Spacelegs and locomotion mechanics in VR

[horizone]

Disclaimer: This post sort-of assumes that the next season will be all about first-person mode. With moving around in our ships as the first 3.0 release, later expanding into hangars, extravehicular activity, moving around in stations, outposts and planetary bases. All adding gameplay with each expansion, meeting characters and other players in person. If you want to disagree with this assumption, please do so silently, because the topic I want to discuss is first-person movement in VR for (whenever or if it comes to) Elite.

Elite has had a real advantage in that it has been VR-ready from the start. This game has been optimal for early-VR since you have been confined to your pilot seat = no locomotion problems.

All this is about to change when/if we get first-person mode (let's assume we are going to get it for sake of argument). Now ofcourse, I don't know if Frontier is implementing complete freedom of movement. My hope is however, that I can explore every nook and cranny of my ship and other places.

First person on a screen is no problem, we all know the WASD/mouse combo or movement by game controller. But how are Frontier planning to implement first-person in VR?

I would like to see as many options for movement in VR as possible, even though some have been known to cause VR-sickness:

Keyboard/Mouse
Xbox controller
Joystick/HOTAS
Vive controllers/Oculus touch

Keyboard/Mouse and Joystick/HOTAS will have you remain seated ofcourse, while game controller or Vive/Touch motion controllers will allow you to stand up in VR physically.

Now, if I want to play Elite standing up in first-person, there is the question of roomscale movement. The areas we will be able to move around in is surely larger than our VR playspaces. Some only have a square meter next to their computer desk.

Many games have solved this with teleportation options, you point to where you want to go and press a button to teleport there. That is fine for non combat situations but since Elite is multiplayer I guess teleportation will not always be optimal. It might work if you have to wait for the avatar to move there before being teleported (you can see an example of this in the video below).

I would like to see support for some of the smart solutions in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0YxzgQG2-E

I especially like this one where you run in place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO_JGtub5T8

It is not required to put a controller in your belt, the developer of this solution has shown in the latest version you only need to hold the controllers to your hip and run in place.
Question here is how do you run and fire a two-hand weapon at the same time. I'm thinking the bobbing motion that triggers movement also could be read from your headset position.

I tried it on my Vive and it worked very well for me. What do you all think is the best solution and which solution(s) would you like to see in Elite for first-person?

 

[jojon]

I really, really want Valve, Oculus, and others, to get together and define, and create the first implementation of-, and recommend the use of, an open source, plugin-based framework, that allows users to choose and configure the locomotion method to use themselves, whilst developers only need to include this external dll once, after which their title will work with every current and future method to get around, as long as it's implemented as a plugin.

Walking-in-place as a supplement to room-scale VR is what I am favouring at the moment, but it is going to take tracked feet, and some smart matching algorithms that better syncs things to your motion, with less abstraction than the RIPmotion prototypes to date.

(EDIT2: RIPmotion, as it stood last time I checked, makes sure the controller AND the HMD are bobbing, more-or-less in unison, for it to register as running, and this is for good disambiguation reasons. A controller is used, because one fundamental tenet, is that the method must allow you to walk in one direction, and look in another (...and aim in a third); The controller at the hip determines the former.)

You will also want to take actions to minimise the sort of unreasonable snagging onto geometry that we have gotten used to in games, so that you don't get too many unexpected and nauseating sudden stops, whilst still being prevented from walking through walls. As a rough example; Maybe if you try to squeeze through a doorway, where the door stands ajar - either have the avatar's body push the door open, or automatically turn its torso (but not head), to edge through, depending on things like your entry angle and velocity (EDIT: ...and relative masses), and whether the the door blade is free to swing. (EDIT3: Also; No physics colliders in the form of large right-angle boxes that extend several feet from your character - maybe they could be kept as logic flags to inform your character behaviour engine, though)

Another do-the-best-we-can-with-what-we-have-so-far method, that you may be interested in checking out, is checking for reciprocating arm movements, as if you were walking or running. Best for when you are empty-handed, but does allow for some limited use of objects in your hands whilst moving about. http://electricnightowl.com/armswinger-rc2/

 

[CylonSurfer]

Normal locomotion all the way for me. I'm not a fan of those those other "solutions" they are immersion breaking, in particular teleportation, I cannot abide it. If implemented I hope any such comfort mode would remain optional allowing people who can, to enjoy the core experience and to be unhindered by such modes. Much like how the SRV has VR comfort options...

