Star Citizen Discussion Thread v11

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I fully agree with all the P2W suggestions...like I said, I agree with both camps to a greater or lesser degree. I'll add once again that I'm a solo player with no org background or aspirations...me in my Caterpillar aren't going to trouble a fleet of them bandied around by mid to higher level orgs in their imaginary version of Star Citizen, it's not like they can blockade anywhere or control an area...nor will they be able to in any perceivable future iteration of SC, that's just Eve players imagining and hoping it'll be like that.

Sure on the 'won't trouble the big boys' thing, I was just suggesting that you would likely boss the noobs & non-ship-purchasers. Just on the grounds of finite / 'dynamic' resources etc. You'll be able to exploit booms & mop up the goods, leaving them with the crumbs etc. (On the presumption all those org Hulls don't do it first, if they ever make it in ;))

Like most folks banging around in the PU trying to deal with the plethora of game breaking bugs, we're mostly solo players doing our own thing in entirely our own way grinding out a few aUEC for ship upgrades and silly cosmetic armour for our avatars...

I don't want to belabour it, but there is a 'pay to enjoy' aspect to having the more advanced ships, in terms of being able to get back on your feet quickly etc. Get that gaudy armour in a less painful timeframe, after a crash has cruelly robbed you. (Hell, even get back to the place you were at more quickly ;))

But sure, I get that the preoccupation can mainly just be pootling about do your own thing.
 
I used to love fresh starts for games, especially MMOs. Everybody was poor, everybody was weak and the whole game was a mystery for the player to explore and conquer. There is a reason why classic WoW was so highly anticipated and asked for a long time in advance. Reality looks different and the nostalgic glasses tend to paint stuff prettier then it was. I never forgot the hardship of an unrefined system, the LACK of quality of life changes that we all got used to in a flash because they simply made sense. But I also remember the feeling of excitement, the genuine puzzlement and wonder I had back when I first started playing WoW.....along with thousands of others.

And it was a joy playing back then. People were generally friendly, supportive and helping each other out. Soloing wasnt all that easy if you werent a rogue, mage or warlock. Many people struggled with outdoor questing, full groups wandered the lands to complete fetch quests together and dungeons were looked at in terror and angst. Raids even whispered as myth only. In short....it was tough....and the community made it great. Found a lot of new friends and met people I still game with to this day.

And that "feeling" is gone forever. It wont ever come back. I tried jumping games when WoW started to feel boring but it was already too late. Because I was an experienced MMO player by then expecting and assuming certain standards I knew from WoW. The wonder and excitement was therefore always short-lived. All those WoW-killers were hyped up disappointments. Many of them prevailed and carved out their own spot to this day but the wonder and feeling I got from starting WoW....unnmatched to this day. Remember the hopes of a new and exciting game you are waiting for? Yes, been there, done that. In the end all the great games I was waiting restlessly for and which I thought would make me a small kid again....collecting dust in my library. Great games...no doubt. But you enjoy them for a time and move on to the next big thing. I dont even fool myswelf anymore that it ll be any different. So I wonder about these people who think Star Citizen will replace all other games and will become the only game you ever want and need to play anymore. They will play it....even ejoy it and a year later it ll be a forgotten phenomena, replaced by something new. Seriously...am I just the adult in this scenario or am I a hater because I say it like it is?

So there are a couple of disadvantages to be had for being a veteran along with all the perks. I envy freshlings picking up a game for the very first time and being honestly amazed and awestruck falling in love. For me its more like coming back to a well-known and trusted friend. I know what makes him tick and what to do in order to receive certain reactions but it lacks real excitement.

DLCs were supposed to keep old games fresh by adding new content and changing the foundation. And it worked for a time as well. Burning crusade and Wrath of the Lich King are my all-time favorite expansions reinvoking true amazement but that has changed as well especially as those two were hitting like a bomb. You knew they were coming but they just released without prior insight. Later DLCs were hyped up and reported on by dedicated streamers for months on end as a means to keep old players around for as long as possible. When a new expansion became available to the public there wasnt really anything mysterious left. Streamers and public testers have showcased and investigated everythng possible. Guilds usually recruited these people and started raiding new content the very same day. Everybody who had a passing interest in the game already knew everything there was to know. The best path, the best gear, where to find it. New dungeons and bosses and more importingly......guides on how to beat em.

