Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

The new license deal is perpetual. CIG had the license for the game SC. When they split the game into SQ42 and SC that became more interesting, is that one game or two etc? Then they moved to LY without removing the Cry Engine only pieces (eg scaleform), so a blended license of two products raising more questions. Then there was the fun of calling it Star Engine because they modified some Cry Engine libraries.

My read of the end result was they tidied things up and by calling it a perpetual deal, both parties "won" at some level.

BTW - Modifying someone's engine and calling it something different would require a distribution license for the base engine. That is what Amazon bought from Crytek for LY. If it didn't work like that then I could create my own wonder product and someone could come along and tweak 1 line of code and call it Star wonder product and basically nick the lot. If that licence was a perpetual distribution license for the base engine then that would have been trumpeted and it wasn't.
 
Depend of your agreement with this company. That's exactly what Crytek have done with Amazon.

Well, there are some key differences between Amazon & CIG in this case:

  • Amazon announced "full, unencumbered access to the technology". This is a rare and unusual licensing event. You'd think CIG might have mentioned such a significant coup when they announced the license in the 'Outlook' section of their annual report. But they didn't.
  • Amazon got that deal when Crytek were on their knees, prior to their apparent bailout by the Turkish government. CIG got this deal with Crytek seemingly in a better place. (Actually paying their devs, and with spare cash for suing people and all sorts ;))
  • Amazon have licensed Cryengine-derived stuff to others. CIG have not licensed any Cryengine-derived products to others. Or said that they're going to.
  • Amazon's CE product was only in competition with a failing Crytek. CIG's CE-derived products would be in competition with a resurgent Crytek, aaaaaand... Amazon. Their erstwhile partner. (It wouldn't even be that surprising if the Amazon license comes with a non-compete clause on that front).

I think the odds of CIG having got such a deal are on the unlikely side.

We don't know the scope of the last agreement between Crytek and CIG. CIG had already the right to use CE so what's the difference between the first and the last agreement ?

CIG highlighted the term 'perpetual', so presumably that.

(The actual details could play out in lots of ways. Maybe they wanted to leave the prior deal behind, with its specific stipulations and awkward legal case attached, and got a fresh one as part of the settlement. Maybe they stuck with the 3.X licensing provided by Lumberyard, and just got access to all future updates from Crytek. There are various ways they could have achieved 'perpetual' access.)
 
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Well, there are some key differences between Amazon & CIG in this case:

  • Amazon announced "full, unencumbered access to the technology". This is a rare and unusual licensing event. You'd think CIG might have mentioned such a significant coup when they announced the license in the 'Outlook' section of their annual report. But they didn't.
  • Amazon have licensed Cryengine-derived stuff to others. CIG have not licensed any Cryengine-derived products to others. Or said that they're going to.
  • Amazon's CE product was only in competition with a failing Crytek. CIG's CE-derived products would be in competition with a resurgent Crytek, aaaaaand... Amazon. Their erstwhile partner. (It wouldn't even be that surprising if the Amazon license comes with a non-compete clause on that front).
My point was about CIG possibly licensing the Star Engine (Planet tech, light API and other tech developped by CIG) in a far future (after SQ42 release), not rebranding the CryEngine/LY as is.
 
My point was about CIG possibly licensing the Star Engine (Planet tech, light API and other tech developped by CIG) in a far future (after SQ42 release), not rebranding the CryEngine/LY as is.

Yep I understood. But that only tackles this point: CIG have not licensed any Cryengine-derived products to others.

What about all the other points? ;)
 
Genuine question : how much time can it get to a newly built company to discover that Scaleform will not match the project, decide to replace it with a better tool internally done and deliver it ?

Honest answer.


There is NO GRACE PERIOD for new and upcoming companies who start out. Star Citizens prime excuse for CiGs incompetence, the "they needed to ramp up" is a slap to the face for every company on the planet which had to overcome the exact same problem and did it without the financial muscle or in the timeframe that CiG needed. What it takes is grit, smarts and determination along with an actual sound plan to make it all work. A lot of companies dont make it because they run out of mioney, time, lose critical personal along the way and just crumble long before they have a chance to become a champion that they might have the potential for. Or maybe "no grace period is wrong". Everybody who works in this kind of field understands the slow starts and necessity for building up an infrstructure....including investors BUT these investors dont get blinded or handwaved away like players. With these kind of supporters companies need to achieve certain milestones at set dates or they lose said support.

