or told there's a way to get that bounty off your head... it would always have taken time

Instead though, you can sit looking at the same dumb*ss screen, press a Button and drop 244 tons of Gold and be gone in 15 seconds flat, and head off to the next quick exciting dollar or power up point, if that's engaging game play to you... you're welcome to it

BTW
Married.... Yup
Kids.... Yup
Work... Yup
Friends...Yup
Sport... Occasional participation

 

[KevinMillican]

I think the OP poses a valid question.
I have played games in the past that required me to leave my spaceship, enter other vehicles/buildings to find various things to allow me to complete the mission; Mercenary/Damocles spring to mind. I would probably enjoy these activities again, but I wonder how something like that might affect the whole atmosphere of ED. I also wonder how engaging this would be in the longer term.
If ED did go down this route, I suspect there would be calls to have personal combat, which might be fun for a while, but I'd hate to see Elite morph into just another 1st person shooter.
Then again, perhaps people want to explore stations a bit, hang out in the bar, chat to other players - possibly with avatars that simulate speech in realtime - would probably have that wow factor for a few hours, but later?....

When I saw the first demo of Star Citizen, the player had to go and get their flight helmet, stroll out to the ship hangar, locate their ship, board etc. Right away I thought "Nope - that's not for me" - I like the way I can go straight to the mission board, load up and off.

I'm not saying that I think space legs are a waste of time, but I would need convincing that these would transform the game in a positive way.

 

[Skip Rockbounder]

I think the OP poses a valid question.
I have played games in the past that required me to leave my spaceship, enter other vehicles/buildings to find various things to allow me to complete the mission; Mercenary/Damocles spring to mind. I would probably enjoy these activities again, but I wonder how something like that might affect the whole atmosphere of ED. I also wonder how engaging this would be in the longer term.
If ED did go down this route, I suspect there would be calls to have personal combat, which might be fun for a while, but I'd hate to see Elite morph into just another 1st person shooter.
Then again, perhaps people want to explore stations a bit, hang out in the bar, chat to other players - possibly with avatars that simulate speech in realtime - would probably have that wow factor for a few hours, but later?....

When I saw the first demo of Star Citizen, the player had to go and get their flight helmet, stroll out to the ship hangar, locate their ship, board etc. Right away I thought "Nope - that's not for me" - I like the way I can go straight to the mission board, load up and off.

I'm not saying that I think space legs are a waste of time, but I would need convincing that these would transform the game in a positive way.

If you focus on what you don't want (which hasn't happened) and can't imagine what you do want then I guess you're already in the 'Nay' ballpark

 

[Chrystoph]

It's always the same Chrystoph, when you have something easy you don't wanna let it go.

You are erroneously conflating easy with wasted time. I don't see value in having to spend 30 seconds maneuvering the toon to the missions office every time I want to SEE the missions. Over the course of a couple of months, that is going to consume hours of time to NO benefit.

If the legs had always been part of the game we'd know no difference, we would walk down the loading ramp as the guy from unloading bay drove past us and started to unload the stuff we'd agreed on, a customs office would catch your eye and head you way, a couple of questions and he'd split or head up the ramp for a search... you may head over to the bar and be ignored by a local smuggler or told there's a way to get that bounty off your head... it would always have taken time

If this had been the original gameplay, and Frontier had shown it as part of the gameplay, I wouldn't have bought the game.

Unless this is an option that can be turned off, I don't see a BENEFIT.

 

[Elliot Coleman]

You are erroneously conflating easy with wasted time. I don't see value in having to spend 30 seconds maneuvering the toon to the missions office every time I want to SEE the missions. Over the course of a couple of months, that is going to consume hours of time to NO benefit.

This is a sandbox "MMO". ALL of your time here is, technically, wasted. I see your ranks in your Inara sig...and while I'm sure you're striving for triple Elite, what's the benefit to actually achieving it? I play video games to experience what I can't experience in real life. If that means walking around a space station for 30 minutes trying to find somebody to do a job for, bring it on. The way you come across is as one of the "credits per hour" brigade, as if making billions in ED actually means something. When I game, I don't want bland menus and repeated loading screens. I want an epic, seamless experience.

 

[comdr0303]

Unless this is an option that can be turned off, I don't see a BENEFIT.

