Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

I have never heard of a game under development having live users celebrating it's persistance. That's just a release. Software is out there. People are playing it.

Getting hung up on semantics, "What is release anyway?" or "What do you mean release, we're at 3.xx already" is a common theme when people want to deflect criticism.

If I told my client "You're using it already!" in response to "This software you wrote for me is buggy as all hell", he'd rightly ask for his money back.
 
Getting hung up on semantics, "What is release anyway?" or "What do you mean release, we're at 3.xx already" is a common theme when people want to deflect criticism.

If I told my client "You're using it already!" in response to "This software you wrote for me is buggy as all hell", he'd rightly ask for his money back.
That's why they try to not use "buy" but rather fantasize about "pledging" and amend their ToS to rule out "money back".
 
It's April 21st and there are five "Tentative" items on the Q1 roadmap.

tentative.jpg
 
Congratulations to 3.13 for being at least three weeks late today.
Just had another update for the PTU...live release might be nearer Friday of this week minus all the mildly interesting bits that once again have slid off the ever sloping shelf of the roadmap. Then again...it might not.

They've got nothing of interest to actually release this quarter except for the Hercules Starlifters in 3.13.x...now put further back by an additional month because of the delayed 3.13 release build. They're saving some of the stuff for Invictus week in May to make the big sales event worthwhile for the idiots who'll invariably be spending money ...another fine example of content release being controlled and dictated by marketing :)
 
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April 2013:



December 2015 (Vid now private - Reddit discussions from the time here and here)



August 2018



There used to be an upper bound cap of 150,000 UEC on how many credits you could accrue pre-launch but that was removed in 2018. There is still a 24hr limit of 25k (approx $30) per 24hrs.

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Some of the bugs on that list have been fixed, new ones have appeared.

We should, but can, only hold CIG responsible for bugs as and when they are, accumulating bugs from past and present holding them up as if they are a perpetual problem is disingenuous at best, its not a good way to make a point.

I've had a look at some of these bugs in the latest patch.

Getting out of your seat and moving around the ship during QT is no longer fraught with peril. But, with the Hammerhead there is a new bug where sometimes the outer turret door doesn't open when getting out of the turret, that's been there since 3.12. its a large Multicrew ship, the door can be opened by someone on the other side, you just have to get the copilot to run around opening everyones door for them.
Source: https://youtu.be/JkgOMow_uYM?t=190


Vehicles no longer have a seizure in ships elevators. Yea i couldn't find the external button for the lift....
Source: https://youtu.be/XLbBsUvVaqY?t=185


And the Parasite Ship on the back of the Connie now works, it docks and undocks, this is very welcome and has been a long time waiting.
Source: https://youtu.be/HvKF_ecRcso?t=15


I think they fixed the First Person weapon reload / not shooting bug too, no more "inspect" to get it to work, i'll test that later if anyone is interested.
 
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I've had a look at some of these bugs in the latest patch.

Getting out of your seat and moving around the ship during QT is no longer fraught with peril. But, with the Hammerhead there is a new bug where sometimes the outer turret door doesn't open when getting out of the turret, that's been there since 3.12. its a large Multicrew ship, the door can be opened by someone on the other side, you just have to get the copilot to run around opening everyones door for them.
Source: https://youtu.be/JkgOMow_uYM?t=190


Vehicles no longer have a seizure in ships elevators.
Source: https://youtu.be/XLbBsUvVaqY?t=185


And the Parasite Ship on the back of the Connie now works, it docks and undocks, this is very welcome and has been a long time waiting.
Source: https://youtu.be/HvKF_ecRcso?t=15


I think they fixed the First Person weapon reload / not shooting bug too, no more "inspect" to get it to work, i'll test that later if anyone is interested.
I haven't been able to test any of that stuff when I've ventured into the PTU...the elevator in Area 18 from the habs hasn't opened in any session for me so far. So, I'm trapped unless I delete and recopy my account to PTU to select another spawn area. I'll just wait for 3.13 to go live...whenever that might be. Nice that they've fixed the elevator physics in the Connies though...or at least in PTU, it's only taken them 5 years to do it. We'll see how that goes when the patch hits the live servers :)
 
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I've had a look at some of these bugs in the latest patch.

That is cool and good, but you're still dodging the initial point.

You claimed that:

there are plenty of games which are officially released and have the same sort of bugs.

If that were the case, you'd be able to show me comparable beginner's guides for them. Prominent community posts which advise caution when using such features as running, crawling, and jumping on things...

It'd be easy, you could search some up in minutes.

But you can't, because it's just not the case. It's a silly claim to make.

Why not just own that SC is a buggy alpha?

