Submit hopping and mass inhibition

It is time you had done something about this stupid practice.

For the uninitiated, submit hopping means submitting to interdictions, getting no FSD cooldown at all and then immediately going back to SC or charging a hyperspace jump.

Why is it that this near-exploit is still in the game?

"I clearly do not have the skill to break this interdiction, but I still have this way to cheese it out. I don't get punished for submitting."

For whatever reason I decide to have a little chat with a CMDR in normal space. He happens to be in a ship with a higher mass inhibition factor which for some reason means that I have exactly 7 seconds (minus time to deploy hardpoints, manouvre; plus 5 seconds of FSD charging for the CMDR in question) to do any significant damage (with probably 4 pips to sys), let alone damage his drives to stop him from getting away. Even if the latter happens, he still has 15 seconds to log out and leave me in the dust, something I even don't get notified of unlike low/high wakes. Particularly frustrating against Anacondas that you often cannot kill through hull damage alone - and apparently destroying the power plant is no longer going to destroy the ship in future patches, further adding to the frustration.

Submitting to interdictions is thus pretty broken. Especially with the upcoming change to sub-target focus, a major overhaul of the interdiction game absolutely needs to happen. All I want is a fair shot at that CMDR's property.

Then there is the arbitrary and clearly not thought through system that will effectively prevent any ship with a smaller mass inhibition factor from doing anything to a higher MIF ship, should that target choose to submit or be encountered outside an interdiction. There is no meaningful way to interact, people with bigger ships automatically have advantage and an almost instant way to disappear, before skill even comes into play.

My suggestion:

Apply a cooldown to interdiction submitting that is close or equal to the normal interdiction win/loss to give a fair chance of doing jack to the assailant. You should be rewarded for skill, not lack of skill.

Apply mass inhibition to interdicted ships much like the current mass inhibition system, but additionally apply mass inhibition to ships that have been interdicted, a form of FSD scrambling emanating from the assailant. High Wakes should still be unaffected.

Increase the log out time slightly and add a notification to the players targeting the vessel doing it. The current system is nothing short of an exploit, especially against pirates that try to have meaningful interaction and have their good will exploited.
 
Increase the log out time slightly and add a notification to the players targeting the vessel doing it. The current system is nothing short of an exploit, especially against pirates that try to have meaningful interaction and have their good will exploited.

Something like You are being hailed, it would be impolite to leave now :p
 
Something like You are being hailed, it would be impolite to leave now :p

Well, yeah, but ultimately you're being hailed by someone who committed an offence by pulling you over and who probably wants to kill you, and/or rob you (a far second). From the victim's perspective, "impolite" is kinda irrelevant. If one cannot fight (trader, not warship), and one *can* leave, one *does* leave.

This thread is basically "how come people aren't being stupid? why won't they line up and quietly let me shoot them?"
 
Being in Open you take the risk of being shot. This thread is merely about the exploit-like mechanics that do not warrant reward for skill.
 
Well, yeah, but ultimately you're being hailed by someone who committed an offence by pulling you over and who probably wants to kill you, and/or rob you (a far second). From the victim's perspective, "impolite" is kinda irrelevant. If one cannot fight (trader, not warship), and one *can* leave, one *does* leave.

You realise I was joking.. tongue in cheek.. this guy -> :p
 
My opinion is that the current rate of interdictions is definitely higher now than in previous versions (I have been playing since Feb 15). My average playing session is around 3 hours and I play in Mobius group.

I will always "submit/hop" as I build my ships for trade, not for combat. I find the mini game to escape the interdiction long winded sometimes especially when it happens 2km from the station.

So basically, long live "submit/hop"!! Its part of the game - not an exploit.
 
My opinion is that the current rate of interdictions is definitely higher now than in previous versions (I have been playing since Feb 15). My average playing session is around 3 hours and I play in Mobius group.

I will always "submit/hop" as I build my ships for trade, not for combat. I find the mini game to escape the interdiction long winded sometimes especially when it happens 2km from the station.

So basically, long live "submit/hop"!! Its part of the game - not an exploit.

Do you not realize the risk you are taking by light-fitting your ship and then attempting to trade with it? You have your potential reward which is the profit you get from delivering your cargo and the risk is being caught with your pants down, if you happen to lose an interdiction.