We were explorers and we have become passengers. Sure doing something yourself provides a feeling of your own but its still only copying stuff you saw or read beforehand. Are games that dont take you on the hand and explain everything really so out of fashion? They used to be celebrated as "real games" a couple decades ago were you had to show dedication and persistence and also be smart about how you do things in order to succeed and when you finally did...you sat there with a feeling of accomplishment and pride. Today...such games are ripped apart and downvoted because they dont provide easy achievements and the average gamer is blipping lazy.

So Star Citizen...lets take a look with what I wrote so far in mind. Like an iceberg a lot of Star Citizen is unseen, hidden away and only a small part of the game can be accessed and played. That part is well known and documented by a throng of backers for years by now. The game has changed, switched its appearance but its been basically the same old same old since 2015. A new ship or a new announcement doesnt change the actual experience. You can be hooked when you log in and immerse yourself in the space legs and thats actually what we read often these days when a new backer gets into the project. They describe true amazement and feeling great but for them its just the first time. I doubt very much that after another 2 years and thousands of identical log-ins they will have the same impression.

Realistically, what new stuff can Star Citizen possibly provide on a release? We all know about the long looong list of things they have to do but we also know that the current PU also is the MVP and could be released as is tomorrow. CIG is working hard on performance optimization so everything you know already just working smoother and more reliable. Thats it? Nothing new? If you consider classes or exploration then we have to add a few more months/years to the possible release date because none of these things is even started or implemented in a basic fashion so far and its hard to see CIG suddenly picking up the pace. Worse....even IF CIG would start working on these things with the way this project is run every new thing will be introduced over the course of months and years.....a timeframe where everything will turn "old" quickly. There are NDAs but they are not honored, backers who keep this project alive also bought the right to get a peek into its development.

And because that development is taking so long this will to support actually robs them of the potential wonder and feeling of excitement they might possibly have on release. When Star Citizen goes gold I imagine Mole logging in for the first time LIVE but its going to be like coming back to a trusted friend. He ll know where to go, what to do, how to act, will have his strategy mapped out. There will be next to zero surprise or unknown for him to experience. And he wont even have to start at the first step because his previous purchases allow him to skip the "tedious" grind and save a few hours.

Other companies offer alpha and beta sessions in order to stress test or judge community reactions. I was particpating in the Division 2 beta and it was like playing a finished game. You had a few placeholders and cutscenes were skipped. Some of the skills didnt work but overall what you were able to access was allowing you to judge the foundation and the gameplay features. And Massive Entertainment actually was asking for your feedback afterwards. Then they went silent for months. Time in which they added all the stuff we didnt know. The map, the side missions, the storyline, the refined skill system and much much more. Even tho I participated in the beta twice starting to play Division 2 was like playing it for the very first time. Everything was different and there was suddenly so much stuff to see and experience compared to the beta. And most companies I know of do it like this. They keep most of the game hidden and only allow you a glimpse whenever they need your help and even then you are usually gagged with an NDA to avoid spoilers and loss or revenue.

Now Star Citizen....how much do you think they hold back? Some make the assumption that CIG works like the other big dogs in the industry so that might explain the fantasies about secret builds and databases bursting with content. But even if thats true that means that CIG has no idea how to access it or put it into the game because from where I m standing it looks like CIG has trouble with basic stuff...in year 8 of its development. Having all the content ready at your fingertips would be a colossal waste if you dont even know yet how to put it in or if its even going to be possible once you find a solution to the blockers because the foundation isnt even done.