I appreciate the requirement for comfort Mode when dealing with first person locomotion in VR but the cost of forcing them on players who do not need them is much too high.

 

[horizone]

@jojon: Very interesting stuff, thanks for sharing and thanks for the armswinger link. I just tried it and see great potential!

@CylonSurfer: I agree completely, teleportation must not be forced. At the same time we don't want the "normal" mode to be too nauseating.

 

[Kevris]

Personally - I'm hoping that we get a good Omni-directional treadmill. I have my eyes on the Virtuix Omni, and the KatWalk devices, but I'm holding off on picking one up for a few more months.

 

[Stange]

I'd rather just drive my character with a dual analog controller, honestly, rather than use all this treadmill/room scale/walk in place/teleport stuff.

Close in the sides of the hmd when taking hard turns and awkward strafes, always keep the view level with the real world horizon, keep some kind of heads up display present so the eye always has a reference point, avoid shaking and moving the players view.

I should be able to do everything I need seated in the real world, and I should be able to seamlessly move between the ship, SRV, and "space legs" with my Xbox controller.

The game is a joy seated, and now that the Xbox chatpad is working again I can fully type and pilot my ship/srv with elegance. I just want to slip on my hmd, have my controller in hand, and be able to play all roles with this one device.

 

[CylonSurfer]

@CylonSurfer: I agree completely, teleportation must not be forced. At the same time we don't want the "normal" mode to be too nauseating.

I firmly believe in having options for those that need them but in honesty first person locomotion using a pad isn't nauseating for many. FDEV just need to add a few comfort settings for the small minority which are unable to overcome VR sickness. 4% based on one study I read.

One option I would like to see would be decoupled head and body movement, I personally dislike camera face - walk where you look.

 

[davedf]

Considering there is no gravity on the ships and lots of grab handles around the bridge, I would like to see some use of the vive motion controllers [the oculus controllers will be out as well by the time this happens] to grab and move in a weightless environment. Also maybe using small jets on the suit to manoeuvre.

Other games do the walking around FPS, I would like ED to do something a bit different.

 

[CylonSurfer]

Considering there is no gravity on the ships and lots of grab handles around the bridge, I would like to see some use of the vive motion controllers [the oculus controllers will be out as well by the time this happens] to grab and move in a weightless environment. Also maybe using small jets on the suit to manoeuvre.

Other games do the walking around FPS, I would like ED to do something a bit different.

Something like the controls / locomotion used in ADR1FT would work for that idea. Only issue I see if that in the Elite universe they use mag boots to combat the lack of gravity, so normal(ish) walking. I like the gravity handles in the Gundam UC universe - essentially a system of handles which run and move the lengths of corridors inside the ships, the handles running in opposing directions on each side of the corridor pulling users from a to b or b to a.

 

[vizvayu]

I think teleportation and use of the vive controllers MUST be an option. Of course using keyboard and mouse, or even a gamepad should be optional too, because not everyone has a Vive.
And I hope they don't make another Counter Strike in space. Not insanely fast running speeds nor always-run options.

 

[CylonSurfer]

Why may I ask is teleportation at must with Vive controllers? They work perfectly fine with traditional locomotion methods via the controllers track pad. I'm not sure how teleportation would work in a multilayer environment played with non teleportation players, surely your screen would have to remain black while the other player watched your in game avatar move to where you magically appear? Would that not leave you vulnerable to being shot? If that didn't happen it would a) break immersion for other players and b) give you a huge advantage of being imune to gun fire unless stationary.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I would go for one of these as you can move and sit to use your Hotas as well.

http://cyberith.com/product/

 

[TorTorden_VR]

I would go for one of these as you can move and sit to use your Hotas as well.

http://cyberith.com/product/

Its a nice idea. But it is just too much strapping, in its a step too far from paractical .

