Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

Surefoot · Dec 1, 2021

Agony_Aunt said:
Perhaps we can also turn the question around, what do CIG still need to do to have a game that could be released to the public? I mean, nostalgia, immersion, and whatnot are all well and good, but at the end of the day, CIG (in theory) need to make the product releasable at some point.

Maybe not an ED clone, to start with, as it would be pointless."Proc gen" is now completely forgotten and they are going the slow meticulous way. So lets go small then.
I'd definitely go for something closer to Jumpgate (as it had very few star systems too), lets say they flesh out the space trucking part (for example go for that system TonyZ showed off), add production chains (to make mining and trucking meaningful, they almost did it with refineries), add some PvE action with proc gen "hot spots" where you can shoot baddies and baddies shooting at you during missions, fix the glaring show stopper bugs, and fix the physics and core engine issues - then even with a 30 player server limit and 5 systems that would be something interesting. That would be a realistic, quick win scenario, with a good pass of polish it would at least make good use of existing assets. Add some quick win easy missions that dont need a complete overhaul of the game engine (data running, military pewpew, escorts..) and there you are you have a working space game. Forget about proper PvP for the time being as it's unrealistic for them to implement proper networking in the next decade, and current engine core loop will not permit proper multiplayer over internet without heavy desync.

Ronzer · Dec 1, 2021

LTNTDan said:
Try this, how much would you pay Frontier for a DLC that added the ability to land on planets like this:

No new features, ships or missions, 0 new gameplay, just the same exact Elite: Dangerous we have but with the ability to land on planets looking like that?
I'd bet if we post this question in the DD area some CMDR's would come forward with numbers around the hundreds and up to thousands.

There's something in accomplishing childhood dreams as an adults that goes above reasoning. Call it nostalgia or Peter Pan syndrome but as we get older we inevitably get cynical and bitter and these little things can have the ability to bring back some of the old youth joy.

o7.

PS- The little things matter
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/r5n35q

The way I see it is ED is still on a schedule, and they keep adding the stuff they promised. Hiccups, sure, but they're dealing with the actual "after it's released to public" hiccups, instead of not even releasing it yet, hiccups.
When/if SC releases, it'll most likely work even less than it does now. The stuff they do have working, like with Odyssey, will break. What happens then? They have to fix it. Take a stab at how long that may take? Take a guess at how much money they're going to take from people, to fix it...another 500 million? Much more! We wont be here to see it.
For a while in ED, even if it was said there'd be legs eventually, there was debate whether people even wanted it. Now it's there, they get the whole "not only do we want legs, but interiors" to which FDev rightly could be shaking their heads saying "so you want legs then." Oh, 6 years later, people do want the legs. Well, I'd say they've taken a step to appeasing those folks no?
SC didnt have that debate. The alure of their thing is literally being able to walk to your ship, and getting in and out of the cockpit seamlessly from day 1. Thats why I gave them $39.99 and that ability, and this thread, are worth that.
And for a few of us, the thing isn't whether it looks nice or you can walk around. It's that overall, SC is just a scam. Enjoy the stuff they have, but they sell it like there's going to be much more to come. Thats the scam. But there's a way out of scam territory. It's called releasing it.
If so many people are loving it, why not just release it, and say any further dollars are towards its future? They're beyond reviews effecting how much they'll make. I think alot of people would be fine with that. So err, what are they worried about?

MUTILADOR · Dec 1, 2021

I have been playing ED Odyssey for a year, but it was enough to test the Star Citizen alpha for a week, I will not return to ED until they create the interiors of the ship. the difference in experience despite some mistakes, is incredible. I hope ED flies in to direct the course of what the players ask for.

Ronzer · Dec 1, 2021

MUTILADOR said:
I have been playing ED Odyssey for a year, but it was enough to test the Star Citizen alpha for a week, I will not return to ED until they create the interiors of the ship. the difference in experience despite some mistakes, is incredible. I hope ED flies in to direct the course of what the players ask for.

Im not surprised to hear folks think it's been out for a year...coming up on 6 month, though maybe it's felt like a year.
So since the leg debate is over, I wonder what other debates SC can unearth. Well, for sure, fully atmospheric worlds to land on. Im fairly certain everyone wants that. Ah..how about ship sales and pay to win stuff? Maybe everyone is ok with that and a little more matured about those things?

Agony_Aunt · Dec 1, 2021

MUTILADOR said:
I hope ED flies in to direct the course of what the players ask for.

I believe you mean what you want right?

Players are a diverse group. I think most of the ED community would be happy to have ship interiors at some point, but a recent discussion on the Steam forums asking if FD said they could do ship interiors OR atmospheric planets next, which would people prefer, the answers were overwhelmingly in favour of atmospheric planets. Some saying they don't need interiors at all, others saying they can wait.

Not to say this is reflective of the whole community, but its a good indication.

Considering it took FD 3 years or so to make Odyssey, even if they added ship interiors next, we are probably looking at least 2 years for that, perhaps the same or more for full atmospheric planets should they choose to do that next. Or maybe FD have other ideas.