Personally...I think that the Star Citizen we can see now....is all they got. Thats everything. Maybe 5% and a few touches or pixels will be different but there wont be any surprises or new things when it goes live. CIG has gone radio silent for months on end in the past and it always created this underlying expectation that somthing was going to happen, something big. Gamechanger. And then they emerge with something trivial or stuff that makes you think they must be joking. ALL THOSE WEEKS AND MONTHS FOR THIS???? You start to wonder what they did in all that time. And your initial impression that Chris Roberts is a genius and knows what hes doing along with all the crack coders starts to change while you observe them having problems with basic stuff (delta patcher etc) and (this might ve been the most damaging thing in SCs history) Chris Roberts playing his own game.

So all the people who are pro-SC....you already have lost half the "battle". Star Citizen might succeed but even that is not guaranteed but even if it does....you ll most likely just play for a few short months then start looking for something new. Because you know it already and worse, you know all its shortcomings so of CIG doesnt pull off a wonder and fixes all the problems you have issues with.....you ll probably stop waiting in the long run.

This might be the reason why the industry at large has pretty much stopped reporting on Star Citizen. Theres nothing new to report. Nothing new coming up that might change the version we all already know. The rest of the world is waiting on CIG to come true on what they sold. And it looks more and more gloomy when you consider the new upcoming titles and advances in gaming in general. Star Citizen is in "early days" right now but it already looks like an old dress. CIG seems to work full tilt in order to keep its visual appeal up-to-snuff so we have 3.0 and now weather tech 4.0 but those are not reviolutionary....they are the companies best effort to try to keep up. CIG has stopped leading the pack a long time ago. Even the temporary fixes like 3.0 (which they failed to utilize) and weather4.0 are at best BASIC ITERATIONS and we are all waiting for them to implement these things as standard across the PU. Already a big "if".

In this regard Star Citizen truly is "transparent" in its development. There really are no surprises left. We know what it is, we know what it can do.....we all wait for CIG to come true on their promises and announcements because what we can see right now isnt it. And when I watch SC devs struggling through interviews and CR losing himself in tantrums over simple questions I wonder if they ever will be able to make the transition. They seem to be busy trying to stay in sight of the rest of the contenders. If you dismiss obvious facts and red flags then yes....its possible to still see Star Citizen as an amazing new game that will change the video game landscape.

Thats actually what we discuss in here. How realistic is SC now after 7 years of observed development. Seeing what the developers can do with the trust and the money given to them. We constantly compare what we learn with new games and also old ones. The thing with Star Citizen is that the more it developed and progressed...the more it showed how lacking the fundamental design is. More questions pop up all the time. New information sheds light on old uncertainties or tell a less then glorious story about management and community treatment.

Oldtimers stay adamant that "so many things have changed" or "you cant deny that Star Citizen is progressing" but truly....its just holding on to the last hope. Star Citizen certainly is not a good example on how to do things or how it should be. At its start it was often used to bash established evil publishers and laugh at them, cheering the new candidate on to show them how its done.

Little did we know back then that "showing them how its done" means keeping the backers waiting and paying through the nose while utilizing marketing tactics that would cripple any of the other "bad" industry giants. Somehow the backers left in this project convinced themselves that its their own free decision to keep tagging along and keep opening their wallet but try to takie a step back and see this through the eyes of somebody who doesnt know what SC is. That doesnt mean a clueless person. He/she could be an expert in gaming and having a deep understanding of project management and actual coding. And we dont consider the "dream" that every backer can relay in glorious detail. The actual results after 7 years of constant development. You think he/she will be impressed? You think that person will expect Star Citzen to go live anytime soon? Or will that neutral distanced evaluation immediately be dismissed as "hate" and the person itself muddied because people dont like what he/she has to say? I remember a few of these situations in the past ^^

Its great that most backers have fooled themselves into "being in for the long ride" and that "CIG can take as long as they need" because frankly....this is going to be a neverending spending spree or at least taking another decade and thinking anything else is just setting yourself up for disappointment.