Now here comes CiG which was granted more than 1 chance, enough money to make several games from scratch and a timeframe that made it the industry joke bar none. And if you sit down and judge the results critically and objectively....there isnt a whole lot that make it stand out as a game. I m talking game mechanics, features and loops. Star Citizen takes the "I m standing up and walk around in my ship" to a new visual level but that fidelity doesnt come free....in Star Citizens case that level of visual asthetic costs hundreds of millions of dollars and a lot of time and its so apparent by now that its a shame that a lot of people continue to throw money at it. CiG has made a great tech demo appealing to the eye but a game...thats something SC is a looooong way away from and the way it looks CiG has no idea how to make it one either.

As for the time period companies have to overcome the starting problems....its eat or be eaten my friend. And I agree with the suggested notion. If a promising company or project gets terminated because they needed another 20 or 30 days or 2 or 3 million...thats a tragedy. Oftentimes the people who grant these things are not beneficial because they are nicde guys. And they also dont explain their decisions to the mob undernearth whho shuffle at the bottom in a stupor (playerbase). Usually publishers are the gatekeepers who decide what games we come to enjoy and what we all hate is the fact that these same gatekeepers who make all the decisions also riddle our games with barely tolerable things like gambling, pay to win or inflated grinds to make the mob spend more.

Crowd funding has given small companies a chance that normally never would ve had a chance to get off the ground but not because the players carry the project. Normally kickstarter project generating millions only prove public interest to the companies which didnt recognize that interest in the first place but those companies eventually take over, if not as publishers than as investors.

So Star Citizen was a once in a lifetime chance...an opportunity granted by the mob. Support and funding so massive that it enabled CiG to avoid investors and publishers completely and do what they wanted to do.

And they wasted that opportunity so thoroughly that we now have to deal with investors and reduced gameplay and STILL.....we are not even half-through. BUT...this isnt something that we only realize now.....skepticism and criticism started out pretty early in the project. That Star Citizen is still going in 2020 is because of people who decided to turn a blind eye or pick up the standard to "fight for CiG" and their efforts havent enabled CiG to produice a lot of results in progression or advancement for the price involved.

CiG has received understanding and continued support......YEARS of it in fact. They just utterly failed to use that grace period others paid for and continued to waste and poke at stuff blindly. Its pretty normal behavior for people who use resources which are not their own and if you couple that fact with another, that Chris Roberts doesnt have to justify himself to anybody, not even his backers...that explains CiGs lazy attitude and their willingness to keep the project running as it is instead of developing the game as they should. Today the "they had to build up the company first" is on the same level as "its alpha"....a weak apology that is intended to distract from the epic incompetence and waste of trust, time and resources on display.

I m not sure if you intentionally misunderstand the problem at hand or if you simply never bothered to think something to its logical conclusion. You ve got enough fire in this thread over your strange behavior so we dont need to trigger that again.

People who use the "its alpha" and "they had to build up the company first" are simply apologists who try to justify something bad or they are clueless, depending on their original motivation to post the question to begin with. And they try to present the people who oppose those notions as "haters"...the same people who mind you, paid and endured the rocky start to begin with. People who cointinued to trust CiG and granted them more and more millions to make the dream a reality.

Just....this isnt a one-way street. If CiG takes in trust, money and time it raises some kind of expectancy as to what should come out. And thats where Star Citizen reveals a massive problem because what goes in and what comes out simply doesnt align in any form. It raises suspicions and questions and by now the community which is still bothered to look is divided into people who try to find an answer (the haters) and people who turn a blind eye (fanatics). Neutrality simply isnt possible or only for a short period of time. Some people approach neutral status but they too....are not, if only in the eye of others ^^ IMO "neutrality" on this topic simply means refraining from saying what you really think or going back and forth between the two camps. Truly neutral people wouldnt bother to post to begin with so you are on that scale which only has two sides.....if you like it or not ^^

I m actually glad you ask these questions if not for your sake because face it....you wont change your mind anyway but for anybody else who might read the replies. Even I enjoy reading insights and conclusions I might have missed, logical constructs and theories that actually explain something instead of just dreaming. It doesnt matter if the post in question is pro-SC or anti-SC (and face it, if pro-SC posts actually had merrit or value Star Citizens public perception would be a lot different as it is) as long as its well formulated and plausible. Another reason why I continue to visit this thread even tho I dont have any hope left for Star Citizen to ever become a reality.