What you suggest is that the punishment you take for pulling the short straw should be non-existent - a "zero risk endeavour"?

Is this Elite: Dangerless yet?
 
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Do you not realize the risk you are taking by light-fitting your ship and then attempting to trade with it? You have your potential reward which is the profit you get from delivering your cargo and the risk is being caught with your pants down, if you happen to lose an interdiction.

What you suggest is that the punishment you take for pulling the short straw should be non-existent - a "zero risk endeavour"?

Is this Elite: Dangerless yet?

He is not saying that. In fact he is reinforcing the fact that for any trader, time equals money. The interdiction-submit-hop, is a time sink. Any trader will tell you that being interedicted multiple times on route to your destination is more than enough punishment if you do not want to engage in combat. Just because you don't get to quench your thirst for blood isn't a reflection on traders, but rather on yourself. We aren't here to be fodder for sycophants, we are trying to play the game our way. You can try and force us by interdicting us, but we have an option open to us to circumvent combat and not waste too much time.
 
Submitting is a good idea, it allows both parties to come out of interdiction without damage. The problem is the ability to high wake out quickly.

However, before they "fix" that, i'd like to see trade ships become a lot tankier. If you are expecting traders to play in Open and take the risk of interdiction, then they have to have a way out. If high wake isn't an option, then they are effectively dead to anyone who interdicts them. And i'm not talking about traders who fly shieldless here, i'm talking about those who fly with decent shields. Any half decent multi-role or combat ship can strip the shields off any trade ship in a matter of seconds. They have no chance without high wake. They are just too slow and weak. Low wake can be possible if you don't get mass locked, but if mass locked you are in trouble.

Just keep in mind when wanting changes Muffindrake, the game has to be enjoyable for both sides. You might want to solve an inbalance with piracy at the moment, but you don't want to go too far in favour of it, otherwise you'll stop seeing traders altogether.
 
Submitting is a good idea, it allows both parties to come out of interdiction without damage. The problem is the ability to high wake out quickly.

However, before they "fix" that, i'd like to see trade ships become a lot tankier. If you are expecting traders to play in Open and take the risk of interdiction, then they have to have a way out. If high wake isn't an option, then they are effectively dead to anyone who interdicts them. And i'm not talking about traders who fly shieldless here, i'm talking about those who fly with decent shields. Any half decent multi-role or combat ship can strip the shields off any trade ship in a matter of seconds. They have no chance without high wake. They are just too slow and weak. Low wake can be possible if you don't get mass locked, but if mass locked you are in trouble.

Just keep in mind when wanting changes Muffindrake, the game has to be enjoyable for both sides. You might want to solve an inbalance with piracy at the moment, but you don't want to go too far in favour of it, otherwise you'll stop seeing traders altogether.

I specifically excluded high waking from my suggestion, as you can doubtlessly read above. As you have correctly assessed, it is mainly the FSD cooldown which gives you an effective 7-9 seconds of doing any damage, that is if your MIF is lower than the trader's. As only the FSD cooldown is affected by my suggestion and not high waking, there is still plenty room for combat avoidance. I'm not asking for an astronomical cooldown, I am asking for a fair shot at bigger ships.

The best way for trader ships to avoid combat is still avoiding interdictions altogether either through winning them, emergency drops or fooling the pirate/player killer to follow you into a certain direction before turning away and high waking.

There currently isn't enough time for a pirate to effectively disable drives of larger ships, should they choose to submit hop.
 
There currently isn't enough time for a pirate to effectively disable drives of larger ships, should they choose to submit hop.

Agreed, but as i said, there needs to be a possible win for either assuming they were to increase the time it takes to escape a submitted interdiction or something. My suggestion is make trade ships tougher (because at the moment, they are among the weakest ships out there - A type 9 with A8 shields has weaker shields than an Anaconda with A7 and half the hull strength. Surely the Type 9 should be able to take a hell of a beating?
 
Agreed, but as i said, there needs to be a possible win for either assuming they were to increase the time it takes to escape a submitted interdiction or something. My suggestion is make trade ships tougher (because at the moment, they are among the weakest ships out there - A type 9 with A8 shields has weaker shields than an Anaconda with A7 and half the hull strength. Surely the Type 9 should be able to take a hell of a beating?

Making trade ships tougher is obviously beneficial to everyone. It should be done.
 