Now please.....actual players and oldtimers. Am I really wrong? Are you not simply waiting for CIG to finally get done? Your enjoyment apart, is Star Citizen really such a vibrant and fresh take on an old topic? Because that topic is from 2012 you know. Am I missing somwething when I remember the first PU waking up in a bed on a space station and take a look today and see the exact same thing wondering if anything has changed at all? You have planets now you can fly to but all the connecting factors are questionable or ill-thought out (travel time, interdiction, landing sites, commute times, reclaim system etc). To me it looks like the same old thing from years ago only a few new clothes have changed. The technical details are of no real importance to me. Improving server stability or item meshing or whatever doesnt advance the overall state of the game. We are still waiting for a gigantic backlog of things to be implemented. Stuff that were advertised and paid for. These things are expected to be in on release. With the experience and knowledge you have about the project, how do you keep up your optimism? I dont really care about all the new faces declaring their love for SC. They dont know crap. They dont know how it was and they dont know what happened and what the real backers wait for.

Because honestly, without any snark.....to me....Star Citizen pretty much looks the exact same as it did years ago when Yamik was trying it out for the very first time. Details like new ships or mining dont really matter. There has been some polishing and some refinements. But where is the actual PROGRESS. Or do I simply not see it anymore because everything takes so long that changes dont register anymore (like a frog being dropped into heating water or a glacier skidding along)?

When people call me "hater" that really doesnt help me to see their side. It only creates tension and animosity. And when it comes to actually listing all the things....you know....facts that would back up their position I end up listening to all kinds of hyperbole, fantasy and misrepresentation. I ve been called "clueless" often but I like to think that I know pretty well what its all about....I m just not that impressed.
 
I like this exchange regarding a question presumably about when will TOW be ready:

CIG staff: Question removed for Rule #8: No "when" questions. All information we have about the intended release of any feature is represented on the Public Roadmap.

Patron: Its literally not on the roadmap.

:)

So basically CIG are saying they have no plans to release it! Just like Start Citizen!
 
Like Mike said, I started Elite during the Xbox GPP with 10,000 credits and a Cobra Mk3...I didn't see that as a pay to win advantage over someone who bought Elite later and got 1,000 credits and a sidewinder.

I guess the defining difference is you couldn't buy a Fed Corvette and spawn in on day one of launch blasting Cobras and Sideys as they left the station because as of now (and thus must be assumed at launch) there's no solo-mode.
 
CIG is simply doing what its defense force was doing for the last few years. Point at anything else and refuse to discuss whats really important. And when people call them out they even have the nerve to cite rules and refuse to answer the questions everybody is asking.

Possible bovine revolt coming up? Mole can tell us. What is required for a cow to go on a rampage dude? :D
 
Sure on the 'won't trouble the big boys' thing, I was just suggesting that you would likely boss the noobs & non-ship-purchasers. Just on the grounds of finite / 'dynamic' resources etc. You'll be able to exploit booms & mop up the goods, leaving them with the crumbs etc. (On the presumption all those org Hulls don't do it first, if they ever make it in ;))



I don't want to belabour it, but there is a 'pay to enjoy' aspect to having the more advanced ships, in terms of being able to get back on your feet quickly etc. Get that gaudy armour in a less painful timeframe, after a crash has cruelly robbed you. (Hell, even get back to the place you were at more quickly ;))

But sure, I get that the preoccupation can mainly just be pootling about do your own thing.
I get it and I fully agree...but there's an element similar to resetting your account in Elite there too from my point of view...having done it. Even reduced to a basic sidewinder and 1k credits, I can make it to an A rated Cobra3 in less than a day where as random new guy, without help simply can't do it. I know where and what to trade, what to do and I'm competent enough in a scrap to go farm bounties...I'd be the same in SC.

I'd have loved to have started out in SC with a stock ship and made my way up over the years I've played to where I am ship..and credit wise now. That was never going to happen given the money grabbing delaying tactics of Ci¬G. I've simply added ships I would have purchased in game with in game currency had there been any persistence...much the same as I did in Elite over the 5,500 hours I spent on 2 platforms playing it.

I don't see my few ships and relatively small amount of UEC as a starting advantage...more like where I would have been given the amount of time I've been involved in the PU, regardless of the actual $ spent on my side.

Playing the ship invested advantage over the new $50 backers doesn't work...I'd still have an advantage regardless.
 