Anyway, good to have you back in force mate, the others who jumped in after you went on vaccation dont have your level of personality ^^
 
It should be pretty obvious why this thread, and discussing SC in general, draws such crowds. Nothing to do with the game, it's a soap opera.

You have a formerly well known ex-developer, that is more of a sales person, that has been out of the business 20 years after no one would give him money since he had a habit of over promising and non-delivering. Or using funds given to develop a game to make a bad movie in his vain attempt to break into hollywood.

Said developer gave up on the publishers that would no longer speak to him and went straight to the public in a last shot to make "his dream game". He strikes gold, record funding, guiness record crowd funded anything, yada yada. It's not an MMO. It's the Best Damn Space Sim Ever. It's an MMO except when dev says it's not. No forced online play. Actually, forced online play with an off shoot game for offline play.

Shock, horror, same developer with a track record of over promising and non-delivering over promises and does not deliver for the subsequent ten years of development and counting.

Meanwhile crowd funding continues well beyond the point of what the developer said they needed. Rumours abound of him hiring his wife as a director and not disclosing their relationship. Said relationship finally confirmed when rumours became too much to ignore.

Bitter old rival developer with an equally over promising track record makes some noise about said developer over-promising things that he shock horror probably can't deliver on. A big deal is made of it by developer who then forces a refund to a customer that was not asked for, the proverbial smoke indicating a fire.

A rabid fan base swarms all over any mention of their precious game online, enforcing a toxic echo chamber of non-critical comments about their precious, still undelivered, semblance of a game.

Glossy promotional videos talking about anything and everything except when they intend to release a game. A video of the developer himself struggling and failing to play his own game. Hundreds of deadlines come and go with nary a peep and nothing delivered except t-shirts and coffee mug animations.

Game publications take note of how long it is taking, the over promising and under delivering, the fact said developer not only employs his wife but also brother at director level and the mesmerising complex of shell companies and in game and real companies all bearing his name, more often than not confusingly so.

Endless marketing and promotions, in-lore essays written by marketing designed to make customers think things exist that do not. 30k+ DLC game packages. Virtual ships costing thousands of dollars that are not delivered for years, sometimes not at all. Virtual land sold before it even exists, or has a use.

Financial publications take note purely based on the amount of money "invested". Exposes show a culture of denials, sketchy behaviour by founder, his wife and co-founders, blatant lies contradicting their own sworn testimonies. Company running out of money multiple times forcing it it to seek outside investors. Parts of company sold, that was setup via crowd funding, while crowd funding continues.

Expensive purchases, hollywood mansions, Porsches, rented Monaco yachts while insisting they are "not taking pictures on the back of a yacht" while doing exactly that. More publications wonder what on earth is taking so long. Developer posts multi-page diatribes on how awesome they are and how things are actually all good and its just them being some buzzword designed to confuse laymen.

Wife and brother disappear from the previously weekly glossy promotional videos, not to be seen for over a year. Developer himself disappears until an up swell of rumours forces him to deny he's gone awol.

Haven't even touched on the game and its many hilarious bugs. There is no need. The soap opera surrounding it is far more interesting.
 
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Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
Depend of your agreement with this company. That's exactly what Crytek have done with Amazon.

You seem to be throwing around wild guesses willy nilly in an effort to rationalize your point view. Suggest you try and stick to the facts.

The amount Amazon had to pay to CryTek for the all inclusive CryEngine license including rights to market a new engine was estimated in around 50-70 USD millions. Even with a discount, given CIG was already operating in the red in 2019 and has already probably eaten away a decent chunk of the Calders investment (which, let´s not forget, it was meant to be used exclusively in marketing and launch promotion), I highly doubt CIG had the cash laying around for an operation of that caliber.
 