I agree that tweaks are desirable but I don't particularly agree with *these* proposed tweaks.

Some alternate ideas:

* Submitting puts the FSD on the short timer for a low-wake escape, but on the long timer for a high-wake escape.

* Make mass inhibition cumulative, so multiple smaller ships can inhibit a single larger ship.

* Add an FSD scrambler module (utility slot?). Lots of ways to do this... you could make it like a discovery scanner ping (has charge-up and cooldown, completely resets the target's FSD charge... but then you have to wait for the cooldown before you can fire it again). Or you could make it so that continuously "firing" the module prevents the FSD charge from advancing, but generates a lot of heat. Or lots of other things.
 
I agree that tweaks are desirable but I don't particularly agree with *these* proposed tweaks.

Some alternate ideas:

* Submitting puts the FSD on the short timer for a low-wake escape, but on the long timer for a high-wake escape.

* Make mass inhibition cumulative, so multiple smaller ships can inhibit a single larger ship.

* Add an FSD scrambler module (utility slot?). Lots of ways to do this... you could make it like a discovery scanner ping (has charge-up and cooldown, completely resets the target's FSD charge... but then you have to wait for the cooldown before you can fire it again). Or you could make it so that continuously "firing" the module prevents the FSD charge from advancing, but generates a lot of heat. Or lots of other things.

So like Eve's webbing.
 
It's hard to argue against the idea that not even trying is better than almost winning. The FSD cooldown in that regard is a little wonky.
Agreed, but as i said, there needs to be a possible win for either assuming they were to increase the time it takes to escape a submitted interdiction or something. My suggestion is make trade ships tougher (because at the moment, they are among the weakest ships out there - A type 9 with A8 shields has weaker shields than an Anaconda with A7 and half the hull strength. Surely the Type 9 should be able to take a hell of a beating?
Making trade ships tougher is obviously beneficial to everyone. It should be done.
Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Trade ships are trade ships. Profitable. Vulnerable. Marginally more shielded than a mediocre viper.
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If you wanted to trade in a ship that was tougher and more capable of defending itself or more defensive in general, we have these awesome multipurpose ships such as the asp, clipper, python, and anaconda. Slightly less profitable, much less vulnerable.
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As easy as it may seem to just roll out defensive buffs for trade ships, let's remember that the trade ships are not meant to see combat. Personally I think it should be extremely uncommon for a trade ship to get out of a pirating situation. They should give up cargo and pray they don't get destroyed for fun.
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I think if the trader wanted more of a chance to fight or escape, they should take a ship more capable of defending itself, such as the four provided.
 
It's hard to argue against the idea that not even trying is better than almost winning. The FSD cooldown in that regard is a little wonky.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Trade ships are trade ships. Profitable. Vulnerable. Marginally more shielded than a mediocre viper.
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If you wanted to trade in a ship that was tougher and more capable of defending itself or more defensive in general, we have these awesome multipurpose ships such as the asp, clipper, python, and anaconda. Slightly less profitable, much less vulnerable.
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As easy as it may seem to just roll out defensive buffs for trade ships, let's remember that the trade ships are not meant to see combat. Personally I think it should be extremely uncommon for a trade ship to get out of a pirating situation. They should give up cargo and pray they don't get destroyed for fun.
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I think if the trader wanted more of a chance to fight or escape, they should take a ship more capable of defending itself, such as the four provided.

In that case trade ships should be more profitable than they currently are (carry more, higher jump range) - a t9 can barely carry more than a conda while the latter submit hops for days, due to superior shielding. Also has more jump range.
 
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i was always wondering why a fsd-interdictor does not work outside of sc. that would be my most loved option. make it possible to "kill" frameshift-charges with an interdictor, give it a range like scanners, maybe add additional heating/hull damage to it, and make it only working with hardpoints not deployed... anyways, you would have the chance to let somebody not wake out ... great for pirating wings especially.
 
In that case trade ships should be more profitable than they currently are (carry more, higher jump range) - a t9 can barely carry more than a conda while the latter submit hops for days, due to superior shielding. Also has more jump range.
Last edited by Muffindrake; Today at 5:14 AM. Reason: I a part
Trade ships are much cheaper to fit than the equivalent cargo capacity multipurpose, aren't they? This counts for something, a lot more than what most people give credit for.
 
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