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I guess the defining difference is you couldn't buy a Fed Corvette and spawn in on day one of launch blasting Cobras and Sideys as they left the station because as of now (and thus must be assumed at launch) there's no solo-mode.
That's true...but the folks buying the larger ships relative to the Corvette aren't even slightly interested in ganking n00bs. Generally in SC...n00bs gank other n00bs and just annoy the heck out of those of us who aren't until we kill them out of pure exasperation. Even in Elite, in a starter Sidewinder I could still go out and give the larger player ships a run for their money, I'd be no different in SC.
 
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FYI, this Friday's Star Citizen Live is about Theaters of War.


I like the questions asking about number of players, but this one caught my eye

How much of the data you collect from ToW do you think will be translatable to similar scenarios within the PU?

I can field this one.

Zero!

Because scenarios like this just won't often happen (if at all) outside groups that organize such events. Which idiots are going to stand around defending a location and wait for another equally sized group to come along, deploy, get in vehicles or on foot, and attack. If anything, if a group is defending a locaiton on the ground, and assuming another group knows and cares about this enough to attack, and assuming those defending are logged on and waiting at that location (rather than like, not being logged on and no defending, because who has time to stand around all day waiting to be attacked?) then the attackers will just come in with bombers and have lots of lulz as those on the ground are destroyed.

Relevant, especially at 1:00

 
That's true...but the folks buying the larger ships relative to the Corvette aren't even slightly interested in ganking n00bs. Generally in SC...n00bs gank other n00bs and just annoy the heck out of those of us who aren't. Even in Elite, in a starter Sidewinder I could still go out and give the larger player ships a run for their money, I'd be no different in SC.

Perhaps the ones you interact with are not interested in ganking noobs, but I promise some are. Others are probably waiting for SC to be something less than a broken tech demo before they invest in their Noob GnKr Mk II. As for the ones who are annoying you, imagine that but scale up the problem at launch, assuming it does, due to higher player numbers. Add in any exploits or glitches that spread on the internet through viral videos..

Regardless to all that, you did say it. Noobs gank other noobs. Some of those noobs are gankers themselves, but others probably just want to play the game and their experience is suffering because noob A bought a bigger better ship (maybe not a Idris but something that is undoubtably, absolutely punching above it's weight) to punch down below it's weight on a 300i flown by skippy-mc-noob who just wants to earn some xUAC and get a ship that isn't being blown up by gankers every five minutes.

Point is, that initial investment is giving you an advantage in SC that you wouldn't have gotten in ED at launch for the Cobra Package simply because everything is different from the game systems to ships to the balance to the flight model to the types of ships for sale to the number.... need I go on? It's not a valid comparison.
 
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I like the questions asking about number of players, but this one caught my eye



I can field this one.

Zero!

Because scenarios like this just won't often happen (if at all) outside groups that organize such events. Which idiots are going to stand around defending a location and wait for another equally sized group to come along, deploy, get in vehicles or on foot, and attack. If anything, if a group is defending a locaiton on the ground, and assuming another group knows and cares about this enough to attack, and assuming those defending are logged on and waiting at that location (rather than like, not being logged on and no defending, because who has time to stand around all day waiting to be attacked?) then the attackers will just come in with bombers and have lots of lulz as those on the ground are destroyed.

Relevant, especially at 1:00


That's what the AA vehicles are for.
 
Perhaps the ones you interact with are not interested in ganking noobs, but I promise some are. Others are probably waiting for SC to be something less than a broken tech demo before they invest in their Noob GnKr Mk II. As for the ones who are annoying you, imagine that but scale up the problem at launch, assuming it does, due to higher player numbers. Add in any exploits or glitches that spread on the internet through viral videos..