I agree on that! I don't engage in maybe 50% of what this game has to offer, because no interest in it...would i use legs, maybe if they are sexy lol, no serious i would try it out. I was not optimistic about horizons either, but i bought it and enjoy it alot. It's not perfect and there's alot to be done to make it great. If they make specelegs apart from the game, like horizons i would not buy it cause there's no need for it in my story and i sure don't wana loose time on just walking around if there's no game designed around it...and that means a better designed gameplay than we got on the surface mat-gathering that sucks big time. So they better think twice before adding legs.

 

[Kzak]

It's important to look at other space games that have tried their version of Spacelegs and not make the same mistakes. X: Rebirth comes to mind.

 

[ebbrell]

One thing I would love would be to infiltrate a thargoid base, and end up fighting the insects in a first person view.

 

[Skip Rockbounder]

You are erroneously conflating.... BENEFIT.

Well, using big words certainly impresses me... you must be right then!

 

[Chrystoph]

Well, using big words certainly impresses me... you must be right then!

Rather than insult me, try arguing your position. What is the benefit of having to walk from the ship to the person that represents the function every time? Where is the value added for this activity?

If you are going to argue that it is immersive or that it gives you something to look at, then I am going to counter that I don't feel it is an effective use of my time.

Now, ebbrell is actually suggesting things of worth, infiltrations, combat, etc, something that has meaning.

This is a sandbox "MMO". ALL of your time here is, technically, wasted. I see your ranks in your Inara sig...and while I'm sure you're striving for triple Elite, what's the benefit to actually achieving it? I play video games to experience what I can't experience in real life. If that means walking around a space station for 30 minutes trying to find somebody to do a job for, bring it on. The way you come across is as one of the "credits per hour" brigade, as if making billions in ED actually means something. When I game, I don't want bland menus and repeated loading screens. I want an epic, seamless experience.

You are reading far too much of your own attitude onto me. I could give a tinker's damn less about credits as long as I have enough. I built the sig a long time ago, and, if you look at it, you'll see I reordered it to put Exploration first. I haven't gone out and fought NPCs in over a year, and the last time I traded was a CG that I wanted to support.

Since we're making assumptions, I think you're one of those people that looks for ways to dispense with the other party, and, when you cannot win the argument, you make ad hominem attacks so that you can dispose of them. You might as well throw out my argument by saying, He uses an anime portrait!

 

[Toumal]

I think the same can be said about planetary landings really. Was FD completely successful in giving us stuff to do on surfaces? Not really. Would I want to turn back the clock and *not* have planetary landings? Absolutely not, I'm glad it's in the game because while there isn't too much stuff to do that's a lot of fun, they did extend the possibilities on the ground over time.

I'd figure that the first thing to do on legs would be walking around your own ship, followed by docking and entering other ships. You could repair your own ship in deep space without a repair module for example. That way you'd still have the automatic repair module as an option, but you could also repair on your own as an explorer, it would just take time and effort. In fact, manual ship repair and boarding other ships would be quite useful.

 

[Denneb]

I personally would gladly PAY for a space legs expansion, even if it was released as a "flavor" paid content, and even if it only let me walk around my ship's corridors and nowhere else.
As Toumal said, most things start humble and their true potential comes with time. And as for the space legs huge potential, pls see other games of the genre. To be honest, this is basic stuff for modern games. But, as I said, this is just me, and I would pay just for the added immersion and the truse sense of the games' immense scale, which you can not ever appreciate from the pilot's seat.

 

[M00ka]

From what I have read here on the forums over the years, this is what I would expect if/when Space Legs finally drops: For the first couple of weeks everyone will be wandering around their ship, the station, on the surface of a plane. After that initial 'gee wiz' phase, the main use of space legs will be for taking selfies of yourself in front of your ship.

 

[Skip Rockbounder]

Rather than insult me, try arguing your position. What is the benefit of having to walk from the ship to the person that represents the function every time? Where is the value added for this activity?

If you are going to argue that it is immersive or that it gives you something to look at, then I am going to counter that I don't feel it is an effective use of my time.

Now, ebbrell is actually suggesting things of worth, infiltrations, combat, etc, something that has meaning.



You are reading far too much of your own attitude onto me. I could give a tinker's damn less about credits as long as I have enough. I built the sig a long time ago, and, if you look at it, you'll see I reordered it to put Exploration first. I haven't gone out and fought NPCs in over a year, and the last time I traded was a CG that I wanted to support.