And the seated use is basicallh just having you suspended from mountaineering harness and these are mostly only used as safety equipmemt. Not meant to take weight for extended periods since they tend to cut off circulation when they do.
And that's with relatively fit, mountain climbers not, 110kg nerds like myself.

 

[shadragon]

Spacelegs is a great concept, but it's how it will work that concerns me. People are complaining supercruise takes too long, so having to walk around one of the spinning rings of a station to get to an objective will drive people nuts.

Regardless of legs, the focus should stay on the ships until we have enough game content to justify walking around. Even then, I want to load straight into my ship on game start and not a bunk bed somewhere deep inside a station.

 

[horizone]

Spacelegs is a great concept, but it's how it will work that concerns me. People are complaining supercruise takes too long, so having to walk around one of the spinning rings of a station to get to an objective will drive people nuts.

Regardless of legs, the focus should stay on the ships until we have enough game content to justify walking around. Even then, I want to load straight into my ship on game start and not a bunk bed somewhere deep inside a station.

Fair concern. A simple transit system on large stations will probably solve this. I think Frontier aims to isolate parts of the game for each season. So if players are fully satisfied with staying on their ship, they could keep playing it that way - not even getting the expansion that would allow you to leave your ship. It's just my guess of course that walkabout will be walled off by expansion access. But btw, what's your prefered way of moving about in VR?

 

[Captain N]

Teleportation is probably a no go because they're still making this game primarily for desktop and I don't think CMDR's blinking around willy nilly would go down too well with most people playing the game. FD isn't going to compromise the game experience for most people because of a small minority who use VR I think.

I do hope they will support roomscale and motion controllers, with trackpad motion something like how Windlands or Vivecraft do it. Anything less is pretty much a recipe for a half-baked and sad VR experience.

Then again not sure how far they will go to accommodate VR users. Adding VR to the base game was relatively simple since they could just bolt it on top of the already existing headlook mechanics, but to make FPS type gameplay work well in VR and meet the expectations already set by other games out there you need much more and I'm not talking about teleportation.

Being spoiled by the likes of Raw Data, Space Pirate Trainer etc. I think certain basics are just non-negotiable fundamentals for VR FPS type games:

-Roomscale movement, with 360° headtracking for rotation. This is the most natural and immersive type of movement in VR bar none. Turning is turning, walking is walking. Crouching and going prone are done by physically doing those things. Moving outside the roomscale area would have to be done with trackpad locomotion, the direction either determined by head (more comfortable for some) or controller (my preference, but should be an option probably)

-Motion controller based aiming. This is about 1000x more realistic than pointing and clicking using a mouse. Actual 3D aiming through iron sights and scopes, holo, laser and any other type sights these future space guns may have.

Nice to have features which I think are optional, and probably won't happen as they would add nothing to desktop users:

-Physical vest / harness / belt type inventory where your weapons and other equipment actually hang from the avatar. XLR has a nice example of this. In that game, if you pick for example the soldier class, you have a pistol and an assault rifle hanging from your torso in front of you and you switch weapons just by picking them up with your controllers. You have additional utility items attached to your waistbelt, such as magazines, grenades, binoculars etc.

-Manual reloading. This has already pretty much become a standard in VR shooters. Some, like Raw Data have simplified reloading where you just bring the magazine near your gun which triggers the automatic reload animation. Some have you actually do stuff like remove the old magazine first, replace it with a new one and then pull the lever to feed the first round into the chamber before you can fire. Futuristic lazer guns would use different mechanics I reckon.

-Physics objects you could pick up and toss around with your hands. Juggle some rocks on the surface of a moon. Throw something at another CMDR's helmet to draw their attention! Or cause their gruesome death depending on the weight of the object in question.