Regardless to all that, you did say it. Noobs gank other noobs. Some of those noobs are gankers themselves, but others probably just want to play the game and their experience is suffering because noob A bought a bigger better ship (maybe not a Idris but something that is undoubtably, absolutely punching above it's weight) to punch down below it's weight on a 300i flown by skippy-mc-noob who just wants to earn some xUAC and get a ship that isn't being blown up by gankers every five minutes.
Our own Sovapid is a ganker...as much as I dislike that term...an emergent content deliverer perhaps. He's a reasonably ship invested concierge backer who flies around in a little $75 pirate Gladius killing folks in big ships for the lulz...as do many others. The mere fact that the Smiling Dog Crew of Elite infamy are pretty invested in SC just waiting their time speaks volumes :)

Buying bigger ships, especially combat ships, is like painting a target on your back more than anything else...there's no one shot meta-build uberganker Federal Corvettes, Ferdie Clownshoes or Imperial Cutters in SC...gankers and griefers...there are many and they're all flying little $75 fighters, not $1,000 space chariots that require 5 other players manning turrets to even come close to killing a $50 Aurora...as much as I rarely see them. They're usually too busy lulzing at eachother on YouTube to even notice I'm there. ;)
 
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Our own Sovapid is a ganker...as much as I dislike that term...an emergent content deliverer perhaps. He's a reasonably ship invested concierge backer who flies around in a little $75 pirate Gladius killing folks in big ships for the lulz...as do many others. The mere fact that the Smiling Dog Crew of Elite infamy are pretty invested in SC just waiting their time speaks volumes :)

Buying bigger ships, especially combat ships, is like painting a target on your back more than anything else...there's no one shot meta-build uberganker Federal Corvettes, Ferdie Clownshoes or Imperial Cutters in SC...gankers and griefers...there are many and they're all flying little $75 fighters, not $400 space chariots...as much as I rarely see them.

Any paid-for advantage over my 300i is, nevertheless, an advantage that was paid for. This is at the core for the pay2win issue, not whether the most expensive ships are the best to get the job done or not.
 
Any paid-for advantage over my 300i is, nevertheless, an advantage that was paid for. This is at the core for the pay2win issue, not whether the most expensive ships are the best to get the job done or not.
You won't get any argument from me on that issue...I don't even have any fighters at all bar the freebie 7C Hornet I've never flown since 2.63. My paid for advantage is that I can earn the credits back a lot quicker than they can and also quicker than I can lose it should they decide I'm the target for tonight...barring 30k errors :D
 
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You won't get any argument from me on that issue...I don't even have any fighters at all bar the freebie 7C Hornet I've never flown since 2.63. My paid for advantage is that I can earn the credits back a lot quicker than they can and also quicker than I can lose it should they decide I'm the target for tonight...barring 30k errors :D

The question is, in the year 2525, if man is still alive, if woman has survived... will the 30k errors exist at launch?

Official poll is now, we except Yes, No, and Buy and Idris as acceptable answers.
 
Pootling about is at least 50% of what I do in SC and I really enjoy it.
and everything else aside that is exactly the kind of post which gives me hope as it is kind of how i play...... a few bounty hunts here, a few trade runs there, a quick mission, maybe do an hrs mining....................

DB / Frontier in general were (rightly imo) accused of being rather naive at how players would act in a game where mechanically they could do what they want........ DB expected largely huge cooperation etc........ I think the same could be said of Star Citizen only unlike ED (I am assuming for now the private network guide is nonsence and we are all going to be in the same pot) there will be no where to get away from it.

lets assume for a moment the people who fear this huge P2W mess are correct............ the amount of bad press it is going to generate will hit CIG hard imo..... if when the game launches it is as good as most of us want it to be, then - much like ED and their early high level backers - those players will soon become minority numbers, and besides CIG already have milked them possibly dry.

if they want to get money from the new blood, they wont be able to have all new players moaning about being ganked by huge ships on day 1 with no chance to escape...... Perhaps my head is in the sand (or some other dark place) but ultimately I think CIG are going to have to cater to the "carebears" or "dirty casuals" (I dont mean the term badly) because in terms of numbers I think they will soon become the majority post release and they will be the ones CIG will be hoping to sell credits to - but i am not talking 1000s to buy megaships here, imo once the game hits steam or what ever they will be looking at player spending much less money per head, the whales are already in the game now.......

I may be talking crap, we shall see.... I certainly am biased.......
 
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