---

Getting out of your seat and moving around the ship during QT is no longer fraught with peril. But, with the Hammerhead there is a new bug where sometimes the outer turret door doesn't open when getting out of the turret, that's been there since 3.12. its a large Multicrew ship, the door can be opened by someone on the other side, you just have to get the copilot to run around opening everyones door for them.
Source: https://youtu.be/JkgOMow_uYM?t=190


Vehicles no longer have a seizure in ships elevators. Yea i couldn't find the external button for the lift....
Source: https://youtu.be/XLbBsUvVaqY?t=185


And the Parasite Ship on the back of the Connie now works, it docks and undocks, this is very welcome and has been a long time waiting.
Source: https://youtu.be/HvKF_ecRcso?t=15


I think they fixed the First Person weapon reload / not shooting bug too, no more "inspect" to get it to work, i'll test that later if anyone is interested.

The interesting thing about SC bugs is that so many of them speak to systemic issues. Issues with collision detection, with the physics grid system, with server health etc.

Which is why your point about some bug fixes being ticked off the list (if while acknowledging regressions, and new bugs), doesn't really address the above argument. The laundry list of bugs is too long to be impacted meaningfully by that. And too many are old familiars, resisting past fixes, or left unresolved since a feature's introduction (hello ship-propelling wind ;))

It's lovely that they seem to have fixed the vehicles in elevators issue finally, for example. (I acknowledge that they do seem to have, because the subreddit is rejoicing and there are lots of examples ;). I'm afraid singular tests don't really cut it as proof of robustness. Too many testing environments, too many variables, too many potential points of failure ;))

But how much do you want to bet that, once 3.13 is live, we'll see issues with elevators and vehicles again though? Both as individual features, and as features combined? (Given they've 'fixed' vehicles and elevators before, it might be a courageous bet ;))

Or that players will once again incur untimely deaths while walking freely about a ship in flight?

Or that the dockable ship will have further travails with docking? (Not counting all the other unresolved stuff like the Connie despawning when they're apart ;))

£5 to the charity of the other's choice for each? Call it when 3.14 goes live? :) (In whichever quarter that happens to occur ;))
 
That is cool and good, but you're still dodging the initial point.

You claimed that:



If that were the case, you'd be able to show me comparable beginner's guides for them. Prominent community posts which advise caution when using such features as running, crawling, and jumping on things...

It'd be easy, you could search some up in minutes.

But you can't, because it's just not the case. It's a silly claim to make.

Why not just own that SC is a buggy alpha?

---



The interesting thing about SC bugs is that so many of them speak to systemic issues. Issues with collision detection, with the physics grid system, with server health etc.

Which is why your point about some bug fixes being ticked off the list (if while acknowledging regressions, and new bugs), doesn't really address the above argument. The laundry list of bugs is too long to be impacted meaningfully by that. And too many are old familiars, resisting past fixes, or left unresolved since a feature's introduction (hello ship-propelling wind ;))

It's lovely that they seem to have fixed the vehicles in elevators issue finally, for example. (I acknowledge that they do seem to have, because the subreddit is rejoicing and there are lots of examples ;). I'm afraid singular tests don't really cut it as proof of robustness. Too many testing environments, too many variables, too many potential points of failure ;))

But how much do you want to bet that, once 3.13 is live, we'll see issues with elevators and vehicles again though? Both as individual features, and as features combined? (Given they've 'fixed' vehicles and elevators before, it might be a courageous bet ;))

Or that players will once again incur untimely deaths while walking freely about a ship in flight?

Or that the dockable ship will have further travails with docking? (Not counting all the other unresolved stuff like the Connie despawning when they're apart ;))

£5 to the charity of the other's choice for each? Call it when 3.14 goes live? :) (In whichever quarter that happens to occur ;))
What if and whataboutism, there are never guarantees of anything in life.
 
I think it's well past time to finish my reply to this:

Elite Dangerous fan, and long time Star Citizen fan here, backed in Feb 2013.

Without wanting to throw a grenade into this, what do people here actually think of Star Citizen? i like both these games, i don't see them as competitors, they are different enough that there is room for both.

I'll give an explanation of what i think of it later :) it has its good points and its bad points.

First some background:

Back at the end of 2012, I backed three games on Kickstarter. One was an indie game from a truly start-up "garage developer" creating their first game that had a cute, though ambitious, idea I liked the look of. The second was for a sequel to a game franchise I liked, with an established development company and a known name heading the project. The third was a "spiritual successor" to a game franchise I liked, with an established development company, a known name heading the project, and most importantly: the game was nearly ready for alpha, and "only" needed a few million to flesh out the game for release in 2014.

They were, in order Stonehearth, Elite Dangerous, and Star Citizen.