 

[CylonSurfer]

Teleportation is probably a no go because they're still making this game primarily for desktop and I don't think CMDR's blinking around willy nilly would go down too well with most people playing the game. FD isn't going to compromise the game experience for most people because of a small minority who use VR I think.

I do hope they will support roomscale and motion controllers, with trackpad motion something like how Windlands or Vivecraft do it. Anything less is pretty much a recipe for a half-baked and sad VR experience.

Then again not sure how far they will go to accommodate VR users. Adding VR to the base game was relatively simple since they could just bolt it on top of the already existing headlook mechanics, but to make FPS type gameplay work well in VR and meet the expectations already set by other games out there you need much more and I'm not talking about teleportation.

Being spoiled by the likes of Raw Data, Space Pirate Trainer etc. I think certain basics are just non-negotiable fundamentals for VR FPS type games:

-Roomscale movement, with 360° headtracking for rotation. This is the most natural and immersive type of movement in VR bar none. Turning is turning, walking is walking. Crouching and going prone are done by physically doing those things. Moving outside the roomscale area would have to be done with trackpad locomotion, the direction either determined by head (more comfortable for some) or controller (my preference, but should be an option probably)

-Motion controller based aiming. This is about 1000x more realistic than pointing and clicking using a mouse. Actual 3D aiming through iron sights and scopes, holo, laser and any other type sights these future space guns may have.

Nice to have features which I think are optional, and probably won't happen as they would add nothing to desktop users:

-Physical vest / harness / belt type inventory where your weapons and other equipment actually hang from the avatar. XLR has a nice example of this. In that game, if you pick for example the soldier class, you have a pistol and an assault rifle hanging from your torso in front of you and you switch weapons just by picking them up with your controllers. You have additional utility items attached to your waistbelt, such as magazines, grenades, binoculars etc.

-Manual reloading. This has already pretty much become a standard in VR shooters. Some, like Raw Data have simplified reloading where you just bring the magazine near your gun which triggers the automatic reload animation. Some have you actually do stuff like remove the old magazine first, replace it with a new one and then pull the lever to feed the first round into the chamber before you can fire. Futuristic lazer guns would use different mechanics I reckon.

-Physics objects you could pick up and toss around with your hands. Juggle some rocks on the surface of a moon. Throw something at another CMDR's helmet to draw their attention! Or cause their gruesome death depending on the weight of the object in question.

But walking to the boundaries of your play space then needing to walk back in order to then teleport forward in order to be able to continue walking forward is not natural at all. It's the elephant in the room when it comes to roomscale.

Room scale combined with more traditional locomotion is where it's at in my opinion.

 

[Captain N]

You get used to it and it's still more natural than using a gamepad, sitting down while pretending to walk upright. It will continue to be the best method until something better comes up.

And you can do roomscale without teleportation (just locomotion using the trackpad)

 

[TorTorden_VR]

Reloading.

I think they should go all h3vr and have us manually take each and every single bullet out of the box.
Feed into the clip, and then load the clip....

ED is a desk game.
Going room play for space legs would just lock it to the vive.

Don't tell me the oculus can do room play buy adding cameras.
I own both HMD'S. No matter how much oculus owners want to think it is room play capable. It just isn't. Give up already.

Game pad/hotas is probably best bet and most flexible for any player. Vr or not.

But I think it's moot anyways. Fps mode is wanted by many, but I honestly don't see how it really benefit the game in any real way. So I don't really think we will get them.

What I do suspect is more vehicles.
Seriously. Walking? Or high speed hover bikes?

 

[Captain N]

I don't think enabling roomscale would lock out desktop players at all, as with trackpad movement it would be entirely optional anyway.

Things like crouching and going prone should be enabled through key bindings anyway I believe - like many here I'm more of a fan of the slower, more realistic ArmA / Red Orchestra type approach than Unreal Tournament in space.