You see, unlike CIG, FD don't oversell and over promise, they work on something and then release it, then move onto the next thing. What they make isn't always the best or most well thought out, but they do deliver. CIG on the other hand promise the moon and deliver very little. FD understand that projects have to be constrained in scope, budget, resources, time. That's something CR never understood, c.f: Strike Commander, Freelancer, Star Citizen.

CIG have put their focus on planets and ship interiors, while a lot of other things have been neglected, especially actual working gameplay loops.

FD have put their focus on space, some planetary stuff now, legs being the latest addition, and gameplay loops, but have neglected ship interiors and atmospheric planets.

Naturally, those who care more about certain things will be drawn more to one or the other, and some people who are happy for what both games offer play both games.

The game that offers everything doesn't exist and will likely never exist (no matter how much money backers throw at CIG), and even if CIG could somehow implement everything they promised, there would be other things people wanted, because players are insatiable.

But if i were to put money on it, and gamble on which game in 10 years time would have most of what I want in a released form, then ED would get my money. FD might not be particularly fast (and neither are CIG, Helo games put both to shame), but they do release their work, and its available to be critiqued. SC remains for the moment a dream of what one day might be.

Agony_Aunt · Dec 1, 2021

Ronzer said:
Im not surprised to hear folks think it's been out for a year...coming up on 6 month, though maybe it's felt like a year.
So since the leg debate is over, I wonder what other debates SC can unearth. Well, for sure, fully atmospheric worlds to land on. Im fairly certain everyone wants that. Ah..how about ship sales and pay to win stuff? Maybe everyone is ok with that and a little more matured about those things?

Well, funding methods aside, there are 3 big items i would say that SC has over ED.

1) Ship interiors
2) Space EVA
3) Atmospheric planets

There used to be a 4th, which was first person, but Odyssey sorted that.

Meanwhile, ED has a ton of stuff that SC doesn't. However, whenever you bring those things up with the faithful they are either dismissive of it, say its not needed for SC, or have some other reason as to why its irrelevant. Or they start talking in future-as-present tense about things that don't exist yet, but because CR promised it they assume its coming. Which, at the end of the day, we could also do for ED, but that would be silly.

At the end of the day though all these comparisons are silly, and each game should be able to stand (or fall) on its own merits, although comparisons are natural since they have very similar overall goals. Both games offer different experiences. Which in a way is a good thing.

The main difference being, ED has been released for 7 years now and has been critiqued for those 7 years.
SC remains in alpha and when you try and critique it, you get told you can't, that its alpha, tier 0, but one day, it will all come together, and anyway "i'm having fun in it" so your criticism is invalid.

Agony_Aunt · Dec 1, 2021

9 years ago...

SQ42 in 2014 confirmed! PU in 2014-2015 confirmed.

No need to be scared that trying to do everything at once would lead to none of it getting done!

PS: That guy later invested in Shroud of the Avatar. Poor guy, didn't have much luck.

GuruNot · Dec 1, 2021

Agony_Aunt said:
9 years ago...

SQ42 in 2014 confirmed! PU in 2014-2015 confirmed.

No need to be scared that trying to do everything at once would lead to none of it getting done!

Those initial comments make an interesting read.

I am still left wondering why Squadron 42 does not exist after 9 years, it is a "normal" game after all. I appreciate the shared asset constraint but even so.

Viajero · Dec 1, 2021

Agony_Aunt said:
9 years ago...

SQ42 in 2014 confirmed! PU in 2014-2015 confirmed.

No need to be scared that trying to do everything at once would lead to none of it getting done!

PS: That guy later invested in Shroud of the Avatar. Poor guy, didn't have much luck.

That’s patently not true. We have rock solid physics. And clouds. Very nice clouds.

Agony_Aunt · Dec 1, 2021

Actually reading posts by Chris on reddit is a goldmine.

The action / battles in the last 3 Star Wars films felt emotionally disconnected to me as it felt like everyone fighting was either a robot or a clone - what did I care if any of them died?

Makes everyone in SC a clone

If you're a backer you'll be able to play the alpha of Squadron 42 before the full persistent universe goes live.

Well, technically speaking, he wasn't wrong!

you'll also be able to dial the persistent world to favor PvE over PvP. There will still be areas that will be PvP but in the safer / more neutral ones you'll end up fighting AI instead of real players (but you wont get as many ranking points)

PvP slider!

Sandbox / multiplayer puts you in a persistent universe with thousands of other players

Well... 50 is a number...

I always visualize the finished game in my head - I actually hate coding

The Code Whisperer hates coding! But what about the physics refactor?!

Viajero · Dec 1, 2021

MUTILADOR said:
I have been playing ED Odyssey for a year,

Well, that is interesting, because Odyssey released a bit over 6 months ago. You must have purchased an Elite Legatus alpha pack or something!