At the time, I was riding high on the results from previous "early access" titles like Minecraft, Kerbal Space Program, and at the time, Mechwarrior Online, my "cockpit game." MWO is the reason why I learned how to program scripts for my CH HOTAS, because the game was designed as a FPS with mechs, and it took considerable effort to adapt my 2nd order controllers to work well with a game designed to use 1st order controller input. So after quite few non-game Kickstarter successes, two failures, and one "failure" that eventually made good on their promises nine years later and then some, I decided to "save" a little money by backing these three games.

Stonehearth I backed because I liked playing "god view" building games, the visual style looked cute, and they had a novel approach to the genre: the construction would be completely AI driven, who would also have their own personalities.

Elite Dangerous I backed because I liked the original Elite, I was a huge fan of its sequel: Frontier: Elite 2, but was a bit disappointed with Frontier: First Encounters. There was one problem with it: it wouldn't have all the features of FE2 at launch. In fact, based on their stated development plans at the time, it wasn't likely to even approach that level until 2020 at the earliest, and I thought they were being overly optimistic at the time. So I backed it, and added it to my watch list.

Star Citizen I backed because Piranna Games, creators of MWO, had already started walking back from their earlier promises, many of which were features that had attracted me to the game in the first place. It was gradually devolving into Battletech themed area-based FPS, and I wanted another "cockpit game" to fill the gap between when I tired of MWO, and when I felt ED would add planetary landings to the game. Unlike ED at the time, which was just a skunkworks project, Chris Roberts claimed he had already done the hard phase of game development: creating the game engine and core game loops, and was at the "expensive" phase of game development: hiring enough artists to flesh out the game world.

If only I had known at the time that Chris Roberts was lying through his teeth in that Kickstarter Pitch.

As 2013 progressed, I was tracking the development of all three games. Stonehearth would periodically release their latest Alpha candidate, which added upon the existing framework of the game. I’d test the release for a few hours, submit any bugs I found, and move on. In ED, I was able to read the archives of the game loops that Frontier was planning on adding to the game... eventually... no promises or guarantees. Meanwhile, over in SC land, Chris Roberts was making grandiose promises about what would be in the game at launch in Nov 2014 for a few million more, and fantastic videos to sell them with... but for some reason, I was paying more and more attention to ED rather than SC.

As the end of 2013 approached, and along with it the anticipated SC and ED Alphas, I started paying attention a bit more to what was going on at SC. Unlike ED, which was about to release its first phase of the Alpha, SC just kept making more and promises and videos to sell them with... and none of those promises were about the core feature of SC: Squadron 42. The promised time for the SC Alpha came and went, and I'd barely noticed, because I had ED to distract me.

After all, at the start of 2014, ED was in Alpha! It had VR! The videos I could see looked fantastic! I had tired of MWO a lot sooner than I'd anticipated, and I was no longer spending money on micro-transactions in that game. And then came ED's "hurry up and take my money" moment. What I was seeing in the Alphas looked fun, just like the Minecraft and Kerbal Space Program looked fun. And Frontier offered to upgrade my beta access to Alpha, along with an LEP. So I joined, and much to my delight (and later dismay) it was everything I'd hoped it would be. I say dismay, because over the years Frontier had dumbed down ED considerably. Good from a business standpoint, I'm sure, but bad for me.

By the end of 2014, ED had had its full release, and I was having fun. There were parts it could do better, and there were parts that were better before release, but had been watered down by Frontier, but SC, meanwhile, had released a "hanger module," and an "arena shooter." Not the long-delayed promised Alpha. Not the originally promised release. Not Squadron 42. A hanger module, to look at the art assets, and an arcade game.

Stonehearth was also still in alpha development, and slowly adding more and more gameloops and elements to their game. Its pitched release date had already passed as well. Each build was fun to play, but only had about 10-20 hours worth of gameplay before things became repetitive in a save. Still, it had procedurally created maps, basic AI, building planning tools, and a handful enemies to fight.

By the end of 2015, I started to realize something seemed very off about SC's development. By that time, I'd participated in quite a few playable alpha and early access games, so I was fairly familiar with how successful ones operated. SC was pretty much the antithesis of those games, with the sole exception of tons of successful macrotransactions. So I started digging.

Stonehearth, meanwhile, released in 2015... to early access. It was still adding game loops and content, and the AI "hearthlings" were starting to develop personalities. It was kind of fun to "people watch," in that game. The developers released to early access because things were taking longer than they expected, and they needed to bring in more players if they wanted to continue development, because the original $750,000 from the Kickstarter was almost gone. They also needed to redo the AI scaffolding routines. Players were planning far more complex structures than the AI could handle.