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Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
Didn't know the amount was so high. Then effectively, CIG licensing the Star Engine is not even an idea to consider.

To be fair, the price agreed with Amazon was probably benchmarked on the size of the business Amazon projected and agreed with CryTek at the time. Said business projection was probably going to be larger than whatever business CIG could make of it I suspect. But still even at a discount we are talking several tens of millions.
 
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The price it cost Amazon is for a perpetual, unrestricted license, so more expensive than the regular make a single game (or two if you're CIG) type.
 
Genuine question : how much time can it get to a newly built company to discover that Scaleform will not match the project, decide to replace it with a better tool internally done and deliver it ?
About 2 weeks for a competent developer with decent documentation and access to the source code. If you're evaluating the engine/SDK overall, then after the initial 2 weeks you would add Scaleform to one of a number of items that would need to be redeveloped (which in 2012 would have been a long list). If that list wasn't too long (which it was and apparent to anyone who wasn't an idiot) and you were still evaluating, then you might spend say 1 month extra to see if workarounds or additional coding showed promise.
What you shouldn't do is then go to the public (or anyone else for that matter) for funding with this knowledge, as that would be dishonest and many times so given that Scaleform was the least of CryEngine's deficiencies in 2012.
 
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it would be much appreciated
Right, back into the mix and no Glenfiddich involved (Samaroli Orkney this time).

Golgot, Ecity MTBFritz etc. I ain't getting involved in the right or wrong regarding monetary shenanigans this round! govny I see that you may have fixed the throttle issue with Moles help, I use the switch throttle bind. Did you get on top of the 'swing' problem?
Pug
 
Ok ... So I REALLY hate the system map/navigation mode. Here is a vid of me attempting to plot a course to Lorvile , and failing. I couldnt see any markers showing the route once set (well I think I set a route - maybe not) edit: I think I may have worked it out, click set route is done last, so the hops appear in the left side.


What am I missing? Also several times when I press F2 to bring up the map it simply doesnt work. No amount of mouse wheel scrolling or dragging gets anything to display on the map, well not for me anyway, is this to be expected ?
It is a mess, double click right mouse a couple of times and do a we bit of scroll wheel while going out and back into the map and eventually It Will work.

When you go to the messymap just hit clear route as a matter of course it'll zoom out to the system eventually, you'll know when you've plotted a route as it will show the plotted route in the top left hand corner, its a bit of a faff sometimes.

Hurston.PNG


Pug
 
haven't logged in lately. But I remember I saw the mouse cursor while using Hotas that move around and I didn't see it in combat videdos I watched.
I was getting that too and the only change I made was changing to fixed weapons and that annoying 'mouse cursor' move seemed to go away. It's a hard one to describe but it is bloody irritating.

Maybe my settings are wrong too. I still couldn't hit a cows rear with a shovel :)

ED on the other hand, brilliant dynamic. Gimballed , fixed, or turreted it doesn't matter, Mole your up bud...explain.
Pug
 
About 2 weeks for a competent developer with decent documentation and access to the source code. If you're evaluating the engine/SDK overall, then after the initial 2 weeks you would add Scaleform to one of a number of items that would need to be redeveloped (which in 2012 would have been a long list). If that list wasn't too long (which it was and apparent to anyone who wasn't an idiot) and you were still evaluating, then you might spend say 1 month extra to see if workarounds or additional coding showed promise.
I'd point out that many other aspects of the core game engine (the client/server main loop, the physics engine, even networking) should have been done in the first few months back in 2012, since that was the whole point of licensing an existing engine. Of course, they could not, as CE is a notorious tangle of vaguely patched together pieces of code that's probably written in German (because why not, SAP are doing that for example) - but again, every small feature they are adding is taking an incredible amount of time, compared to just any other developer around the globe. And then they discard said feature to remake it entirely after understanding their implementation was just not working - and they call that "iterations" (while us in the IT world would call that "complete incompetence"). Will they fumble into a working product ? Do we believe in the many monkeys typing on many typewriters theory that there's a non-zero probability they produce the works of Shakespeare ?
 
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