Agony_Aunt · Dec 1, 2021

Viajero said:
Well, that is interesting, because Odyssey released a bit over 6 months ago. You must have purchased an Elite Legatus alpha pack or something!

We've found CMDR Thrust from Bradford!

VR Golgot · Dec 1, 2021

Agony_Aunt said:
Actually reading posts by Chris on reddit is a goldmine.

thistle · Dec 1, 2021

MUTILADOR said:
I have been playing ED Odyssey for a year, but it was enough to test the Star Citizen alpha for a week, I will not return to ED until they create the interiors of the ship. the difference in experience despite some mistakes, is incredible. I hope ED flies in to direct the course of what the players ask for.

What have CIG been doing for the last 8 years? Creating ship interior, mostly, and not releasing a game.

What have Fdev been doing for the last 8 years? Creating ED, EDH, EDO, Planet Coaster, Planet Zoo, JWE, JWE2, and releasing them.

Would it be nice to have ED ship interiors? Sure. Would I want Fdev to spend their time the same way as CIG? Not a chance.

thistle · Dec 1, 2021

I guess what I'm really saying is this - the people who want ship interiors, what you REALLY want is ship interiors in addition to what you have in ED right now. An actual game.

If Fdev had created ship interiors we wouldn't have a game.

You can't always get what you want, not all of it, at once.

Surefoot · Dec 1, 2021

thistle said:
If Fdev had created ship interiors we wouldn't have a game.

You can't always get what you want, not all of it, at once.

Not sure this applies at all as the comparison is flawed. CiG spent a LOT of time and money on anything but game development. Mocap studio, hollywood A-list celebs, a lot of game systems that were touted as the second coming of Jesus (AI barman, various acronym technologies like SOCS and so on..), a failed FPS shooter, a second failed FPS shooter, a 3D spaceship shooting arena, etc. (the list is quite long). And yes, while there are ship interiors, I doubt this would have changed anything to the state of SC if CiG didnt add them at all. We certainly would be exactly at the same point, sans ship interiors. The problem is not there.

Navigare Necesse Est · Dec 1, 2021

MUTILADOR said:
I have been playing ED Odyssey for a year, but it was enough to test the Star Citizen alpha for a week, I will not return to ED until they create the interiors of the ship. the difference in experience despite some mistakes, is incredible. I hope ED flies in to direct the course of what the players ask for.

It is clear you have no idea what you're talking about.

kilvenny · Dec 1, 2021

Playing space games like SC or ED is akin to a hobby in its own right as considerable time goes into the game and its forums! Most people enjoy spending money on their hobby. SC encourages that gratuitously in my opinion but ED just dabbles with its ship kits/decals and paint job's. It doesn't do the small payable DLC's it does with products like Planet Coaster.

One of the things SC has tapped into well is the ability to be able to put money into the project beyond that of a game package. There is clearly a market in Space games for this approach and interestingly buying a ship in SC, buys the interior as well. For FDEV an expansion DLC to add the mechanism for ship interiors and do one small ship inclusive should be manageable in a reasonable time frame and I suspect a lucrative expansion. FD can then tap into DLC's for additional ship interiors over time creating a picture of on going development where there is always something new around the corner to keep the customer interested and their wallet open, which again SC have tapped into well.

The big difference of course is SC is leveraging north of 50 million USD in ship sales per annum to do what they do. I am not advocating FDEV adopt the SC model but I think they could leverage it a little with ship interiors or new ships in the manner they have done with ship kits. I know there is a LEP issue here, but I think for small DLC's that probably should be outside the LEP.

Agony_Aunt · Dec 1, 2021

kilvenny said:
Playing space games like SC or ED is akin to a hobby in its own right as considerable time goes into the game and its forums! Most people enjoy spending money on their hobby. SC encourages that gratuitously in my opinion but ED just dabbles with its ship kits/decals and paint job's. It doesn't do the small payable DLC's it does with products like Planet Coaster.

One of the things SC has tapped into well is the ability to be able to put money into the project beyond that of a game package. There is clearly a market in Space games for this approach and interestingly buying a ship in SC, buys the interior as well. For FDEV an expansion DLC to add the mechanism for ship interiors and do one small ship inclusive should be manageable in a reasonable time frame and I suspect a lucrative expansion. FD can then tap into DLC's for additional ship interiors over time creating a picture of on going development where there is always something new around the corner to keep the customer interested and their wallet open, which again SC have tapped into well.

The big difference of course is SC is leveraging north of 50 million USD in ship sales per annum to do what they do. I am not advocating FDEV adopt the SC model but I think they could leverage it a little with ship interiors or new ships in the manner they have done with ship kits. I know there is a LEP issue here, but I think for small DLC's that probably should be outside the LEP.

FD could do ship interiors as a DLC and still charge for customization of those interiors. You want pink interior walls on your pink Cobra? Sure, just fork over some ARX!

Navigare Necesse Est · Dec 1, 2021

Fork my Arx kinda sounds like power expression.