Throughout 2016, investigating SC became a hobby of mine... primarily because the game I'd backed in 2012, wasn't anywhere to be seen. And what I learned was alarming. I'd learned about Chris Roberts' previous history of project mismanagement. I learned about Chris Roberts' sudden displays of wealth. I learned about Chris Roberts' attempts to keep his blatant nepotism a secret. I learned about how the terms of service kept changing, becoming more and more restrictive. And I learned that that I couldn't trust CIG whenever they made a claim about something, especially when they claimed that Squadron 42 was almost ready for release.

Stonehearth, meanwhile, continued in early access, adding more features and fleshing out the AI hearthlings. They now remembered events in the game, and even had "conversations" that would be displayed as pictures. My favorite moment in the game was watching a hearthling run off in tears, after another one insensitively reminded her of her pet rabbit, which had died during a goblin raid early in the game. Thankfully, a military patrol I had set up had just killed some zombies in the direction she fled, otherwise...

In 2017 I had my "Hurry up and refund my money" moment in regards to SC. It wasn't the Crytek lawsuit. It wasn't learning about the fact that Chris Roberts had no near-Alpha build of the game in 2012, nor a team of developers, but a Cryengine machinima video that had been made by Crytek... for free. It wasn’t the evidence deeply unethical activities in regards to Star Citizen by his long-time business partner Ortwin. It was the dozens of shell companies. This screamed of a Hollywood Accounting scheme, which is way of draining profits from a project to rip off the people who worked on the project, which I considerable to be thoroughly unethical (but sadly legal) business practice. Only in this case, it was pretty clear that the Roberts Clan were the ones who were benefiting from this, and the people being ripped off were SC backers. Part of Chris Roberts' initial pitch, after all, was that money contributed would go 100% into SC's development, and not into the pockets of evil publishers.

Stonehearth, on the other hand, seemed to be nearing full release. Which alarmed some of the original backers, because a few of the more ambitious stretch goals didn't seem to be even in development. This was fine with me, primarily because I wasn't interested in the promised multi-player, and the core game was pretty decent for the $15 I'd payed for it. It finally released in 2018, and after a couple of bug fixes, the very small team of developers announced that development of the game was completed.

So what do I think I think of Star Citizen? I think it began life in 2010 as an honest desire of a used car salesman named Chris Roberts to relive his glory days as a “rockstar” game developer and Hollywood insider, and finally build his dream game... who had blamed all his previous failures on everyone but himself.

It became a dubiously ethical attempt to make the game when he, along with his long-time business partner Ortwin, convinced a failing and desperate Crytek to provide a game engine license and labor for a machinima video... for free. I’m sure the fact that Ortwin was Crytek’s legal counsel at the time played into that ludicrously lop-sided deal... which Chris Roberts would later reneged on.

Roberts then shopped his idea around to various publishers, with no success. The industry had matured the 20;years he was out of the business, and they recognized a bad pitch when they saw one. His previous track record didn’t help him any. But he learned from his failures, and turned to a new model of funding, one that would bypass those “evil” publishers and their long memories and practical expertise: crowd funding.

It became a downright deceptive attempt to make his dream game when he re-edited the Crytek machinima video to create the illusion that the game was much further along in development than it really was. And his deceptive sales pitch succeeded far beyond his wildest dreams. Grandiose empty promises and slick marketing had succeeded where traditional pathways had failed. And that is the business plan that CIG follows to this day.

Star Citizen isn’t an early access game. It isn’t a “playable now” alpha. It’s a whitewashed tomb, a fair face that disguises the rot within. It’s a facade that is similar enough to an actual game to keep the money flowing. The focus has always been on the art and visuals, because people associate polished visuals with a polished game. Very rarely do consumers see what games look like during the core tech building phase, because a game development company’s focus is on the tech, not the visuals. That comes later, when the tech is finalized, and they know how many resources: time, money, server side, and client side, is left for visuals and other fluff, CIG wastes their resources on visuals, and hopes to cramming the core tech into what’s left over.

CIG is approaching half a billion dollars in funding, most of which is via crowdfunding. I’ve seen games whose core tech is more developed, more dynamic, and much more advanced, from small developers with less than a percentage of what CIG has wasted today. Seeing what other games can do, I gave to wonder why CIG struggles so much.

But at least the screenshots look nice.
 
Subtle station advertisement in Odyssey...love it. No other game or developer has acknowledged the existence of pure emergent content in this way...perhaps Jumpgate with the Kentucky fried Chickens clan... but I'm almost too old to remember that far back :)

I've been testing out the new ED : Odyssey HCS voice pack integration for Voice Attack...liking it so far (y) I've been using Voice Attack with the HCS voice packs in ED (and SC) for so long, I'd be lost without it.

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