Since we're making assumptions, I think you're one of those people that looks for ways to dispense with the other party, and, when you cannot win the argument, you make ad hominem attacks so that you can dispose of them. You might as well throw out my argument by saying, He uses an anime portrait!

Your not liking something or feeling it's not immersive is entirely down to what's happening in your mind and doesn't in the least make what you say true, immersion is something that is different in every person.

Had you not bought the game because you'd seen a video of a guy walking down the ramp wouldn't have made any difference to me at all,
I can only say that as the game progresses I hope to be able to enjoy it longer and get more immersion from it, something I can't do in real life for instance...
I will never go into space and walk around a space ship, or sit in a bar looking out at a massive star, or find out just what's behind that big ol' door behind my pilot chair (I have no wish to partake in a space battle as I'd most likely die and that for me would be a bad thing, and I have no interest in the terrorism of Warfare anyway) there are a thousand other things that could be added to the game with Legs (though I'm not going to re-cap them here as Space Legs has many threads and runs hundreds of pages) so a bit of space immersion in the form of a video game goes a long way, you can argue as much as you like about running through your petty menus being better... but you're wrong.

 

[Chrystoph]

Ah, yes, changing your argument to "win", and being selective about what I said as well.

I have no problem with "space legs" as Content, but what you are talking about isn't content, it is merely a time sink.

FPS for missions, for actual exploration, etc would be nice. FPS to walk to the menu while looking at random station architecture detracts from the game play in the long term because you won't keep doing the "ooh and ahhh" about the pretty. That means that you are asking for a huge chunk of dev time for a throw away effect that I believe will eventually become something most people do not want.

If you don't believe me, and you obviously don't, try looking at the Fallout series. The distance travel merely shows your dot moving on the map until you either arrive or have a random encounter. You don't spend a half an hour trodding through the desert going, Ooooh, a new cactus!

Even most of the MMOs have teleport/travel mechanisms in place to avoid having to slog your way through the terrain.

That said, if Frontier wants to implement this, I ask for an option to turn it off because I perceive it as wasted time.

 

[comdr0303]

From what I have read here on the forums over the years, this is what I would expect if/when Space Legs finally drops: For the first couple of weeks everyone will be wandering around their ship, the station, on the surface of a plane.
After that initial 'gee wiz' phase, the main use of space legs will be for taking selfies of yourself in front of your ship.

...And then the "please add this and change that...the color of our suits and we need materials to hold in our hands (that actually work, need to do that faster, cheaper, was attacked while out of my ship ect.
While all the important stuff just not get done.
Planetary landings and what's next, fighting a war on the ground, killing wildlife, destroying that planet like we do on earth? No thanks, space is fine to me...just give us more to do on the astroids & moons, let us build worlds there in space as it is a SPACE game after all.

 

[Dad Rock]

I think the gameplay features are already there, to some extent, and we might see Space Legs enriching the existing missions. For example, there are missions to "liberate" cargo from specific targets. Now, at present, you have to use cargo limpets to steal the cargo, but if you pay attention to the NPC messages, one of these is "any attempts to board us will be resisted" - or something to that effect.

Putting on a speculative cap, there may be data points on surface installations, within outposts, tourist spots, or mega-ships that would need you to infiltrate the ship and scan these manually. The same can be said for Thargoid installations and Guardian outposts, or exploring derelict ships in a post-conflict USS where you can find rare blueprints.

I doubt very much Frontier will add an "Eve Online"-style of space legs with nothing for Commanders to do. Nor do I think it'll undermine existing gameplay. This game is primarily about pilots in space ("I'm a pilot, always have been" was the key phrase in the chapter 3 trailer), and I think any future implementation of Space Legs will be an expansion on that concept rather than a replacement.

o7

 

[JustJon]

Space legs could be fun....

I imagine if they had been in from the start - and you had to walk 30 seconds to get to the mission board there would have been a lot of people asking ED why they could not simply call up some sort of panel within the ship to view and select the missions.....

For any missions which require us to go do something by walking - how long would it be before going down the same generic corridors to interact with the same generic datapoint whilst avoiding generic NPC's became real boring.

However Elite is to an extent always going to be a bit of a grind - because it does try to capture what it would really be like to own a ship and be able to travel around space, trading, mining and fighting and discovering things - would adding legs to that add or remove anything?

I have nothing against space legs however my concern would be - as people keep saying - what is the benefit.